Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

No, I'm saying that it's negligible that Slutskaya was at the time incapable of doing a 3-3 and Shizuka was capable of doing a 3-3, since neither attempted a 3-3 in either program anyways.

Plus there's no guarantee that Shizuka would have landed her 3-3 even if she had attempted it, just because she was landing them in practice, so it's a moot point. Was Shizuka landing 3-3's in her program run-throughs or just when trying the 3-3's separately? Was Shizuka landing 3-3 in the warmup of the SP or FS? (Again, doesn't matter because plenty of skaters have clean practice run-throughs but can't land the big elements or dilute their programs come competition.)

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Yes, she was landing 3x3 in her program run through. Yes, she was landing 3x3 in the warm up as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U1Nqqm23xBY#t=39s

FlattFan said:

Yes, she was landing 3x3 in her program run through. Yes, she was landing 3x3 in the warm up as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U1Nqqm23xBY#t=39s

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Okay, fair enough. But there's no guarantee she would have landed it in her program, even if she had landed it in practice or warm-up. And her 3S in her LP had quite a lean and less speed than the one she did in warmup, so I think it was smart of her to just tack a double on the end and go clean. And if she really was landing them in the warmup then it's unfortunate she didn't go for it in the FS and held back... if it were giving her difficulty, that would be understandable but that 3S-3T was a beauty.

pangtongfan said:

Sasha's PB is also BS as it was achieved in the 2003 grand prix where the judges were not scoring COP the same way they did in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006. Her true PB is the 185 range score she posted at the 2005 Worlds with as clean to a clean competition as she is capable of, and even that is below Shizuka's Turin total, and it is much easier to see Shizuka skating much better than she did in Turin (based on her practices and 2004 Worlds skates) than Sasha skating much (or any) better than she did at the 2005 Worlds.

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Basing things on practice skates is negligible. It's what you put out there on competition ice at the right moment.

To suggest Sasha should get 13 points less than her personal best because the judges didn't know how to score CoP is pretty odd, especially when you consider that some base values were increased from 2003 to the 2006 season, skaters had a better handle of how to increase levels (not to mention level 3 and 4 introduced), you were allowed 3 combinations instead of 2 (including a 3-jump combination) and there was a 10% bonus. Even if you reduced Sasha's PCS, with these technical boosts in mind, Sasha's skates at Skate Canada would have still comfortably beaten Shizuka's PB at the Olympics.

Basing things on practice skates is negligible. It's what you put out there on competition ice at the right moment.

If THAT is the crux of your argument your arguing in favor of Sasha is even more ridiculous, the Sasha Cohen who has never skated a clean program in a real competition (I am not considering a cheesefest like Marshalls Cupcakes on Ice) and you use that statement while trying to argue in favor of Sasha, and how Shizuka was lucky Sasha Cohen of all people didnt do a clean program. How absurd! Atleast Shizuka skating cleanly with 7 triples and triple-triples (7 triples even without a triple-triple would already be more than enough to ensure even a fantasy clean Sasha not winning mind you, based on the protocals) is far more believable than Sasha skating cleanly with 7 triples, considering Shizuka actually has done so, at the 2004 Worlds, and a couple other times in lesser events. So you had better believe people are going to believe it was very possible for Shizuka to replicate her practice performances, if we are even considering any hope of Sasha skating a clean 7 triple long, or an ill Irina who was crashing and burning hard in practice of skating even a clean 6 triple long.

As for your comments about the scores, Sasha scored some 70 range scores for her short programs in the 2003-2004, while even her various very good shorts in 2005-2006 could only net between 60-66 points (and her best ever short by far at the Turin Olympics still only 66 and change). Her rather drab and unremarkable (also with major errros like her Turin skate) Skate Canada LP which most would agree was a "weaker" skate than her Olympic skate which was exceptional apart from the first 2 mistakes, scored around close to 130 vs her 116 for her superior Olympic LP. If that isnt sufficient proof of the obviously inflated COP scores of the Autumn 2003 "test" run, which were evident for ALL skaters then I dont know what is. It was basically the equivalent of the farce scoring of the 2004 Worlds where a mammoth never approached before record of 43 perfect 6.0s were handed out including to such heavyweights as Winkler & Lohse and Pang & Tong (yes I am their fan but they are 5.9 skaters at absolute best). All 6.0s from those Worlds are totally meaningless too. Think what you want to think, but I disregard any scores before the first real official COP season of 2004-2005, and many of the commentators even did the same, starting the marking of skaters PBs with that season.

This whole talk is silly anyway. Had Shizuka, Irina, and Sasha all skated their best at the Turino Olympics in the LP, Arakawa would have won easily. They all didnt skate their best and Arakawa still won easily. Pushing the idea of Irina and Sasha's best but not allowing the same for Shizuka, which is the ONLY way to make it sound like an unfavorable situation for Shizuka or make her as lucky to win somehow, makes no sense whatsoever. It is particularly humurous that CanadianSkaterGuy was infuriated anyone dare say Maria's World title in 1999 in a very weak transition year, with almost nobody at the event could be even remotedly lucky or anything but incredibly stellar, and yet now is hell bent on demoting Shizuka's Olympic win, which came on the heels of a World title less than 2 years earlier.

I guess had Irina been in her 2004-2005 season form and skated her very best though it would have been close between her and Shizuka. Both would have been around 135 points for the LP. Sasha in this case would have been a distant 3rd even with a totally clean skate (and that is without even mentioning it is dubious at best to even consider a clean long program as a possability for Sasha to begin). Comparing Shizuka to Sasha, Shizuka potentially was capable of the much harder jump layout, her jumps get much more GOE, she actually BEAT Sasha in spins in the LP which all but ends Sasha's hopes right then and there as that is one of the areas she needs to negate her inferior jumping, so what is Sasha's hope if both skated even comparably well for themselves? She isnt going to score 10 points higher in PCS than Shizuka or something. So why is this even worth discussing further, from no angle does Sasha win the argument, her case is as empty as her empty trophy case of World and Olympic titles. She isnt the winner if everyone skates cleanly, she isnt the winner if everyone skates their best ever, she isnt the most likely to have skated cleanly, she didnt come the closest to skating cleanly. Saying what if Sasha the girl who never skates cleanly had skated cleanly with 7 triples, while a skater who has proven they actually can (in actual competition) skate cleanly with 7 triples and 2 triple-triples, plus was doing it all week in practice to boot, had still done just 5, is stupid unless that is actually what happened, but didnt. OK with Michelle Kwan out Sasha Cohen has the nicest spiral of the Olympics, give her a bag of cookies for that, and end this insanity.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

To suggest Sasha should get 13 points less than her personal best because the judges didn't know how to score CoP is pretty odd, especially when you consider that some base values were increased from 2003 to the 2006 season,...

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IIRC after the inaugural 2003-04 season the ISU drastically overhauled the scoring system because the scores were uniformly too high. Judges were still in 6.0 mode and were giving out too high PCSs indiscriminately to the top finishers.

As for base values, they were higher in 2003-04 than in any season since.

2003-04: Lutz = 6.1, Flip = 5.6, Loop = 5.3, Salchow = 4.8. Toe = 4.5

2005-06: Lutz = 6.0, Flip = 5.5, Loop = 5.0, Salchow = 4.5, Toe =4.0

Sasha's all-time best, at 2003 Skate Canada, had negative GOE on both Lutzes (and no combo), her three spins were lavel 2, level 2, and level 1, her two step sequences were level 2 and level 1. But the way they were scoring that season she still got almost 200 points. Other skaters like Jenny Kirk also got some huge scores that year.

After changes in scoring the following year no one approached that mark for two years, until Slutskaya edged it out in her whirlwind 2005 Grand Prix season.

I wouldn't say that the judges "didn't know how to score CoP in the 2003-04 season." But the ISU deliberately cooled things off after seeing so many sky high scores for unexceptional programs.

Mathman said:

IIRC after the inaugural 2003-04 season the ISU drastically overhauled the scoring system because the scores were uniformly too high. Judges were still in 6.0 mode and were giving out too high PCSs indiscriminately to the top finishers.

As for base values, they were higher in 2003-04 than in any season since.

2003-04: Lutz = 6.1, Flip = 5.6, Loop = 5.3, Salchow = 4.8. Toe = 4.5

2005-06: Lutz = 6.0, Flip = 5.5, Loop = 5.0, Salchow = 4.5, Toe =4.0

Sasha's all-time best, at 2003 Skate Canada, had negative GOE on both Lutzes (and no combo), her three spins were lavel 2, level 2, and level 1, her two step sequences were level 2 and level 1. But the way they were scoring that season she still got almost 200 points. Other skaters like Jenny Kirk also got some huge scores that year.

After changes in scoring the following year no one approached that mark for two years, until Slutskaya edged it out in her whirlwind 2005 Grand Prix season.

I wouldn't say that the judges "didn't know how to score CoP in the 2003-04 season." But the ISU deliberately cooled things off after seeing so many sky high scores for unexceptional programs.

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Thank you. It is worth noting the 2003 grand prix was only the "trial run" for COP. They were still unsure if they were sticking with the interim 9 random scores out of 14 6.0 system they used at Europeans, all Nationals (although the ISU didnt govern those), and Worlds of that year, and coming up with a new system if COP didnt pass the test, or going to COP full time next season. Only COP scores starting in its first official season of 2004-2005 onwards should even be considered. Anyway who cares as Shizuka with her performances from the 2004 Worlds would have easily broken 200 points anyway (well over 200 points under normal COP scoring that is, probably would be more like around 220 points under the fall 2003 scoring, lol).

As for Sasha the only time she got close to 200 points ever again after the fall 2003 interim COP process, was at her own Nationals in 2006 where she skated a much better LP than the Turin Olympics, probably her closest to clean in a real event ever, and almost as good a SP, and way better performances than Skate Canada 2003 by a huge margin, and still with National inflation only about tied her 2003 Skate Canada overall mark. At Skate Canada 2003 some of her clean jumps were getting +3s in GOE which tells you all you need to know (by 2005-2006 her clean jumps were rightfully mostly getting 0s in GOE, with the occasional +1s, more like what you expect from an average and inconsistent jumper).

pangtongfan said:

This whole talk is silly anyway. Had Shizuka, Irina, and Sasha all skated their best at the Turino Olympics in the LP, Arakawa would have won easily. They all didnt skate their best and Arakawa still won easily. Pushing the idea of Irina and Sasha's best but not allowing the same for Shizuka, which is the ONLY way to make it sound like an unfavorable situation for Shizuka or make her as lucky to win somehow, makes no sense whatsoever. It is particularly humurous that CanadianSkaterGuy was infuriated anyone dare say Maria's World title in 1999 in a very weak transition year, with almost nobody at the event could be even remotedly lucky or anything but incredibly stellar, and yet now is hell bent on demoting Shizuka's Olympic win, which came on the heels of a World title less than 2 years earlier.

I guess had Irina been in her 2004-2005 season form and skated her very best though it would have been close between her and Shizuka. Both would have been around 135 points for the LP. Sasha in this case would have been a distant 3rd even with a totally clean skate (and that is without even mentioning it is dubious at best to even consider a clean long program as a possability for Sasha to begin). Comparing Shizuka to Sasha, Shizuka potentially was capable of the much harder jump layout, her jumps get much more GOE, she actually BEAT Sasha in spins in the LP which all but ends Sasha's hopes right then and there as that is one of the areas she needs to negate her inferior jumping, so what is Sasha's hope if both skated even comparably well for themselves? She isnt going to score 10 points higher in PCS than Shizuka or something. So why is this even worth discussing further, from no angle does Sasha win the argument, her case is as empty as her empty trophy case of World and Olympic titles.

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Actually had they all skated their "best", Irina would have won. Her skate at CoR 3 months prior to the Olympics easily cleared Shizuka's personal best (let me guess, you're going to say it was Russian favouritism or some bs that gave her such high scores). Irina at her best was getting highest PCS. Plus Irina's 3Z-3L/3S-3L is harder than Shizuka's 3Z-3T/3S-3T You say that Shizuka has the ability to land 7 triples, which she only has managed to do once, albeit at Worlds. All this talk of how capable she is of 3-3's and she really hadn't landed a whole lot in competition (yes, she landed in practice, but I'm trying to recall a competition where she landed 3S-3T other than 2004 Worlds), and certainly not nearly as many as Irina. But as the case was, Shizuka was the best that day. You're false in saying I'm attempting to debase Shizuka's Olympic win. She clearly deserved to win, and I don't take anything from that. I'm not saying it was a fluke or anything, the way you debased Maria's world title with such inane statements as "Michelle fell and the field was weak". Shizuka is one of my favourite skaters, but that doesn't mean I'm going to have just positive things to say about her.

Like I said, I'm not Sasha's fan, but I still treat her and other skaters with respect -- especially considering she's won 3 world medals and an Olympic silver (top 4 in the five times she's gone to Worlds). Juvenile, vitriolic comments like Sasha's "case is as empty as her empty trophy case of World and Olympic titles" just goes to show you're just a jerk who has nothing better to do than bring down skaters. Skaters don't owe you a title (or multiple titles in non-transition years when they aren't the favourites and aren't skating on home ice) just so you can stop saying crap about them.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Actually had they all skated their "best", Irina would have won. Her skate at CoR 3 months prior to the Olympics easily cleared Shizuka's personal best (let me guess, you're going to say it was Russian favouritism or some bs that gave her such high scores). I

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Like has already been explained to you about 20 times Shizuka's best ever competition was the 2004 Worlds. That was not scored under COP so you have no way of telling how it would compare, but most would agree it probably would have scored as high or higher as Irina's best COP scores, especialy now with the rep power as a former World Champion she didnt have in anyway going into the 2004 Worlds. Her practices in Turin also gave indication she was quite capable of replicating her 2004 Worlds competition to boot. I will concede it would have been very close between the two, with Sasha a distant 3rd even if she too was clean. However Irina realistically was in poor shape at the games, struggling with the altitude and her illness, skating horribly in practice, and was at best only going to skate marginally better than she did, which means if all skated according to plan Shizuka would have won comfortably, just as she did with all not living up to hopes of what they might produce (Sasha in reality coming closest given her history).

pangtongfan said:

Basing things on practice skates is negligible. It's what you put out there on competition ice at the right moment.

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If this were true, Chan would not be the reigning World Champion. I spoke with some people who were in London and pretty much Chan was spot on in practices - ALL OF THEM - which is why the judges were willing to give it to him because Hanyu, Taka, Javier, and even DTen were having hit or miss practices.

mskater93 said:

If this were true, Chan would not be the reigning World Champion. I spoke with some people who were in London and pretty much Chan was spot on in practices - ALL OF THEM - which is why the judges were willing to give it to him because Hanyu, Taka, Javier, and even DTen were having hit or miss practices.

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Um, but Chan had a perfect SP. And Hanyu/Taka/Javier had flawed SP & FS. Takahashi for one was gifted with 6th place in spite of having the 8th and 13th best TES scores in the two segments.

I noticed you didn't even go there about D10....

mskater93 said:

I noticed you didn't even go there about D10....

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Yeah, because I wasn't making a point about him. You're saying because Ten had poor practices he didn't get the win? His PCS were through the roof. (As was Chan's, too, but still...)

If what you said is true, Ten would not have scored 91 points in his SP because the judges were accustomed to his supposed hit or miss practices.

I am saying he would have been closer in the short program.

Any closer and Ten would have been getting the scores of Hanyu and Takahashi after clean SPs with quads. Ten's a good skater and gave a great performance, but he's not deserving of 95 points for that SP. I would have also had Chan lower though -- around the 95 area, and Ten just shy of 90, so about the same gap but both lower. Ten also benefited from being in the final flight of the SP and possibly benefited from a disastrous Hanyu skating right before him.