Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS) | Golden Skate

Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I'm still coming to grips with why people are up in arms over Chan losing the FS to Ten due to major errors, when Kostner was placed ahead in the SP over clean skates by Murakami and Osmond and a clean Li in the FS, in spite of falls/pop, and the Germans placed ahead in the FS over 2 virtually-clean Canadian teams in spite of multiple major errors.

Clearly Chan is a better skater with a better program than Ten and got good (but not his best) PCS which rightfully wasn't not enough to win the FS (but enough overall). Clearly Kostner is a better skater than Murakami/Osmond/Li and got higher PCS which was still enough to lead in the SP and beat Li in the FS. Clearly the Germans are a better pair than D/R and MT/M, and their PCS allowed them to overtake the Canadians overall.

So (general Chan hating aside) why are people more outraged at a PCS-superior unclean skater rightfully losing the FS to a clean skater, than a PCS-superior Kostner/Germans with errors winning the SP/FS over clean skaters? Seems like a similar scenario, so why the double standard?
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
For me, what distinguishes Kostner's performance in the SP vs. Chan's performance in the LP is that Kostner, even though she made the single mistake, never let the program go. She skated like she never made the mistake, with full-body interpretation and commitment to the music and choreography throughout. Plus, she only made one mistake. Overall impression of the program was not that much affected. I am OK with high PCS in this situation.

With Chan, it was not only the multiple, glaring mistakes, which had a much greater impact on the overall impression of his program than a single mistake like Kostner's SP. It wasn't only that. It was also the fact that all the mistakes really seemed to have affected Chan's performance of the program. He tensed up. His choreography seemed more rote, he seemed like he was going through the motions, his movements much less expansive. Projection to the audience went down. If we compare Chan's performance at Worlds to performance of La Boheme like he did at Rostelecom Cup this year, there is a world of difference between the two. Is it wrong that I want PCS to be negatively affected when Chan skates a tense, distracted performance like he did at Worlds?

I haven't fully watched the pairs event at Worlds so I'm not going to comment on that.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Give up your campaign in defense of Chan, it is not going to get you anywhere. Kostner and Asada did not make as many errors and did not skate as poorly as Chan in the LP by a long ways, their couple errors did not disrupt the program like Chan's disaesterous last 3 minutes of skating did, and the performances of Murakami and Li while good where nowhere the brilliant performance of Ten, or even as strong as the Fernandez and Hanyu LPs were.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I agree with pangtongfan. It's no use defending Chan when Chan himself has been unable to convince skating fans that he deserved that medal. Give it up, canadianskaterguy. You're beating a dead horse, and I am an equine lover.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Also, canadianskaterguy, your forum name and this thread are going to get your in trouble with the Chan haters as well.

Chan's scores were over-inflated which allowed him to win as he gave up on the performance in the LP and his SP score was too high, even as clean as it was as that didn't deserve the GOEs it got. Ten's scores were inflated to compensate for what the judges had given Chan because, well, they realized what they had done...
Kostner's SP score was a little inflated (should have gotten < on the 3T) and it was a shame about the pop (which was penalized in the TES) and the 3S in the LP but she NEVER gave up on the performance in either program and her LP must have been amazing in person because the crowd went wild throughout her program in various places and even on a streaming feed, you could FEEL the program. That says to me that it was INCREDIBLY well presented.
 

Leonardo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'm still coming to grips with why people are up in arms over Chan losing the FS to Ten due to major errors, when Kostner was placed ahead in the SP over clean skates by Murakami and Osmond and a clean Li in the FS, in spite of falls/pop, and the Germans placed ahead in the FS over 2 virtually-clean Canadian teams in spite of multiple major errors.

Clearly Chan is a better skater with a better program than Ten and got good (but not his best) PCS which rightfully wasn't not enough to win the FS (but enough overall). Clearly Kostner is a better skater than Murakami/Osmond/Li and got higher PCS which was still enough to lead in the SP and beat Li in the FS. Clearly the Germans are a better pair than D/R and MT/M, and their PCS allowed them to overtake the Canadians overall.

So (general Chan hating aside) why are people more outraged at a PCS-superior unclean skater rightfully losing the FS to a clean skater, than a PCS-superior Kostner/Germans with errors winning the SP/FS over clean skaters? Seems like a similar scenario, so why the double standard?

Kostner had a few major errors. Chan was a complete disaster.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Give up your campaign in defense of Chan, it is not going to get you anywhere. Kostner and Asada did not make as many errors and did not skate as poorly as Chan in the LP by a long ways, their couple errors did not disrupt the program like Chan's disaesterous last 3 minutes of skating did, and the performances of Murakami and Li while good where nowhere the brilliant performance of Ten, or even as strong as the Fernandez and Hanyu LPs were.

It's not just in defense of Chan, it's holding all disciplines to the same standard. Let's take a look at Chan's/Kostner's/Germans' errors:

Kostner - a fall in the SP ; a triple downgraded with a fall + triple turned to a single in the LP
Chan - a clean SP ; a fall on a lutz, a triple under-rotated with a fall (and on a 3A, not an easy 3S) + a stepout on a 3F-3S sequence + a triple turned into a double
Germans - a clean SP ; a fall on what counts as a double; a triple-triple turned to a double-double, a two-footed throw

Yes, the NUMBER of errors was great for Chan than Kostner/the Germans, but the severity of errors, collectively, was about the same. And note that Chan's were on harder jumping passes than Kostner's. The difference is, Chan actually lost his segment with these errors, and Kostner and the Germans earned PCS that placed them higher than those with cleaner skates.

Also if you want to talk about disrupting a program, Kostner's fall was at the end, disrupting her final pose with the music and her fall was the last thing the judges saw. As for the Germans, I think we can all agree that they tightened up throughout their program the way Chan did, and yet, like Chan, their PCS didn't really suffer for it, even with the errors.

I think comparing Kostner (excellent PCS) to Murakami (good but not great PCS) is a fair example of comparing Chan (excellent PCS) to Ten (good but not great PCS).
Kostner: fell in the SP; popped a loop and fell on a downgraded 3S at the end of her FS
Murakami: clean SP; under-rotated both loops and turned a 2A into a single A.
Clearly, Murakami's errors were collectively less severe. But since Kostner is viewed as a far better skater she can skate an SP and and FS, both with falls, and still place second over a skater with a few URs (thanks to an 8.5 PCS advantage in the FS.
It's pretty odd that the skater with the 4th best TES in the SP and 6th best TES in the LP gets the silver medal, and nobody questions her PCS holding her up.

I'm not defending Chan's PCS, I'm saying that people seem to think the PCS discrepancy between error-packed Germans/Kostner over a relatively cleaner MT&M/Murakami should be a big gap, but somehow when Chan makes errors over a relatively cleaner Ten it's a huge deal.
 

babayaga

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Could it be that neither Kostner nor the Germans won? Chan walked away with the title and it is a lot more significant than placing second. It is only natural that a world champion with multiple errors causes a lot more controversy than a second-place finisher.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Entire post

You're still just counting errors as opposed to also looking at how each skater skated outside of the errors.

Kostner's fall in the LP was very disruptive, but it was literally right at the end and lasted only a few seconds. Everything before that was mesmerizing, even with the pop. While Chan was tense and out of it for FAR longer, pretty much a disaster for the entire program after he landed his first two jumping passes.

Big difference.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
It's not just in defense of Chan, it's holding all disciplines to the same standard. Let's take a look at Chan's/Kostner's/Germans' errors:

Kostner - a fall in the SP ; a triple downgraded with a fall + triple turned to a single in the LP
Chan - a clean SP ; a fall on a lutz, a triple under-rotated with a fall (and on a 3A, not an easy 3S) + a stepout on a 3F-3S sequence + a triple turned into a double
Germans - a clean SP ; a fall on what counts as a double; a triple-triple turned to a double-double, a two-footed throw

Yes, the NUMBER of errors was great for Chan than Kostner/the Germans, but the severity of errors, collectively, was about the same. And note that Chan's were on harder jumping passes than Kostner's. The difference is, Chan actually lost his segment with these errors, and Kostner and the Germans earned PCS that placed them higher than those with cleaner skates.

Also if you want to talk about disrupting a program, Kostner's fall was at the end, disrupting her final pose with the music and her fall was the last thing the judges saw. As for the Germans, I think we can all agree that they tightened up throughout their program the way Chan did, and yet, like Chan, their PCS didn't really suffer for it, even with the errors.

I think comparing Kostner (excellent PCS) to Murakami (good but not great PCS) is a fair example of comparing Chan (excellent PCS) to Ten (good but not great PCS).
Kostner: fell in the SP; popped a loop and fell on a downgraded 3S at the end of her FS
Murakami: clean SP; under-rotated both loops and turned a 2A into a single A.
Clearly, Murakami's errors were collectively less severe. But since Kostner is viewed as a far better skater she can skate an SP and and FS, both with falls, and still place second over a skater with a few URs (thanks to an 8.5 PCS advantage in the FS.
It's pretty odd that the skater with the 4th best TES in the SP and 6th best TES in the LP gets the silver medal, and nobody questions her PCS holding her up.

I'm not defending Chan's PCS, I'm saying that people seem to think the PCS discrepancy between error-packed Germans/Kostner over a relatively cleaner MT&M/Murakami should be a big gap, but somehow when Chan makes errors over a relatively cleaner Ten it's a huge deal.

The problem for me is that Chan had multiple errors in one program. I can pretty much live with a fall in one program and still evaluate the rest of the program. I would have given Dai the Olympic title.

But what I can't stand is when I start seeing multiple errors in the program. Chan had three very glaring errors in his long and then a double jump. The stumble was hands down if I remember. Its a huge difference between Kostner's errors (only one of which affected the overall impression of the program, the pop didn't affect the flow)
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Could it be that neither Kostner nor the Germans won? Chan walked away with the title and it is a lot more significant than placing second. It is only natural that a world champion with multiple errors causes a lot more controversy than a second-place finisher.

I certainly agree with this. When you win a World Championship with a wreck of a FS like Chan did, it signals that the rest of the field must have surely bombed badly - but that was not the case, the 2nd place finisher had the two programs of his life. In the ladies, the World Champion is not only a world-class skater but also delivered two clean programs - her winning and running away with it was justified. In pairs too, V/T were the class of the field and won. Placing 2nd at Worlds does not make you World champion, it means someone was better than you. Given that, it's ok for a really great skater with errors to place 2nd, because no one is corresponding their performances as those of being the best in the World. Make sense?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Duhamel and Radford should have won the silver medal. Savchenko and Solkowy's performance, like Bolero itself -- I though it would never end.
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
It's not just in defense of Chan, it's holding all disciplines to the same standard. Let's take a look at Chan's/Kostner's/Germans' errors:

Kostner - a fall in the SP ; a triple downgraded with a fall + triple turned to a single in the LP
Chan - a clean SP ; a fall on a lutz, a triple under-rotated with a fall (and on a 3A, not an easy 3S) + a stepout on a 3F-3S sequence + a triple turned into a double
Germans - a clean SP ; a fall on what counts as a double; a triple-triple turned to a double-double, a two-footed throw

Yes, the NUMBER of errors was great for Chan than Kostner/the Germans, but the severity of errors, collectively, was about the same. And note that Chan's were on harder jumping passes than Kostner's. The difference is, Chan actually lost his segment with these errors, and Kostner and the Germans earned PCS that placed them higher than those with cleaner skates.

Also if you want to talk about disrupting a program, Kostner's fall was at the end, disrupting her final pose with the music and her fall was the last thing the judges saw. As for the Germans, I think we can all agree that they tightened up throughout their program the way Chan did, and yet, like Chan, their PCS didn't really suffer for it, even with the errors.

I think comparing Kostner (excellent PCS) to Murakami (good but not great PCS) is a fair example of comparing Chan (excellent PCS) to Ten (good but not great PCS).
Kostner: fell in the SP; popped a loop and fell on a downgraded 3S at the end of her FS
Murakami: clean SP; under-rotated both loops and turned a 2A into a single A.
Clearly, Murakami's errors were collectively less severe. But since Kostner is viewed as a far better skater she can skate an SP and and FS, both with falls, and still place second over a skater with a few URs (thanks to an 8.5 PCS advantage in the FS.
It's pretty odd that the skater with the 4th best TES in the SP and 6th best TES in the LP gets the silver medal, and nobody questions her PCS holding her up.

I'm not defending Chan's PCS, I'm saying that people seem to think the PCS discrepancy between error-packed Germans/Kostner over a relatively cleaner MT&M/Murakami should be a big gap, but somehow when Chan makes errors over a relatively cleaner Ten it's a huge deal.

Seriously. Go back and look at the GoE as compared to the actual scores for both Ten and Chan in the SP:

Chan's 4T-3T got +1.57 with a shaky 4T and no flow or speed out of the 3T. Chan's knee bend saved that jump. In comparison Ten's FLAWLESS 4T got +1.71. I'm sorry, but Ten's Quad deserved a straight rows of +2 or +3, it was perfection.
Ten's 3A was comparable to Chan's if not better, cause Patrick was a bit (and I mean a bit) pitched forward, yet Chan is .14 better in GoE.
In PCS in the SP:
I get that Chan is going to have better SS, Transitions, and perhaps Choreo, but Chan was 1 point ahead of him in Performance/Execution and in Interpretation? Absolutely overscored. Chan's was NOT the perfect performance and he shouldn't have had that big of a lead going into the Free.

Again: I think Chan should have won that segment, but he wasn't 7 points clear of Ten. Ten gave an almost faultless short that was free of tension and full of expression. Chan was tight and nervous and you can see that in the landings of some of his jumps.

In the LP: I've already discussed how Chan was held up in specific area of PCS (Skating Skills and Interpretation he was actually HIGHER than Ten. Ridiculous, when you think about the performances they both put out on the ice in the free.) Also, how does someone that falls twice and has two other noticeable errors, coupled with the marring of the artistic quality that those error wrought in the rest of his program only lose the Performance/Execution mark by .3 to Ten?

Stop trying to defend Chan's victory. It is absolutely indefensible and the poster child for everything that is wrong with this system.

Could it be that neither Kostner nor the Germans won? Chan walked away with the title and it is a lot more significant than placing second. It is only natural that a world champion with multiple errors causes a lot more controversy than a second-place finisher.

1000 times this.
 

PftJump

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Hey... We all know linkage between Score(mainly PCS, somewhat TES) and Nationality.
Need discussion? I don't think so.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Since I've already held forth on this topic in other threads, I'll try to limit myself a bit this time. Plus, as someone mentioned, this particular equine has now been beaten so thoroughly it could probably now go into IKEA meatballs.

While individual circumstances can be debated, and I'm not saying that Caro's errors were equivalent to Patrick's, I do agree with the OP on principle:

1) there ought to be a conceptual recognition that it is impossible to have a clear fall that does not impact the aesthetic qualities of the program, and therefore it should be reflected in the PCS in some fashion.

2) it can also be recognized, however, that every succeeding fall/disruption has greater impact, and the penalties might increase in non-linear fashionm, starting with a fairly moderate level for the first. That way, the first one doesn't necessarily mean you're out of the running, but the impact is recognized, and you've gotten your first yellow card on the increasing scale of penalties.

Further distinctions can be made on the basis of how the skater copes subsequent to the fall/disruption. Thus, skaters that do their best to get back on track as quickly and completely as possible wll minimize the negative impact, while those who do not will suffer further in their scores. Nevertheless, the fact that there is a base penalty (see above) recognizes the conceptual truth that there is no such thing as a fall that does not disrupt the program.

3) this system ought to have well-defined paramaters, to minimize the arbitrariness of judgment (just look at the arguments here on this forum).

I will use Caro's program-ending fall in the LP to illustrate some thoughts. Now, I recognize that this is a strong and quality program. That is not the issue. But as it applies to the thread topic, consider this: why, do you suppose, did Lori/Caro choose to put that jump where they did? As most of us should be able to see, it was not merely to gain a second-half jump bonus. In my view, it's clear that the jump placement was deliberately designed to create an emphatic, thrilling emotional punctuation, to bring the house down, as it were. In short, they were planning for a PCS boost from this technical element. If Caro had hit that jump, I do not doubt that it would have had the desired effect.

But having recognized this, what should, logically, be the effect of a fall on that aesthetically critical jump? Yes, I would argue that it should negatively impact PCS, just as its clean execution would have positively affected it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Again, do I believe this was on the same level or magnitude has Patrick's failings in the LP? Of course not. But let's be intellectually honest about it and agree that it is a difference of degree, not kind.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Hey... We all know linkage between Score (mainly PCS, somewhat TES) and Nationality.
Need discussion? I don't think so.

In this case, I don't think it worked out that way. If Skate Canada were pulling strings they could have done better for Kaetlyn Osmond, who gave two fine performances but achieved only eighth place. They could have done something for Duhamel and Radford, who deserved silver but only got bronze. And they could have lobbied harder for Virtue and Moir, who lost to Davis a White. (At last year;s worlds Virtue and Moir did catch a break in the judging, but that was in France.)
 

Leonardo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
In this case, I don't think it worked out that way. If Skate Canada were pulling strings they could have done better for Kaetlyn Osmond, who gave two fine performances but achieved only eighth place.

Kaetlyn fell TWO times in the LP. And still got higher pcs than Suzuki.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Kaetlyn fell TWO times in the LP. And still got higher pcs than Suzuki.

I'd have to agree with Mathman on this one. Akiko's lower PCS was because of (a) her position in the penultimate group, unlike Kaetlyn, who skated in the final group of ladies, and (b) Akiko was far from her usual sparkling self during that unfortunate performance.
 

PftJump

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
In this case, I don't think it worked out that way. If Skate Canada were pulling strings they could have done better for Kaetlyn Osmond, who gave two fine performances but achieved only eighth place. They could have done something for Duhamel and Radford, who deserved silver but only got bronze. And they could have lobbied harder for Virtue and Moir, who lost to Davis a White. (At last year;s worlds Virtue and Moir did catch a break in the judging, but that was in France.)

First Senior year,
She got PCS score 29.XX in Short, and 60.XX in Free...
Even Zijun Li's Clean program got 58.XX.

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