Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS) | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I agree with all except for T/D. They never had to do the footwork, twizzles, dance spins, or lifts like those that are required under CoP. They would however get excellent PCS. But pre-IJS ice dance is more of a performance, with a technical focus on edge quality and speed moreso than actual difficulty. You would wonder how the 90's would react if D/W or V/M went back in time and skated their current FDs. :laugh:

Even G/G is questionable because the technical content they had was inferior to today's standards for winning at least. Again, their artistry is better than most, if not all, of today's pairs teams so their PCS would be high, but it's really difficult to compare pre- and post-IJS skaters. Of course Yagudin and Kim have quads and 3-3s and that hasn't changed too much.

That's because Torvill/Dean never trained for things like CoP style lifts, twizzles, etc. But given their skill with the blade I have no problem believing that they had the ability. They had no reason to, it just wasn't necessary back then. Ditto with G/G, actually their "artistry" during their competitive days was for the most part quite mediocre, it was their superior technical prowess that elevated them to their wins. Most of that artistic stuff we associate with G/G came after they turned pro. Remember, G/G were actually doing quad twists in the 1980s! I bet if G/G were born 30 years later, they would be CoP masters as well, their pure technique and incredible skating skills would make modern CoP technical content chopped liver for them. They just didn't train for today's standards because it wasn't required or even fully appreciated at the time. I remember reading somewhere that G/G actually stopped doing the quad twist in competition because the judges kept thinking it was a triple anyway. The thing is, 6.0 prioritized a clean program. Strategically, in terms of risk/reward under 6.0, it made much more sense for G/G to skate easier but clean performances as opposed to more difficult programs with higher chance of mistakes (which makes much more sense under the incentives of CoP).

Also--about Shiz in 2006, Shizuka actually skated before Irina, but after Cohen. She did play it safe after Cohen bombed, but she had no idea of knowing that Irina would bomb (I don't think anyone really did)

And Scott Hamilton was pretty much the only English language commentator I remember saying that Yagudin conceded the LP to Plush and was in danger of losing it to Goebel, pretty much everyone else thought Yagudin had won after he finished skating.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Its not double standard. Its the painful number of times that Chan won with multiple mistakes. Sure there are a few world and olymp champ who won with a fall. Chan had been winning competition with average of 3-4 glarring mistakes, and the average is keep going up.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Yagudin or Michelle would still have won under CoP

but G/G ? yes they were romantic but they had double twists and double jumps sorry.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Michelle would still have won under CoP

Hm, she would have been nailed for flutzing and URs, but her PCS still would have been high. Under CoP Michelle actually didn't do well at all, but there's no denying at her peak she likely would have still won many of her competitions even under CoP.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Yagudin or Michelle would still have won under CoP

but G/G ? yes they were romantic but they had double twists and double jumps sorry.

Yagudin and G&G would have still dominated under COP. Michelle would have done very well but less dominant than she was under 6.0. Probably 2 or 3 World titles instead of 6.0, even in the era she skated in (whereas two of her chief rivals Slutskaya and Cohen would have been more successful under 6.0, and more successful against Kwan in general than under 6.0).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Where Michelle really would have cleaned up is figures. Alas, she was born into a different era and never learned them.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010.

LOL. Arakawa would blow 2002 medalists out of the water. Her skating skill and her programs are better than all of them. Her jumps were so secure, with huge speed going in and out. Her spiral put all of their spirals to shame. She maximized her COP spins to get the highest level.
In 1998, Michelle and Tara are little girls, skating next to a lady. Shizuka would get higher presentation, for sure. And you think Chen Lu can beat Shizuka? Only with an insane panel of judges.

In 2010, her actual programs wouldn't beat Yuna, might not beat Mao, but definitely above Joannie. And she was playing safe to make sure she get a medal. If she skated anything like practice, I think she would challenge Yuna. In 2006, the GOE and PCS were relatively low for everyone, and with a really safe content, she still beat Mirai's score. How would she place 5th?
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Shizuka would have easily won atleast the bronze at every Olympics with her 2006 performances. Beyond that, it is hard to say. Here would be my guesswork though:

1998- Under 6.0 she probably loses to Michelle and Tara. The judges would just say 7 triples to 5, and that is the end of it. However under COP she probably wins out over both. As the 98 programs were designed for 6.0, and Shizuka's for COP, is it really fair to compare in a sense? Anyone who even dares to think she finishes behind any of the performances of Chen, Butyrskaya, or Slutskaya from 98 under any scoring system is sniffing some silly glue though. Actually should note too that had Shizuka been skating under 6.0 she probably does 6 triples, even with one doubled intended triple, as it is COP that does not allow 7 triples without a triple-triple or triple-triple sequence planned, which might have given her a fighting shot even under 6.0 as Kwan was slow that day, and Tara's jump quality, non jump elements, line and maturity dont compare to Shizuka.

2002- Under 6.0 she wins silver behind Hughes probably. Under COP she hammers the field and Hughes drops to about 6th with her flutzes, massive UR issues, and mediocre SP. Actually even under 6.0 she would have a good shot considering an extremely sluggish Slutskaya with one of her worst ever performances in a major event (in some ways worse than 2006) nearly beat her. Someone thinking she is placed below Kwan or Cohen's 2002 performances, again put away the sniffing glue.

2010- No shot at gold obviously. Could have been close for silver or bronze though, as Mao had mistakes in the LP and so did Joannie. SP scoring would have been critical.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Hughes drops to about 6th with her flutzes, massive UR issues, and mediocre SP.

I agree with most of what you say, but Hughes in 6th? That's ridiculous. Especially after the mistakes made by the rest of the field? In her freeskate, there weren't "massive UR issues" both 3L were just shy over 1/4 rotation (the 3T-3L was really close) and neither 3-3 were even remotely close to downgrades) .... and considering it was a 3L on the tail end of each 3-3, they would still each get 70% 3.6 points, which is only 0.5 shy of if she did clean 3T's instead of UR'ed 3Ls on the ends. And compared to the field she was the "cleanest".

Her SP wasn't mediocre either. The only element that was iffy was the 3F with a slight two foot and break in the steps preceding it, but everything was cleanly rotated (even if her 3Z-2L was flutzed). I would have had her behind Butyrskaya maybe, but points-wise she'd still be in the hunt after the SP, and would win it after the LP.

But yes, Arakawa would have likely beaten her though (even if Hughes upped her levels and all that to 2006 standards).
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Yagudin or Michelle would still have won under CoP

but G/G ? yes they were romantic but they had double twists and double jumps sorry.

G/G weren't "romantic" until late 1988/early 1989, Gordeeva was much too young before that. By then, they were already Olympic champions and 2-time world champions. People always associate G/G with being romantic, but that's only their late/pro career. For much of their competitive career they were basically cute kids skating really fast with big beautiful tricks. No romance, no real "artistry" for that matter. But they were consistent with incredible pairs skills, which counted for a lot under 6.0.

G/G also had a quad/triple twist. That said, G/G did struggle with SBS triples but I wonder how much time they put into actually training them given that their double jumps were usually more than enough to consistently beat Valova/Vasiliev with their groundbreaking SBS 3Ts.
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Where Michelle really would have cleaned up is figures. Alas, she was born into a different era and never learned them.

Um, no. She learned them, she just didn't have to compete them (at least not at top elite levels). At the time she burst into our lives in the early 1990's, the USFSA still had testing requirements for each competitive level that included both figures test and free skating test. The correct levels had to be passed in order to compete at a specific level...even though the figures testing and the free skating testing for a given person might be on a different time track. I remember when I was diligently practicing my basic figures back in 1993-94 (not long after Michelle turned senior), that senior level competitive skaters still had to have passed 3rd Figures Test (ratcheted down over the years from ultimate level 8th Test) AND the senior free skate test. I have no idea when she started practicing figures, but given the time it usually takes most skaters to successfully prepare and pass the Prelim, 1st, 2nd, and then 3rd Test, I'd estimate she'd been doing them for many years. And she may have had to achieve a higher level (4th or 5th test) at the time she became a novice level skater, since that was the requirement a few years earlier. I can't quite remember what years she was at what level. The requirement to test Figures as a precondition for competitive skating was of course, dropped by the mid-1990's in the USA, with Moves in the Field entering the picture as the substitute skills sequence for USFSA skaters.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
G/G weren't "romantic" until late 1988/early 1989, Gordeeva was much too young before that. By then, they were already Olympic champions and 2-time world champions. People always associate G/G with being romantic, but that's only their late/pro career. For much of their competitive career they were basically cute kids skating really fast with big beautiful tricks. No romance, no real "artistry" for that matter. But they were consistent with incredible pairs skills, which counted for a lot under 6.0.

G/G also had a quad/triple twist. That said, G/G did struggle with SBS triples but I wonder how much time they put into actually training them given that their double jumps were usually more than enough to consistently beat Valova/Vasiliev with their groundbreaking SBS 3Ts.

When Katia was a pro, and competed alone, she would try a 3t in competition, but it never was a consistently successful jump for her, AFAIR.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Just because S/S did not win the Pairs event does not mean the double standard isn't there. If the Russians weren't there or say, have to withdraw due to an accident, somehow that should affect the legitimacy of S/S placement given that they already skated? This made no sense.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Um, no. She learned them, she just didn't have to compete them (at least not at top elite levels). At the time she burst into our lives in the early 1990's, the USFSA still had testing requirements for each competitive level that included both figures test and free skating test. The correct levels had to be passed in order to compete at a specific level...even though the figures testing and the free skating testing for a given person might be on a different time track. I remember when I was diligently practicing my basic figures back in 1993-94 (not long after Michelle turned senior), that senior level competitive skaters still had to have passed 3rd Figures Test (ratcheted down over the years from ultimate level 8th Test) AND the senior free skate test. I have no idea when she started practicing figures, but given the time it usually takes most skaters to successfully prepare and pass the Prelim, 1st, 2nd, and then 3rd Test, I'd estimate she'd been doing them for many years. And she may have had to achieve a higher level (4th or 5th test) at the time she became a novice level skater, since that was the requirement a few years earlier. I can't quite remember what years she was at what level. The requirement to test Figures as a precondition for competitive skating was of course, dropped by the mid-1990's in the USA, with Moves in the Field entering the picture as the substitute skills sequence for USFSA skaters.
I can attest to reading about Michelle Kwan completing level 4 figures somewhere...can't find where, though. :eek:hwell:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I think what I meant to say about Michelle was that if she had been born 600 years (exactly!) earlier she would have been the patron saint of figure skating, instead of St. Lidwina.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
definitely that was Not a quad twist

No it was not, good eye!

Sure was. Look at the replay at 5:23.

Sorry but no it wasn't.

He caught her as she was completing her 3rd rotation and her back was to him when he caught her clearly showing the 4th rotation was never completed. It would have only counted as a triple, a messy one at that. They also would have (should have) received negatives on GOE across the board.
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Just because S/S did not win the Pairs event does not mean the double standard isn't there. If the Russians weren't there or say, have to withdraw due to an accident, somehow that should affect the legitimacy of S/S placement given that they already skated? This made no sense.

This is true. And I bet that S/S winning with that performance would have been just as bad as Chan winning. But since the right team won, people are a bit less frustrated with the overall result. It's a natural reaction. Not to mention S/S didn't had the epic meltdown Chan did. They messed up their side by side jumps, but this means 2 elements out of 12. Plus it helped they ended the program with a throw 3A. I still think they should have placed fourth overall though. I don't think people who are outraged by Chan winning agree with S/S silver medal so I see no double standard here. People are more outraged with Chan's medal because he won with a terrible performance, defending a world title which was also won with a controversy.
Regarding to Kostner's silver, yes, she was maybe outscored in the SP, but nowhere near Chan's level. And she almost lost the silver to a flawed Mao. Kanako had many Ur issues and the other ladies do not have the quality as top 3 have or were too far behind after the SP (Zijun). Carolina winning (say if Yuna stayed home) would not have been as bad as Chan winning IMO, and that because there was no other lady who had the competition of her life and placed below her. With Chan on the other hand, he beat an almost perfect Denis Ten.
Not to mention S/S and Carolina didn't brag about how they deserved the medals and how the others didn't took the opportunity to overtake them. I don't see Kostner saying left and right "Mao should have landed that 3A cleanly, I bet she is kicking herself today". He could have been more gracious about the result, or at least he should have kept his mouth shut.
 
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