Possible alternative nationalities in singles skating | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Possible alternative nationalities in singles skating

cassiem

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Even if Agnes wanted to switch to Poland, it's probably not a feasible option for her because she probably wouldn't be allowed to compete internationally for a very long time. It's rumored that U.S. Figure Skating told Morgan Matthews they would hold her for FOUR years because of her competitive record. Since Agnes had two World Junior medals, they could likewise block her for a long time. I don't think Agnes being entitled to Polish citizenship would help her much. Volosozhar still had to get a release from Ukraine even though her Russian ancestry allowed her to get Russian citizenship very quickly.

I think many of the suggestions just aren't feasible for the skaters unfortunately. It seems Russia's relations with Georgia are really tense (see poor Gedevanishvili's experiences). Countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithunia, and Ukraine have large Russian minorities which has also caused some tensions. The non-Russians feel a bit threatened culturally and citizenship tends to be a very sensitive issue in those countries. They generally don't allow duel citizenship. Volosozhar apparently had to relinquish her Ukrainian citizenship.

But Armenia, Azerbaijan, and the Central Asian republics could be a good idea for some Russian skaters. I heard that Evgenia Medvedeva is half-Armenian. She does appear quite southern, moreso than Pogorilaya.

Anyway, can anyone tell me, what are Polina K's and Anna Ovcharova's connections to Estonia and Switzerland? I'm very curious!
I don't think Polina K has any connection to Estonia, it was just a random suggestion. As for Ovcharova, apparently part of her family had moved over there and she liked the country so she decided to move there too.
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia_at_the_Olympics

Saudi Arabia needs a woman to represent it at the Winter Olympics, if it ever wants to field a team (which it hasn't, as yet) (see above what they had to go through at the last summer Olympics)

Even better if the Arabian team can get Yasmin to switch then, as it would allow them to kill 2 birds with one stone! They would get a way into competing at the Winter Olympics, and get a pretty decent skater into the bargain at the same time.

Perhaps she can compete for Bahrain, which has an indoor ski slope and may want to compete at the next winter olympics?

Mmmm. Not sure about what relationships there are between Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. The Wikipedia article on the matter doesn't really tell us much. So, I'm not sure whether it would be possible for somebody from one country to represent the other or not.


Even if Agnes wanted to switch to Poland, it's probably not a feasible option for her because she probably wouldn't be allowed to compete internationally for a very long time. It's rumored that U.S. Figure Skating told Morgan Matthews they would hold her for FOUR years because of her competitive record. Since Agnes had two World Junior medals, they could likewise block her for a long time. I don't think Agnes being entitled to Polish citizenship would help her much. Volosozhar still had to get a release from Ukraine even though her Russian ancestry allowed her to get Russian citizenship very quickly.

WOW! With all the switching countries going on in Ice Dancing and Pairs Skating, I didn't think embargoes existed in figure skating.

But, I do know all too well about embargoes that are incurred when a sportsperson switches countries, as it is currently happening with 2 guys I know personally.

In terms of sport, the school I went to is best known for field hockey. Indeed, quite a few guys I went to school with have played hockey for Ireland (Northern Ireland doesn't have it's own hockey team; instead there is an all-Ireland team, which is dominated by Northern players).

2 of these guys who I went to school with (David Ames and Ian Sloan) announced a few months ago that they are to switch to playing for Great Britain (Story on BBC website). Personally, I think they're mad - Great Britain has a larger population than Ireland; so there is a bigger pool of players to select from in GBR than there is in IRE; therefore you are less likely to get selected for GBR than you are for IRE.

Both players are now on a 3-year embargo from international hockey. Which, given how good they are, is a real shame. Also, taking 3 years out from a sport is always risky, as things move on and the people in charge may forget about you. (Mind you, taking time out didn't do Kim Yu-Na any harm. ;) :biggrin: Although, for her, it was only 18 months as opposed to 36 months).

However, I do think David and Ian timed the decision to switch countries very cleverly, as they are both at University now, and the embargo will allow them to concentrate on their studies without the added distraction of an international hockey career. ;)

But, personally, I don't agree with embargoes, as long periods of time out of action often destroy promising sporting careers. :no: In my opinion, embargoes are just a way for the former country represented to punish the sportsperson for choosing to leave them :disagree:.

CaroLiza_fan
 

Brenda

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Regarding American skaters like Zawadzki, Cain, and Cesario, I imagine the reason they're still skating for the United States is because the star potential of American ladies figure skating is still miles and miles ahead of any of their country options. Kristi, Nancy, Michelle, Tara, Sasha all got huge endorsements and touring contracts and were immensely popular, but any one of them probably aspire to pull off a Sarah Hughes (Zawadzki in particular), who didn't do too shabby after stealing away the gold in Salt Lake City. Cain is still young and judges loved her on the JGP (not to mention that as hard it is to find a pairs partner in the US, it's still a lot easier than looking in Australia or waiting for someone to be released to skate for Australia). As for Cesario, she may be quite a few generations removed from Italy...and after the Italian fed debacle with Kostner and Olympic spots, perhaps Samantha would rather take her chances in the US, where at least she is a fan favorite because she easily looks and skates the part of the American ice princess. And despite missing nationals twice, she was still getting international assignments, so she probably still thought she could make a splash at some point. Of course there isn't a big American star now and the USFS isn't promoting a Gracie-Ashley rivalry as much as it probably could, but history is probably causing many American girls to hold on to the hope of Wheaties boxes, Campbell's soup commercials, Time Magazine covers, etc.

Ksenia Makarova really lucked out being in the right time and place of having Russian citizenship at a time when the Russian ladies field was really uncompetitive. Figure skating is of course huge in Russia and the country was primed for a new Irina (too bad Ksenia never really delivered). Anyways, I just don't really see any American skater with a full or almost-full set of triples switching to any country other than Russia, Japan, or perhaps Canada...Russia is now too competitive, Japan has been consistently competitive for over a decade, star potential in Canada seem to rise and fall and at this current time, is looking to be competitive for the next Olympiad. Looking beyond 2014, the question is probably Japan, which doesn't really have anyone lined up except Kanako Murakami. Mirai Nagasu is entitled to dual Japanese citizenship until she has to choose on her 22nd birthday, which won't happen until the end of the 2014-15 season, (if my math is correct, that means she could sit out next season and compete fully starting July 2014, since the rule is no international competitions within 12 months prior and no championships within 18 months prior to July 1 of a future season...so Mirai's last international comp being NHK 2012, just barely squeezes her in). So in effect she could try her luck for Japan in 2014-15, and decide whether to keep skating for Japan or pull a Tanaka and switch back on her birthday in April 2015. And then if she sits out another 12 mo or 18 mo depending on whether she represents Japan in a championship event, should she choose the American citizenship, she should be able to be released from Japan by the 2017-18 season. Not that I'm recommending or even thinking this could be a realistic option, but it's fun to speculate.

Anyway, can anyone tell me, what are Polina K's and Anna Ovcharova's connections to Estonia and Switzerland? I'm very curious!

Anna Ovcharova has been living in Geneva since December 2011. She attends a prep school there and is training with Lambiel's coach Peter Grutter and choreographer Salome Brunner. She competed at Swiss nationals this season and won the silver--she can compete internationally next season but not the Olympics. It seems that Swiss naturalization law requires 12 years residency (with years between ages 10-20 counting double); since my math is terrible I'm not sure if that means Ovcharova will barely make or miss getting citizenship by 2018 Olys (I don't know if Switzerland has any expedited path, anyone know?). Ovcharova actually has some other "possible alternate nationalities." On her Formspring she has mentioned having some Ukrainian heritage too. And her family also has a house in France, which seems to have less strict requirements for naturalization and has a history of giving expedited citizenship to skaters (it only took Vanessa James two years to get her French passport), although French Nationals is a tougher field than Swiss.

Ovcharova is an interesting case/exception amongst the Russian girls. Since the Soviet era and into today many (most?) of the top skaters came from very poor family backgrounds who were highly driven in skating because it was their ticket out of poverty. Kudriavtsev has said that money was Kulik's primary motivator, and I remember a video of 10-yr old Gachinski saying the same. There are a lot more "middle-class" skaters in Russia today than in the 90s, but very few would be able to afford the cost of private coaching in North America or Western Europe. Before her senior GP international success no doubt brought her more sponsors and funding that allowed her family to move to St. Petersburg, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva had to take 20-hour train rides between her hometown of Glazov and St Pete to train with Mishin every few weeks because her family could not afford to move to the bigger city. Contrast that to Ovcharova who, when she lived in Moscow, was driven to her rink everyday by the family driver.

I find this contrast really interesting--we've seen this story time and time again in the USA media between skaters whose parents were either penny-pinching immigrant restaurant-owners (Kwan, Nagasu) and wealthy (often Jewish) lawyers (Cohen, Hughes, Lipinski), but we rarely ever hear anything besides the rise-out-of-poverty/single-motherhood story from Russian skaters (Plushenko being the posterboy). Anna Ovcharova seems to be a very different (rare) breed of Russian skater--one who skates only because she truly loves it and prioritizes artistry (I imagine it's much easier to get in touch with your voidy side when you're not facing the constant pressure of earning funding/keeping the support of your coach and federation, which seems to demand consistent 3-3's over everything else). Going forward, her path will probably be very different from the other Russian girls. Of course I don't know everyone's financial situations, but I kept quite a few of the wonder girls we saw at nationals and junior nationals to simply get lost in the shuffle. Expectedly, puberty and injury will take a few of them out, but I imagine a few more will face that cycle of skating badly at some domestic comp/test skate/nats, not get the prestigious international assignments, lose the primary attention of their coach, and regress in their skills. If their reputation/ability isn't high enough to truly impress a small foreign federation, offers to switch countries may not come with enough funding, if any. Someone like Ovcharova may end up outlasting them all barring injury (though not necessarily at a worlds-top-10 level). It makes me wonder about Menshov's background--we rarely ever see Russian male skaters train and compete so long without much national success--Menshov didn't win nationals until he was 27, I can't imagine the federation funding him enough to train fulltime for so long - did he have another job/source of income/family money?

One question I do have, is so many naturalization laws require an individual to be at least 18 years old; and children can receive citizenship if their parents meet the nationalization requirements. Now this is purely speculation, but would someone like Serafima Sakhanovich (or any even younger prodigy we haven't even heard of yet) compete for a different country at the 2018 games? Sakhanovich's birthday is February 8, 2000, which means she turns 18 one day before the 2018 Opening Ceremony (scheduled for February 9)...surely she would have to present proof of citizenship by an earlier entry deadline. Are there any special paths for under-18s, especially if switching within the former Soviet Union? While I can see countries offering citizenships to promising athletes, I can't imagine any government willing to to give out extra companion citizenships to parents who don't have any special talent to offer themselves. (speaking only of naturalization---of course children often have citizenships by birth that their parents don't have...but I've never heard of a minor getting naturalized by himself/herself).


Armin's Wikipedia article didn't really talk much about his family background, except to tell us what his name means in Persian. So, according to Wikipedia, it would seem that Iran is his only other option.

While we generally equate Persia with Iran, culturally and linguistically Persia's influence is much greater and a person with a Persian name could have roots in over half a dozen countries around Iran. Nevertheless, I would guess Armin's family is most likely from Iran (lots in the USA and huge Iranian-American population in the DC area where he is from), but Iran was quite the melting-pot itself, so Armin may easily have some other ties. The "-zadeh" surname suffix is fairly common both in and around Iran, especially in Azerbaijan and amongst the Azeri minority in Iran, which is why I actually think Armin should be looking at Azerbaijan (and not in the typical association we have of skaters switching to Azerbaijan as a last resort a la Joelle Forte and Fedor Andreev). There has been a large (16%) Azeri population in Iran for centuries and substantial intermarriage/integration that Armin may easily be Azeri or have Azeri ancestors. Iranian-Azeris were encouraged to adopt Persian names, and upwardly mobile Iranian Azeris living in the major cities in the early 20th century often identified culturally as Persian. Armin if you're reading this, start working that family tree! We all know that an Azerbaijan passport is very easy to get, and while its skating fed/olympic committee did deserve all the ridicule it got for essentially buying foreign talent, it's time the Azerbaijan skating fed earns some legitimacy. This doesn't have to be Armin (who, idk, may not necessarily have any Azeri heritage at all, it's all speculative--still, even if he doesn't, his Persian name wouldn't cause any casual Azeri sports fan to raise an eyebrow), but perhaps there are younger skaters out there with some forgotten Azeri heritage (perhaps even Siraj?); it would certainly legitimize them more than getting second-rate skaters from Mother Russia. On a political tangent, Azerbaijan is now keen to annex the Azeri part of Iran, and getting some Iranian-Azeri-American athletes to embrace their Azeri heritage would certainly help its case.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
My understanding is that USFS will "embargo" skaters from switching to a different federation for several years if the federation has already invested significant money etc. in their development -- which they will have done if the skater has already earned important international medals that qualified them for A and B funding envelopes. Other major federations probably have similar policies.

From the skaters' point of view, the best time to think about switching countries is before they have any international assignments -- or at least before they win major international medals.

For the young skaters, though, they probably still hold hope that they will become US stars, which would be more prestigious and generally more lucrative. Small start-up federations are not likely to be able to offer any funding, and just traveling to their nationals might be significant extra expense.

Also, of course, fans are not likely to start speculating about skaters who haven't already earned at least some national success.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I've always wished Lynn Kriengkrairut and Logan Giuletti-Schmit could have found another country to compete for, other than the US.

These days, Thailand is an ISU member!
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
I can kinda see the USFSA point about investing in skaters then having them leave for other countries, but it seems short sighted. Skating in the US benefits from skating doing well internationally too. NBC would like it too if they could cover multiple skaters in the mix with US connections
 

rvi5

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
My understanding is that USFS will "embargo" skaters from switching to a different federation for several years if the federation has already invested significant money etc. in their development -- which they will have done if the skater has already earned important international medals that qualified them for A and B funding envelopes. Other major federations probably have similar policies.

From the skaters' point of view, the best time to think about switching countries is before they have any international assignments -- or at least before they win major international medals.

For the young skaters, though, they probably still hold hope that they will become US stars, which would be more prestigious and generally more lucrative. Small start-up federations are not likely to be able to offer any funding, and just traveling to their nationals might be significant extra expense.

Also, of course, fans are not likely to start speculating about skaters who haven't already earned at least some national success.

I can kinda see the USFSA point about investing in skaters then having them leave for other countries, but it seems short sighted. Skating in the US benefits from skating doing well internationally too. NBC would like it too if they could cover multiple skaters in the mix with US connections


http://trueslant.com/jenniferkirk/2009/08/18/a-federation-doesnt-own-its-athletes/


Where is Morgan Matthews now?
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
This is actually the topic of my PHD thesis, so perhaps I can shed some light on it!
....
It is kind of true that Finns don't travel much to St Petersburg, even though it's so close. The complicated visa process (and high cost of visas) puts a barrier up,
When people will start bringing sources before to claim this or that I wonder :confused:.

Here's the official portal of St-Petersburg government. Data on 2009 says: 2,300,000 foreing tourists (total number of tourists is 4.8mil, the population of the city is 4.5mil in 2009). By country: 1. Finland- 577k (i.e. around 24% of total foreign tourists in the city were from Finland), 2. Germany-173k, .. others: http://old.gov.spb.ru/day/cultur/tourizm . Data for 2010 (bilingual, the population of the city is 4.8mil): http://gov.spb.ru/helper/culture/tourizm/ . In 2012 about 1.4mil tourists from Finland visited Russia, mostly St-Petersburg followed by Moscow (on the second place- Polish tourists, 3rd- Germans). The population of Finland is 5.4mil, i.e. about 25% of the total population visited Russia: http://spb.itar-tass.com/c344/666543.html . If you compare the data for the last couple of years, the number of tourists is growing, not declining. Russian visa cost for Finnish citizens is 35 euros (70 euros fast track) http://www.rusembassy.fi/visas_information.htm Schengen visa cost for Russian citizens issued by the Finnish consulate is 35 euros (70 euros for fast track) http://www.finland.org.ru/public/default.aspx?nodeid=36987&contentlan=15&culture=ru-RU So? :cool:
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
This is a reply to Benda's post on page 3.

Brenda, myself and various other members have already mentioned this in passing in this thread, but perhaps I should just emphasise the following point.

There are certain countries where it is so competitive to get into the team that, if they have the option, it would be better for a skater to switch away from, than to switch to:

  1. The USA
  2. Canada
  3. Russia
  4. China
  5. Japan

If you are already skating for one of the countries on the list, and have the option of competing for another country on the list, there is no point contemplating switching. You may as well just stay where you are, as it is unlikely to improve your chances of getting selected anyway.

So, there is no point in Christina Gao trying to swap the US for China; or Andrei Rogozine trying to swap Canada for Russia; or Mirai Nagasu trying to swap the US for Japan.

Similarly, if you are skating for a country not on the list, and have the option of competing for another country not on the list, there is not much point contemplating switching.

I know that I keep referring to Denis Ten as being “Korean” (because his whole family is Korean), but he may as well just stick with Kazakhstan. Like, no disrespect to the other male skaters in Kazakhstan, but Denis doesn’t exactly have a lot of strong competition for the Kazakh slot.

But, if you are skating for one of the countries on the list, and have the option of competing for a country not on the list, by all means contemplate switching! It could be the making of your career! That is why I advised Agnes Zawadzki to switch to Poland.


I was trying to avoid talking about Vanessa James, as I have mentioned the issue of her switching countries a few times in other threads, and I didn't want it to look like I was picking on her. But, the context in which Brenda has brought her into the conversation is actually quite interesting, and it allows me to ask something I have been wondering for quite a few years!

Right, Vanessa and her twin sister Melyssa were born in Ontario, Canada, but they grew up in the ancestral homeland of Bermuda.

As Bermuda is still a British dependency, they are British citizens. Since the Canadian championship is far more competitive than the British championship, they both opted to compete in Britain rather than in their birth country.

Unfortunately for the James sisters, they came up against a girl from my home country (Jenna McCorkell). So, Melyssa stayed in Britain, but switched to Ice Dance. Vanessa, on the other hand, moved to France, and then switched to Pairs Skating.

As Brenda has pointed out, Vanessa got French citizenship very quickly. I have often wondered whether the fact that she was born in Canada had anything to do with this. OK, so the James girls were born in Ontario (mainly English-speaking) rather than neighbouring Quebec (mainly French-speaking).

With Canada being a former British Dominion, I know that there are some special arrangements between the 2 countries over various things. But, I don’t know if there are similar arrangements between France and its former colony of Quebec; or between France and Canada as a whole.

So, would this have helped Vanessa get her French citizenship fast-tracked?


Also, good point about Azerbaijan and Iran. I had never thought of that possibility.

I suppose the same could be the case with Armenia and Turkey. But, there is so much bad feeling between these 2 countries that there would be outrage if somebody switched from one to the other.

Although the last thing that I wanted was for this thread (or any other thread I have started) to stray into politics, the way it has crept into the conversation is actually quite interesting.

CaroLiza_fan
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
This is a reply to Benda's post on page 3.

Brenda, myself and various other members have already mentioned this in passing in this thread, but perhaps I should just emphasise the following point.

There are certain countries where it is so competitive to get into the team that, if they have the option, it would be better for a skater to switch away from, than to switch to:

  1. The USA
  2. Canada
  3. Russia
  4. China
  5. Japan

If you are already skating for one of the countries on the list, and have the option of competing for another country on the list, there is no point contemplating switching. You may as well just stay where you are, as it is unlikely to improve your chances of getting selected anyway.

So, there is no point in Christina Gao trying to swap the US for China; or Andrei Rogozine trying to swap Canada for Russia; or Mirai Nagasu trying to swap the US for Japan.

Similarly, if you are skating for a country not on the list, and have the option of competing for another country not on the list, there is not much point contemplating switching.

I know that I keep referring to Denis Ten as being “Korean” (because his whole family is Korean), but he may as well just stick with Kazakhstan. Like, no disrespect to the other male skaters in Kazakhstan, but Denis doesn’t exactly have a lot of strong competition for the Kazakh slot.

But, if you are skating for one of the countries on the list, and have the option of competing for a country not on the list, by all means contemplate switching! It could be the making of your career! That is why I advised Agnes Zawadzki to switch to Poland.

I think the explanation about the countries on your list and off the list is mostly true, but not hundred percent true. I think it not only depends on from which country to which country you want to move, but what the level of competition is there at the moment (and the level of juniors coming through within the next few years).

For example, if Mirai Nagasu who is skating for US had tinier figure and decided to do pairs, there would be no reason why she couldn't switch to Japan. As she would be eligible for Japanese citizenship, she wouldn't have any problems with being accepted by Japanese Federation. Considering that she hasn't had much success the last few years, the US Federation may not make it difficult for her (or she would have to just sit it out).

Another example - Shibutanis. Japanese don't have that great pairs, so that would potentially be successful transfer. Unfortunately they are too successful at the moment and the US Federation may try to keep them/delay the transfer for far too long. But as they are young, if they saw that they are being overtaken by too many couples and that they won't have any future in the US, it would be a possibility.

You are right, I don't think it is worth moving from any country (both on your list and not on your list) to USA or Canada, because the level of the competition is too high. The same about moving to Russia in ladies, dance and pairs; however I do think that Russians would get used to imported man if no one was better than him. That imported man would have to be really good, because if he was only as good as home born Russian man, the Russian man would be held up within Russia. (but then again, if the imported man was really so good, why would he want to move from his own country?)

Until recently I thought that China would happily adopt any man or lady, but seeing the new young ones (e.g. Han Yan) coming through, I don't think they need any men or ladies to import now.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
That's a big number of Finns going to Russia! It's so close especially to st petersberg that I would imagine any kind of retail sale at a store would make it attractive to go to! Lol!

Julia li going to Korea wouldn't be bad but like zawadzki going to Poland the federation might not let them go. The willingness of federation to let skaters go is the biggest thing.
 

murtle92

Spectator
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
no to Nam Nguyen! I like that we Canadians have him plus he'll fully come into his own the next olympic cycle at least he has a better coach now
 

Cherryy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
There are certain countries where it is so competitive to get into the team that, if they have the option, it would be better for a skater to switch away from, than to switch to:

  1. The USA
  2. Canada
  3. Russia
  4. China
  5. Japan

If you are already skating for one of the countries on the list, and have the option of competing for another country on the list, there is no point contemplating switching. You may as well just stay where you are, as it is unlikely to improve your chances of getting selected anyway.

I generally agree with one exception - are there so many good skaters in China? They have only Li in ladies, Song in men, yeah some good pairs and no great ice dancers actually, I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think switching to China would give Gao rather easy access to worlds.
Christina Gao would easily make the China team with Zijun.
 

Brenda

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
I generally agree with one exception - are there so many good skaters in China? They have only Li in ladies, Song in men, yeah some good pairs and no great ice dancers actually, I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think switching to China would give Gao rather easy access to worlds.
Christina Gao would easily make the China team with Zijun.

How much (rather, how little) freedom do Chinese skaters have to choose their own coaches though? It seems like the national champs do travel to North America for at least a few weeks each season to get choreography (Nichol and Buttle), but they all have Chinese coaches. The Chinese fed is very nationalistic and I'm not sure how well they'd take to having a foreign-born skater with foreign choreographers AND foreign coaches. Christina was stagnating under Orser in Toronto, but this season we saw a much more confident, poised, and mature skater after starting Harvard and training under Mark Mitchell and Peter Johansson. It seems to be working well for her right now, and I imagine the Chinese fed would demand to have a lot of input into her training situation. IIRC Lu Chen had a lot of conflicts with her fed back in the day, and of course Shen and Zhao's lives were not easy by any stretch.

Another potential issue is the Chinese internal seniority/ranking issue. Over the past two seasons, we've seen Han Yan get shafted for international assignments in favor of Nan Song, decisions that many people online seem to attribute Chinese culture valuing seniority. Suppose Christina bombs at Chinese nationals and places behind Kexin Zhang (not very probable but still possible, Zhang does 3T3T in sp and tries 7 triples in FS, she was 23rd in London but did place 7th at 2012 Worlds). What then? If Christina's fate is to continually miss world championship spots, I think she'll still have a better career competing for the US as she is now. The US fed still has more politik power than China (who are probably putting all of the few horses they have behind Zijun Li for 2015 Shanghai, a competition that Christina would not be released in time for--July 1, 2014 is only 17 months after 4CC 2013, and she needs 18 months). If the earliest Worlds she can compete at for China is 2016, then a switch would mean she's giving up two very good opportunities to qualify in 2014 and 2015. USA has 3 spots for 2014, and even if Gao doesn't make the Olympic team, any one or more of those team members could choose to withdraw from the post-Oly worlds for various reasons (medal, tour, exhaustion, retirement, etc), and 4th or 5th place at nationals could get sent.
 

Cherryy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
How much (rather, how little) freedom do Chinese skaters have to choose their own coaches though? It seems like the national champs do travel to North America for at least a few weeks each season to get choreography (Nichol and Buttle), but they all have Chinese coaches. The Chinese fed is very nationalistic and I'm not sure how well they'd take to having a foreign-born skater with foreign choreographers AND foreign coaches. Christina was stagnating under Orser in Toronto, but this season we saw a much more confident, poised, and mature skater after starting Harvard and training under Mark Mitchell and Peter Johansson. It seems to be working well for her right now, and I imagine the Chinese fed would demand to have a lot of input into her training situation. IIRC Lu Chen had a lot of conflicts with her fed back in the day, and of course Shen and Zhao's lives were not easy by any stretch.

Yeah, I agree. Christina may even retire after 2014 and concentrate on Harvard. I thought that maybe some novice skaters skating for US with chinese parents/grandparents should switch to China but after what you said I guess sometimes staying in the US may be a better choice. I didn't realise chinese may get so angry if you don't have chinese team working along with you. :eek:hwell:
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
For example, if Mirai Nagasu who is skating for US had tinier figure and decided to do pairs, there would be no reason why she couldn't switch to Japan. As she would be eligible for Japanese citizenship, she wouldn't have any problems with being accepted by Japanese Federation. Considering that she hasn't had much success the last few years, the US Federation may not make it difficult for her (or she would have to just sit it out).

Another example - Shibutanis. Japanese don't have that great pairs, so that would potentially be successful transfer. Unfortunately they are too successful at the moment and the US Federation may try to keep them/delay the transfer for far too long. But as they are young, if they saw that they are being overtaken by too many couples and that they won't have any future in the US, it would be a possibility.

That's great in theory, but what about the Japanese rules over dual-nationality?

You are allowed dual-nationality until you turn 21, and then you have to choose one country or the other.

At the time of the Takahashi/Tran split, I was very scathing about the Japanese rules, and specifically the way the Japanese treat the descendants of their own people. (e.g. in my first comment in that thread: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...and-Tran-Split&p=692307&viewfull=1#post692307 )

Of the skaters you mentioned, Mirai and Maia are still young enough to have dual-nationality. But Alex has already turned 21. So, presumably he has already renounced his Japanese nationality. I don't know if you can reverse your decision after it has been made, but it would mean Alex would have to renounce his American nationality.

I generally agree with one exception - are there so many good skaters in China? They have only Li in ladies, Song in men, yeah some good pairs and no great ice dancers actually, I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think switching to China would give Gao rather easy access to worlds.
Christina Gao would easily make the China team with Zijun.

Until recently I thought that China would happily adopt any man or lady, but seeing the new young ones (e.g. Han Yan) coming through, I don't think they need any men or ladies to import now.

Sorry Cherryy, but I have to disagree with you and instead agree with hanca on this matter.

Just looking at the Men's medalists at this year's Chinese Nationals (1st Song Nan, 2nd Yan Han, 3rd Jin Boyang) shows that the future's VERY bright in the Men's category. And then we have the brilliant youngster Li Zijun joining Zhang Kexin in the Ladies.

But, I think Cherryy is right that Gao and Li would be the dream team for China in terms of talent. But unfortunately, it is unlikely to happen for the reasons Brenda described. Even though she is ethnic Chinese, Gao will still be seen as a foreign blow-in.

Another potential issue is the Chinese internal seniority/ranking issue. Over the past two seasons, we've seen Han Yan get shafted for international assignments in favor of Nan Song, decisions that many people online seem to attribute Chinese culture valuing seniority.

Although I do think Brenda is spot-on about China's attitudes about seniority, I think there is a simpler explanation about why Song Nan has got the international slot in preference to Yan Han: for the past 2 years, Song Nan has WON Chinese Nationals.

In 2013, Yan was 2nd in Chinese Nationals, just 1.87 points behind Song.
But, in 2012, Yan was 3rd in Chinese Nationals, a full 19.48 points(!) behind Song.

Admittedly, Yan did win Chinese Nationals for the 2 years before that. But the Chinese are probably just looking at it with the view "Song is the guy that's winning Nationals at the moment, so we'll send him".

Plus, the fact that Song has won 3 times (2009, 2012, 2013) to Yan's 2 times (2010, 2011) probably holds some weight as well. ;)

It's a shame because, of the two, Yan is clearly the bigger prospect for the future. But, hopefully whoever is selected next year can do enough to earn China a second slot in the Men's category. China badly need it, because it won't be long until Jin is old enough to join Song and Yan in the fight to be sent to Worlds! ;) :biggrin:

CaroLiza_fan
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
That's great in theory, but what about the Japanese rules over dual-nationality?

You are allowed dual-nationality until you turn 21, and then you have to choose one country or the other.

Of the skaters you mentioned, Mirai and Maia are still young enough to have dual-nationality. But Alex has already turned 21. So, presumably he has already renounced his Japanese nationality. I don't know if you can reverse your decision after it has been made, but it would mean Alex would have to renounce his American nationality.

I am aware that they would have to choose Japanese nationality and renounce the US nationality. But I was talking about an example that it would be possible to go and skate for Japan. If, for example, they had no chance to go to Olympics for USA because they wouldn't be good enough, the theoretical possibility is there to go and skate for Japan. The question is whether it would be worth it for them. But neither of us can decide that for them. We may think that it wouldn't be worth it, but we are not in their shoes. It was worth it for Kavaguti to give up her citizenship...

By the way, how hard would it be to live in the USA while not having US citizenship?
 

MalloryArcher

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
When people will start bringing sources before to claim this or that I wonder :confused:.

Here's the official portal of St-Petersburg government. Data on 2009 says: 2,300,000 foreing tourists (total number of tourists is 4.8mil, the population of the city is 4.5mil in 2009). By country: 1. Finland- 577k (i.e. around 24% of total foreign tourists in the city were from Finland), 2. Germany-173k, .. others: http://old.gov.spb.ru/day/cultur/tourizm . Data for 2010 (bilingual, the population of the city is 4.8mil): http://gov.spb.ru/helper/culture/tourizm/ . In 2012 about 1.4mil tourists from Finland visited Russia, mostly St-Petersburg followed by Moscow (on the second place- Polish tourists, 3rd- Germans). The population of Finland is 5.4mil, i.e. about 25% of the total population visited Russia: http://spb.itar-tass.com/c344/666543.html . If you compare the data for the last couple of years, the number of tourists is growing, not declining. Russian visa cost for Finnish citizens is 35 euros (70 euros fast track) http://www.rusembassy.fi/visas_information.htm Schengen visa cost for Russian citizens issued by the Finnish consulate is 35 euros (70 euros for fast track) http://www.finland.org.ru/public/default.aspx?nodeid=36987&contentlan=15&culture=ru-RU So? :cool:

Wow, ok, you come across as a bit rude. I'm newish to this board, and just joined this month. I hope you're not typical of posters here otherwise I really can't be bothered posting anything here. Mods should take note of posters like you, I think. Way to turn off new members!

We were actually talking about Finnish RESIDENTS of St Petersburg, not TOURISTS or VISITORS. I thought that was clear. I don't really know what debating the number of tourists in St Pete adds to this discussion, but since you seem to have misinterpreted what I said, I'll add this: I mentioned at the end that I think Finns are less likely to travel in St Petersburg, compared to other nearby cities (like Tallinn and Stockholm). Which statistics indicate is TRUE. 25% of Finns may have visited St Petersburg, but approx. 84% have visited Tallinn (source:statistics-finland website). I can speak from experience that traveling to St Pete was significantly more expensive and difficult than going to Stockholm although St Petersburg is much closer geographically to my home. I imagine the cost and difficulties would put at least some people off (ie. the 59% of Finns willing to go to Tallinn but not St Petersburg). Are you disputing this? Do you live Finland, and have visited Russia and at least one other neighbour country, so can give a good comparison to challenge mine? If not, why are you bothering to tell me that there indeed are some Finnish tourists in St Petersburg? I KNOW THAT, I was one myself! duh! :rolleye:

ANYWAY, the core of what I was saying is that there are few Finnish RESIDENTS of St Petersburg. I thought this would be interesting to the poster who asked about Finns in St Petersburg who could apply for Finnish citizenship. As I mentioned, Russians of Finnish descent (Ingrian Finns) were a culturally significant minority in St Petersburg up until the 1990s, when Finnish immigration law allowed them to resettle in Finland. Most Ingrian Finns have left St Petersburg for Finland. The law was changed in 2010, so if any Russians now discover Finnish ancestry it won't help them gain Finnish citizenship. Despite this, Finnish citizenship law is more straight forward than some other European countries (eg Estonia or Latvia. I was surprised someone suggested Estonia as an alternative for Polina K, as Estonian citizenship is very strict). If skaters were to start training in Finland, as long as they could prove some proficiency in Finnish (or Swedish) they could apply for citizenship after 5 years. Some skaters have in fact done this. Alisa Drei of Russia moved to Finland with her mom when she got married to a Finn and got Finnish citizenship, represented Finland in the Olympics (1998 I think). I don't believe acquiring Finnish citizenship without residency is possible unless at least one parent is a Finnish citizen. So hopefully that is of some interest to the discussion on alternative nationalities.

And with that, I'm done. :disapp:
 
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