Possible alternative nationalities in singles skating

MalloryArcher said:

Wow, ok, you come across as a bit rude. I'm newish to this board, and just joined this month. I hope you're not typical of posters here otherwise I really can't be bothered posting anything here. Mods should take note of posters like you, I think. Way to turn off new members!

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Erm, as you are Finnish yourself, I suppose I don't have to remind you that not everybody on here is a native English speaker. So, the way some non-native speakers word things may sound abrupt. But this is not a reflection on the poster - it is a reflection of how good their English teacher was.

I really hope that your enjoyment of the forum has not been dented by your experiences in this thread.

MalloryArcher said:

ANYWAY, the core of what I was saying is that there are few Finnish RESIDENTS of St Petersburg. I thought this would be interesting to the poster who asked about Finns in St Petersburg who could apply for Finnish citizenship. As I mentioned, Russians of Finnish descent (Ingrian Finns) were a culturally significant minority in St Petersburg up until the 1990s, when Finnish immigration law allowed them to resettle in Finland. Most Ingrian Finns have left St Petersburg for Finland. The law was changed in 2010, so if any Russians now discover Finnish ancestry it won't help them gain Finnish citizenship. Despite this, Finnish citizenship law is more straight forward than some other European countries (eg Estonia or Latvia. I was surprised someone suggested Estonia as an alternative for Polina K, as Estonian citizenship is very strict). If skaters were to start training in Finland, as long as they could prove some proficiency in Finnish (or Swedish) they could apply for citizenship after 5 years. Some skaters have in fact done this. Alisa Drei of Russia moved to Finland with her mom when she got married to a Finn and got Finnish citizenship, represented Finland in the Olympics (1998 I think). I don't believe acquiring Finnish citizenship without residency is possible unless at least one parent is a Finnish citizen. So hopefully that is of some interest to the discussion on alternative nationalities.

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Personally, I found that VERY interesting. Thank you for sheding light on the issue of the Finns in Russia.

As you may have gathered from my criticism of the Japanese nationality laws, I believe that if you have ancestors from a particular country, you should be allowed citizenship of that country. So, I am very disappointed that Finland has changed the rules. But, I'm sure they had a good (probably economic) reason to do so.

And thank you for pointing out about the strictness of the Estonian laws. The member that suggested that possibility later admitted that they were guessing in their suggestions!


By the way, if anybody is interested, I started another thread today which is directly derived from this thread. It is about the possible consequences of representing a different country, and can be found at:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?40747

Hope you enjoy reading my thoughts

CaroLiza_fan

glam said:

Finnish people seldom go to Russia even for a vacation.

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MalloryArcher said:

It is kind of true that Finns don't travel much to St Petersburg, even though it's so close.

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MalloryArcher said:

Wow, ok, you come across as a bit rude. I'm newish to this board, and just joined this month. I hope you're not typical of posters here otherwise I really can't be bothered posting anything here. Mods should take note of posters like you, I think. Way to turn off new members!

We were actually talking about Finnish RESIDENTS of St Petersburg, not TOURISTS or VISITORS. I thought that was clear. l don't really know what debating the number of tourists in St Pete adds to this discussion, but since you seem to have misinterpreted what I said, I'll add this: I mentioned at the end that I think Finns are less likely to travel in St Petersburg, compared to other nearby cities (like Tallinn and Stockholm). Which statistics indicate is TRUE. 25% of Finns may have visited St Petersburg, but approx. 84% have visited Tallinn (source:statistics-finland website). I can speak from experience that traveling to St Pete was significantly more expensive and difficult than going to Stockholm although St Petersburg is much closer geographically to my home. I imagine the cost and difficulties would put at least some people off (ie. the 59% of Finns willing to go to Tallinn but not St Petersburg). Are you disputing this? Do you live Finland, and have visited Russia and at least one other neighbour country, so can give a good comparison to challenge mine? If not, why are you bothering to tell me that there indeed are some Finnish tourists in St Petersburg? I KNOW THAT, I was one myself! duh!

... As I mentioned, Russians of Finnish descent (Ingrian Finns) were a culturally significant minority in St Petersburg up until the 1990s, when Finnish immigration law allowed them to resettle in Finland. Most Ingrian Finns have left St Petersburg for Finland.

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No, it's not rude to provide/ask for sources to back up one's claims. Namecalling of people who challenged your opinion, asking mods for repression against the particular member, playing drama queen, etc. is rudeness that can turn off from a new poster. But don't worry, I am always at everyone's service.

And yes, we were talking about "vacation" and "travel" which are qualified as tourism and visiting. The official site of the Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs says that in 2011 840K Finns visited Estonia, which is indeed almost half of all foreign tourists in the country, but it's also half less than the number of Finns visited Russia in 2012 (1.4mil) http://www.vm.ee/?q=en/node/69 . I don't see any links to the source in your post but the official site of the Estonian government body I find rather worthy trust, and there 840K simply cannot be 84% of all more than 5mil population of Finland. Surely travelling to St-Petersbug is rather costy, it's a luxury city. Visa stuff shouldn't be even compared to Estonia or Sweden in the first place because Russian and Finland are not in the Union like EU, so it's visas from both sides. Yet, the number of Finns visited Russia of 1.4mil is rather high. And the number of Russians visited Finland equals to the population of Finland- over 5mil. Things seem very fine to me . The part in italics shouldn't be replied at all I assume.

As for Ingrian Finns, according to the Russian Census of 2002 there were 314 people who acknowledged themselves as Ingrian Finns http://www.perepis2002.ru/ct/html/TOM_04_01.htm . In the Census of 2010- the number was 441 people http://www.perepis-2010.ru/results_of_the_census/results-inform.php So I don't really see how most of them left St-Petersburg for Finland. The number of all people of Finns' origin in Russia is over 20k, most of them live in Karelia and St-Petersburg.

CaroLiza_fan said:

but what about the Japanese rules over dual-nationality?

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Not allowed. But... http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/yosha/yr/nationality/Dual_nationality.html

MalloryArcher said:

ANYWAY, the core of what I was saying is that there are few Finnish RESIDENTS of St Petersburg. I thought this would be interesting to the poster who asked about Finns in St Petersburg who could apply for Finnish citizenship...

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Hi, MalloryArcher. Thanks for the interesting information from your area of expertise.

Think of Golden Skate as a swatch of random personalities. (True, some are more random than others. ) The main thing is Doris Pulaski's post #41. To which I add my welcome. :yes:

ivy said:

I can kinda see the USFSA point about investing in skaters then having them leave for other countries, but it seems short sighted. Skating in the US benefits from skating doing well internationally too. NBC would like it too if they could cover multiple skaters in the mix with US connections

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This.

I agree with the Jenny Kirk article posted by rvi5, post 49.

China doesn't allow dual citizenship. So somebody like Christina Gao would have to give up US citizenship to skate for China, at least at the Olympic level. I doubt the Chinese would even want a foreign passport holder skating at other ISU senior competitions, even though it's allowed by ISU rules. And anybody with a First World passport who'd trade it in for a Chinese passport, I'd call certifiably insane (and so would most Chinese not the least of which would be her parents)...so that isn't likely to be a maneuver Gao or anybody else would likely do. Competitive skating is but a brief part of life, there are other ramifications to citizenship besides being able to improve one's odds of making a national team. Also, as somebody said already, for their top international skaters, the Chinese want home grown talent to try to prove a point. The last thing they'd want is looking like their program was dependent on importing foreign talent. I doubt if many skaters who'd spent a lifetime so far training under a North American or European system would get along very well training under the Chinese system.

So this is all just idle, fun chatter and speculation, leading to ..... not much of anything.

and China doesnt need Gao, they have Zijun Li

I need to begin by saying that I have a very strong opinion on this topic because of my background. After many years of waiting I became a Canadian citizen 3 years ago. I immigrated to Canada because its political and social policies were those that I beleived in. I take great pride in my citizenship that I have fought long and hard for.
I have a big problem with athletes obtaining citizenship solely for attending the Olympics. Compete at GPs and Worlds. The Olympics to me is more about country, pride and patriotism for the athletes as well as the spectators. Seeing a "temporary" citizen stand to listen to their anthem and know that the anthem has basically no meaning to them other than the fact that they have received a medal. I find it insulting to those of us that feel citizenship is an immense privilege and not just a party favour that allows you to compete at a certain event.
There are several wonderful skaters and teams that I am very fond of but they absolutely loose my sympathy in their quest for citizenship in a country that they obviously have no intention of living in or being a contributing member of once they finish skating.
So, this morning I became very angry when I saw an athlete that is pursuing Canadian citizenship in order to compete at the Olympics tweet a photograph of our Immigration and Citizenship Minister holding up a new passport and in the next breath tweet how proud they were to be American and how special Independence Day is to them.
For those of us that have worked so hard to obtain our citizenship it is demeaning.

rvi5 said:

Where is Morgan Matthews now?

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Morgan had a severe hip problem which forced her to stop skating.

Incidentally, there is a huge difference between Morgan Matthews and Agnes Zawadzki vis a vis citizenship in another country.

Morgan Matthews wanted to compete for Canada with new partner Leif Gislason, but citing Matthews/Zavozins's JW Championship, USFS held Morgan back for four years. The US federation could do that because Morgan was NOT a Canadian citizen and even with expedited handling, couldn't have become a Canadian citizen at an early date because M/Z lived and trained in the US---not Canada---at the time, and Morgan couldn't accrue enough residency time for several years.

OTOH, Agnes Zawadzki could easily obtain a Polish passport since her parents were born in Poland; the Polish federation would surely be delighted with the opportunity to have Agnes represent them in ISU competition. According to ISU rules, USFS couldn't hold her back because she would be a citizen of the country she wished to represent.

moon said:

I need to begin by saying that I have a very strong opinion on this topic because of my background. After many years of waiting I became a Canadian citizen 3 years ago. I immigrated to Canada because its political and social policies were those that I beleived in. I take great pride in my citizenship that I have fought long and hard for.
I have a big problem with athletes obtaining citizenship solely for attending the Olympics. Compete at GPs and Worlds. The Olympics to me is more about country, pride and patriotism for the athletes as well as the spectators. Seeing a "temporary" citizen stand to listen to their anthem and know that the anthem has basically no meaning to them other than the fact that they have received a medal. I find it insulting to those of us that feel citizenship is an immense privilege and not just a party favour that allows you to compete at a certain event.
There are several wonderful skaters and teams that I am very fond of but they absolutely loose my sympathy in their quest for citizenship in a country that they obviously have no intention of living in or being a contributing member of once they finish skating.
So, this morning I became very angry when I saw an athlete that is pursuing Canadian citizenship in order to compete at the Olympics tweet a photograph of our Immigration and Citizenship Minister holding up a new passport and in the next breath tweet how proud they were to be American and how special Independence Day is to them.
For those of us that have worked so hard to obtain our citizenship it is demeaning.

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Canada is one of the easiest citizenships to obtain, and Canada has had a policy of expediting citizenship for persons of extraordinary talent. Both Canada and the US allow dual citizenship, so a US citizen obtaining Canadian citizenship doesn't mean that person doesn't fully value both privileges.

moon said:

I need to begin by saying that I have a very strong opinion on this topic because of my background. After many years of waiting I became a Canadian citizen 3 years ago. I immigrated to Canada because its political and social policies were those that I beleived in. I take great pride in my citizenship that I have fought long and hard for.
I have a big problem with athletes obtaining citizenship solely for attending the Olympics. Compete at GPs and Worlds. The Olympics to me is more about country, pride and patriotism for the athletes as well as the spectators. Seeing a "temporary" citizen stand to listen to their anthem and know that the anthem has basically no meaning to them other than the fact that they have received a medal. I find it insulting to those of us that feel citizenship is an immense privilege and not just a party favour that allows you to compete at a certain event.
There are several wonderful skaters and teams that I am very fond of but they absolutely loose my sympathy in their quest for citizenship in a country that they obviously have no intention of living in or being a contributing member of once they finish skating.
So, this morning I became very angry when I saw an athlete that is pursuing Canadian citizenship in order to compete at the Olympics tweet a photograph of our Immigration and Citizenship Minister holding up a new passport and in the next breath tweet how proud they were to be American and how special Independence Day is to them.
For those of us that have worked so hard to obtain our citizenship it is demeaning.

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You say that you emigrated because of your opinions on political and social policies. This was good enough reason for you to change countries. Why do you think that your reason for changing countries would be more correct/stronger than reason of the athletes? In the case of those potential athletes swapping countries, you see it as swapping countries 'because of going to Olympics'. You don't seem to take into account that they have worked hard most of their life to achieve whatever they are achieving in that sport, spent a lot of money, time, and made a lot of sacrifices. After all that, if they see their biggest achievement of their life being able to compete at Olympics, in my view, their reason for changing countries is as valid as your reason, and maybe even more.

More valid? You think that people that are seeking freedom of choice, religion and politics have a less valid reason for gaining citizenship into a country that will become their home than someone who needs citizenship for two weeks to participate in a sporting event and then most likely will never set foot in that country again.
I think it comes down to how different people value citizenship. Perhaps we have become used to it being cheapened in the sports world.

US citizens already have freedom of choice, religion and politics, so obviously that wouldn't be the reason for obtaining Canadian citizenship.

Many Canadians obtain US citizenship (much harder to get than Canadian citizenship) for reasons having to do with employment or job opportunity. Sarah Hughes's father is a Canadian citizen who came to the US for his job and got US citizenship; his children were born in the US but have applied for and received Canadian citizenship as well.

Tanith Belbin got US citizenship so she could go to the Olympics with her partner Ben Agosto, but she and her family had lived in the US for many years, and have continued to live in the US since receiving citizenship.

US citizens who have received Canadian citizenship include ice dancer Kaitlyn Weaver (partnered with Andrew Poje); Kaitlyn has lived in Canada since getting her citizenship.

chuckm said:

Morgan had a severe hip problem which forced her to stop skating

Incidentally, there is a huge difference between Morgan Matthews and Agnes Zawadzki vis a vis citizenship in another country.

Morgan Matthews wanted to compete for Canada with new partner Leif Gislason, but citing Matthews/Zavozins's JW Championship, USFS held Morgan back for four years. The US federation could do that because Morgan was NOT a Canadian citizen and even with expedited handling, couldn't have become a Canadian citizen at an early date because M/Z lived and trained in the US---not Canada---at the time, and Morgan couldn't accrue enough residency time for several years.

OTOH, Agnes Zawadzki could easily obtain a Polish passport since her parents were born in Poland; the Polish federation would surely be delighted with the opportunity to have Agnes represent them in ISU competition. According to ISU rules, USFS couldn't hold her back because she would be a citizen of the country she wished to represent.

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Not necessarily. Agnes did well skating for the USA. She could have Polish citizenship, but the USFSA could still hold her back if their rules require further time, as it did for Morgan.

Was the original title of this thread changed?
I don't recall that it originally was restricted to singles skating -- so this post is about ice dancers.

(1) Attn: Shibutani-watchers

(2)

moon said:

I need to begin by saying that I have a very strong opinion on this topic because of my background. After many years of waiting I became a Canadian citizen 3 years ago. I immigrated to Canada because its political and social policies were those that I beleived in. I take great pride in my citizenship that I have fought long and hard for.
I have a big problem with athletes obtaining citizenship solely for attending the Olympics. Compete at GPs and Worlds. The Olympics to me is more about country, pride and patriotism for the athletes as well as the spectators. Seeing a "temporary" citizen stand to listen to their anthem and know that the anthem has basically no meaning to them other than the fact that they have received a medal. I find it insulting to those of us that feel citizenship is an immense privilege and not just a party favour that allows you to compete at a certain event.
There are several wonderful skaters and teams that I am very fond of but they absolutely loose my sympathy in their quest for citizenship in a country that they obviously have no intention of living in or being a contributing member of once they finish skating.
So, this morning I became very angry when I saw an athlete that is pursuing Canadian citizenship in order to compete at the Olympics tweet a photograph of our Immigration and Citizenship Minister holding up a new passport and in the next breath tweet how proud they were to be American and how special Independence Day is to them.
For those of us that have worked so hard to obtain our citizenship it is demeaning.

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Hi, moon. First, congratulations on achieving your Canadian citizenship. Understand that it is a very significant accomplishment for you.

That said, my immediate family includes both American and Canadian citizens, so I believe that strong and sincere feelings for the U.S. and for Canada are not mutually exclusive.
I hope you saw what @PiperGilles was tweeting on July 1 as well as on July 4.
It is true that Gilles did not pursue Canadian citizenship until joining forces on the ice with Poirier. But I think her personal attachment to Canada is deeper than mere fulfillment of an Olympic requirement.

BTW, seems that Gilles is still awaiting her Canadian citizenship:

(3) Comments from Kaitlyn Weaver about becoming Canadian are included in this article a few days ago:

golden411 said:

Was the original title of this thread changed?......................

It is true that Gilles did not pursue Canadian citizenship until joining forces on the ice with Poirier. But I think her personal attachment to Canada is deeper than mere fulfillment of an Olympic requirement.

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I am not sure how much attachment there is. Not only did she not pursue citizenship until she started with Poirier, but her mother never pursued her Canadian citizenship until Piper started with Poirier. Mrs. G. had to become Canadian first and then in turn applied for her two daughters.

It appears like the attachment is to a guaranteed Olympic spot.

The rule allowing second generation born abroad individuals Canadian citizenship changed not too long ago.

jolen said:

I am not sure how much attachment there is. Not only did she not pursue citizenship until she started with Poirier, but her mother never pursued her Canadian citizenship until Piper started with Poirier. Mrs. G. had to become Canadian first and then in turn applied for her two daughters.

It appears like the attachment is to a guaranteed Olympic spot.

The rule allowing second generation born abroad individuals Canadian citizenship changed not too long ago.

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LOL, Canada has at least three dance couples who would disagree that Gilles/Poirier are "guaranteed" to receive the third Olympic spot. And after Poirier's injury (not a laughing matter), counting G/P's chickens before they hatch makes even less sense.

Alexe Gilles surely cannot have any expectation that Canada ever would give her an Olympic spot for ladies unless she earns it fair and square.

Crone/Poirier finished 12th at Worlds before going to the Olympics, where they finished 14th.
Gilles/Poirier were 18th at 2013 Worlds, which didn't help their Olympic hopes even before Paul broke his ankle.

moon said:

More valid? You think that people that are seeking freedom of choice, religion and politics have a less valid reason for gaining citizenship into a country that will become their home than someone who needs citizenship for two weeks to participate in a sporting event and then most likely will never set foot in that country again.
I think it comes down to how different people value citizenship. Perhaps we have become used to it being cheapened in the sports world.

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Yes, more valid. They dedicated their chosen sport their whole childhood. Hours and hours hard work. The decision to seek freedom of choice, religion and politics could have been made without making comparable sacrifices to those the athletes do. You value freedom of choice, religion and politics above everything else and therefore in your eyes your reason is more valid than anyone else's reason. But for the athletes who sacrificed so much, they value above all the Olympics, for them their reason will be more valid than yours (and I would agree with them). You are calling it to "being cheapened in the sports world". Anyone more cynical could say about your reason that you only moved for better life. Whose reason is more valid is matter of opinion. If you ask different people, you get different answers.I believe they have a strong reason.

Ah good – somebody revived this thread!

golden411 said:

Was the original title of this thread changed?
I don't recall that it originally was restricted to singles skating -- so this post is about ice dancers.

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Firstly, no the title of this thread has NOT been changed. I deliberately wanted the discussion to be about singles skaters.

We regularly see pairs skaters and ice dancers changing the country they represent (usually because their skating partner is of a different nationality), but it doesn’t happen so much in singles skating. So, I wanted to bring up the issue and see what people thought about it.


Now onto why I am glad this thread has been revived. There is something I have been wondering for a year or so, and I thought you guys might be able to help enlighten me.

As you may or may not know, I am also a fan of ski jumping. And, over the past few years, I have been taking a particular interest in the fortunes of the Italian ladies team.

When the Women’s World Cup first started in 2011, Elena Runggaldier, Roberta d’Agostina and Evelyn Insam were all closely matched. But, it was clear that Elena Runggaldier was the front runner of the team. After all, she had recently won a silver at the World Championships (in 2010).

However, since then Insam has become the stand-out jumper, regularly getting top-10 finishes and even the odd podium last season. On the other hand, Runggaldier has become a mid-field jumper, while d’Agostina has been struggling to even get through to the 2nd round.

It is almost as if the further Evelyn goes forward, the further Elena and Roberta go backwards.

To somebody on the outside looking in, it looks as if the Italian team are putting all their weight behind Evelyn, and are not giving the same attention to Elena and Roberta. Which, given Elena’s past success, seems very unfortunate.

That started me thinking. Elena (like Evelyn) is from the South Tyrol, and is ethnic Austrian. So, is it theoretically possible for Elena to switch to the Austrian team if she feels she is not getting the attention she deserves from the Italian team?


Time for a quick history lesson. In 1919, the Treaty of St Germain transferred the South Tyrol to Italy, purely so that Italy would have access to the strategic Brenner Pass through the Alps. Before that, the South Tyrol was part of Austria.

Even though nearly 100 years have passed, the majority of the population of the South Tyrol is still ethnic Austrian, and the first language most people speak is still German (and the second language is usually Ladin. For most people, Italian is only their third language spoken).


The reason I am asking this question on skating forum is that one of the members of the Italian figure skating team has the same background as Elena Runggaldier:

• They are from the South Tyrol
• They are ethnic Austrian
• They speak German as their first language

You may have heard tell of this skater. Their name is… Carolina Kostner.

Of course, at this stage of her career, there is no way Carolina would switch teams. But, I am still interested to know whether it is theoretically possible that somebody from the South Tyrol could represent Austria.

Thank you

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Ah good – somebody revived this thread!

Firstly, no the title of this thread has NOT been changed. I deliberately wanted the discussion to be about singles skaters.

We regularly see pairs skaters and ice dancers changing the country they represent (usually because their skating partner is of a different nationality), but it doesn’t happen so much in singles skating. So, I wanted to bring up the issue and see what people thought about it.

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My apologies for my poor memory, CLF. (Maybe I had this thread confused with another one from the past? :confused2

Regarding singles skaters (as well as other skaters):
With all due respect to the good intentions of posters on this thread and others, I find it quite presumptuous to engage in speculation as to whether Skater X should/could skate for another country -- if X has never even hinted that a possible switch has even crossed her/his mind. Just because some skaters have changed their nationalities does not mean that all skaters are willing to go to such lengths only for the sake of their skating.
Example: Somehow Gao's name came up for discussion earlier in this thread. But has Gao ever said one word to suggest that skating for China might interest her? Just because her prospects for reaching the Olympics might improve does not automatically mean that she would have any desire whatsoever to skate for China.