State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season | Page 38 | Golden Skate

State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I know, right? Like, "American ladies? What a sorry state they're in." :laugh:

After the top 2 it's not that great. I'm hoping for some new blood to step up and take that third spot. I would be disappointed if Alissa, Mirai or Agnes were held up if a more deserving skater performs better.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
The US is in a better position right now than it has been in a while when it comes to depth of talent. There are a lot of up and coming skaters who have the potential to put the US back on the world podium in the coming years. Unfortunately, nearly all of them are still in the developmental stage so they aren't capable of competing at the top just yet. However, there is going to be a massive changing of the guard next year when the majority of the Vancouver holdovers exit. There's going to be a lot of shuffling in the national ranks as well as the international ranks.

I feel like it's going to be an adjustment of sorts for me. Without Mao, Carolina, Akiko and Yu-Na, (who have led the way and really set the bar for artistry, interpretation and performance these last 4 years) I do feel there is going to be a steep drop off in quality of programs from a presentation/interpretation/artistic POV. In terms of refinement, polish, maturity, presentation, interpretation and performance, Gracie, Kaetlyn, Liza, Julia and Zijun are all missing one or more of these qualities. That means it's going to take some time before we see quality packaged programs from these ladies in terms of music, choreography and performance.

Adelina is the exception IMO. She has the polish, maturity, presentation and performance that would allow her to rise to the top of this newer crop of ladies. Technique is what's been killing her the past two years; if her jumps weren't so unstable she could be a world medalist right now. But if all of the aforementioned ladies were given the same music, choreography and jump layout (and assuming everyone skated cleanly), Adelina would score the highest: her jumps are solid when she lands them, her spins are excellent, good speed, great flow and edging, lovely lines and control, she skates big enough to leave an impression, and she knows how to engage an audience and perform. None of the other ladies can do all of that right now...

So I feel like there's going to be a gap in the quality of skating next year but (hopefully) this generation of ladies will continue to mature and grow and we'll end up with complete package skaters in the years to come.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I don't think Sotnikova would have won a medal this past season at Worlds. It was a foregone conclusion that the podium was going to be Kim, Kostner, and Asada unless one did a zamboni impression in multiple locations throughout the rink in both programs. She wasn't eligible the year before to skate at Senior Worlds, because I could see you making a case in 2012 IF she had been eligible. Sotnikova COULD have been 4th/5th in '13 if she'd been clean, though.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
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Joined
May 19, 2011
I don't think Sotnikova would have won a medal this past season at Worlds. It was a foregone conclusion that the podium was going to be Kim, Kostner, and Asada unless one did a zamboni impression in multiple locations throughout the rink in both programs. She wasn't eligible the year before to skate at Senior Worlds, because I could see you making a case in 2012 IF she had been eligible. Sotnikova COULD have been 4th/5th in '13 if she'd been clean, though.

Well assuming her technique issues hadn't been mucking up her skating for the past two seasons the thought is she'd be capable of turning in much better performances which would raise her stock with the judges and increase her PCS. She scored 193.99 at Europeans this year with a clean SP and mostly clean FS (URed 3-3 and a popped flip). If you add maybe 2 points to her score to represent the slight increase in PCS, that would have put her right up there with Mao and Carolina who scored 196.47 and 197.89 respectively.

I don't think she'll catch any of the big guns at this point but I definitely think Adelina could be the front-runner for the post-Sochi bunch IF she cleaned up her technique. IDK if she will or not but, jittery technique aside, she has the goods to compete at the top...especially once the veterans leave.

BUT this is the US ladies thread so I suppose we should steer it back on topic. There are a lot of US girls who look promising right now but, like I said earlier, there are none who are 100% ready. It may take another year or two but I do think the US will end up with 2 or 3 top level ladies capable of challenging at the world level.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Europeans is notoriously overscored, though, as is 4CC. She would have been below those three unless Asada fell on her rear a couple times, and even then, it would have been close. As I said, 4th or 5th (probably 4th, as Kanako took advantage of some others' shortfalls at Worlds this year and Sotnikova clean would have beaten Murakami's outing) would have been the best she could have hoped for.

I think there are a number of ladies who could be dominant after Sochi and at least three of them are from the US. As polish, maturity, and presentation (PE is more an "execution" mark than presentation in the tradiitional sense) aren't really "scored" anywhere under IJS as much as big clean jumps (including a 3+3) and fast, non-clunky and intricate skating which (assuming they fix their headspace) a couple US ladies have in spades already. Gold's already pulling down big scores when she's mostly clean because her tech along with her speed and intricacy are leading to big points already and whether you want to admit it or not, she DOES skate "big" and reaches to the cheap seats, even if it is meh choreography. She needs to be consistent with EVERYTHING and not bury herself with stupid mistakes to build momentum. Hicks has the big ticket elements but needs to work on the non-clunky part to be in that mix and also her consistency and control. Zawadski needs to get consistency (especially on her edge jumps) and a 3Lo. Edmunds needs to gain more power and command in her skating and look less shaky on her elements and make sure everything is rotated completely. Wang needs consistency. Long needs stronger skating skills. Bell needs a 3+3. Miller needs bigger jumps and a 3+3 (although her jumps did look considerably bigger at Grand Rapids this summer than they did last summer when I saw her). Between Bell and Miller, not sure who has more charisma/it factor, but they have the most of this younger US generation of those I've seen in person (and that includes all of the skaters in this paragraph excepting Hicks).
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
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May 19, 2011
Europeans is notoriously overscored, though, as is 4CC. She would have been below those three unless Asada fell on her rear a couple times, and even then, it would have been close. As I said, 4th or 5th (probably 4th, as Kanako took advantage of some others' shortfalls at Worlds this year and Sotnikova clean would have beaten Murakami's outing) would have been the best she could have hoped for.

I think there are a number of ladies who could be dominant after Sochi and at least three of them are from the US. As polish, maturity, and presentation (PE is more an "execution" mark than presentation in the tradiitional sense) aren't really "scored" anywhere under IJS as much as big clean jumps (including a 3+3) and fast, non-clunky and intricate skating which (assuming they fix their headspace) a couple US ladies have in spades already. Gold's already pulling down big scores when she's mostly clean because her tech along with her speed and intricacy are leading to big points already and whether you want to admit it or not, she DOES skate "big" and reaches to the cheap seats, even if it is meh choreography. She needs to be consistent with EVERYTHING and not bury herself with stupid mistakes to build momentum. Hicks has the big ticket elements but needs to work on the non-clunky part to be in that mix and also her consistency and control. Zawadski needs to get consistency (especially on her edge jumps) and a 3Lo. Edmunds needs to gain more power and command in her skating and look less shaky on her elements and make sure everything is rotated completely. Wang needs consistency. Long needs stronger skating skills. Bell needs a 3+3. Miller needs bigger jumps and a 3+3 (although her jumps did look considerably bigger at Grand Rapids this summer than they did last summer when I saw her). Between Bell and Miller, not sure who has more charisma/it factor, but they have the most of this younger US generation of those I've seen in person (and that includes all of the skaters in this paragraph excepting Hicks).

Very true about Europeans and 4CC, but I do think if Adelina had been building momentum since her debut instead of being so back and forth with her skating, she'd be a very strong podium threat. But shoulda, woulda, coulda...

I do think the US has a lot of talent and Gracie is definitely at the top of the list b/c of her technical abilities. She covers the ice well and jumps effortlessly and under this system that's all you really need when you have a strong federation backing you. I think she still has a long way to go in terms of being a complete package skater. Then again if you're going to be half the package, it's better to have the half Gracie has. :)

Between Bell and Miller, I find Miller to be more charismatic on the ice but I do like what I've seen from Bell. Miller's jumps were kind of Tara Lipinski-ish though and that's where Bell beats her out.

I'd add Karen Chen to that list as well. Assuming she gets past puberty in one piece, she's very likely to be a complete package skater.
 

Selene

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Adelina is the exception IMO. She has the polish, maturity, presentation and performance that would allow her to rise to the top of this newer crop of ladies. Technique is what's been killing her the past two years; if her jumps weren't so unstable she could be a world medalist right now. But if all of the aforementioned ladies were given the same music, choreography and jump layout (and assuming everyone skated cleanly), Adelina would score the highest: her jumps are solid when she lands them, her spins are excellent, good speed, great flow and edging, lovely lines and control, she skates big enough to leave an impression, and she knows how to engage an audience and perform. None of the other ladies can do all of that right now...

Except Adelina isn't capable of skating her current programs cleanly, because she keeps putting elements she's incapable of performing with any consistency in her layout. She can't rotate the 3Flutz-3Loop combo, so she's going to get automatic negative GOE there. She has such swingy technique on the axel and lands pitch forward on it, so she can't rotate the triple toe following the double axel. There's more negative GOE. She also insists on doing two flips in her free skate, and she is likely to pop or fall on one of them due to her swingy, poor technique on the entry of the jump, with her edge wobbling back and forth like Caroline Zhang's. So, she "plans" 7 triples, but isn't capable of rotating any more than 4 (5 at best) of them. She needs to realize her technical limitations and change her jump layout. She has a better chance of skating cleanly with Ashley Wagner-type technical content, and maybe the judges would reward her more in PCS for more consistency.

I'd add Karen Chen to that list as well. Assuming she gets past puberty in one piece, she's very likely to be a complete package skater.

Karen Chen needs to fix her UR issues. It's not a good sign that she's already having such severe UR issues when she hasn't even hit puberty yet.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Adelina's program has everything you're looking for in a burlesque show. A few growls, a few puke-inducing moments, cheap choreography, awkward postures. Yup, she's a whole package, alright. One that is left in the rain for too long.

She's more 6-10 type of skaters. Maybe get lucky one day and score a world medal, but I don't see her being chased or being the bronze favorite in any big event in the future, even after the Big Three hang up their skates.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
Adelina's program has everything you're looking for in a burlesque show. A few growls, a few puke-inducing moments, cheap choreography, awkward postures. Yup, she's a whole package, alright. One that is left in the rain for too long.

She's more 6-10 type of skaters. Maybe get lucky one day and score a world medal, but I don't see her being chased or being the bronze favorite in any big event in the future, even after the Big Three hang up their skates.

Oh FlattFan...:rolleye:

She's a talented girl so I won't count her out just yet. Her issues are not irreparable but she does need help to fix them. Whether or not her team actually gets her that help will be a determining factor in where she'll end up post-Sochi.

Selene, I agree with you. I think Adelina does go for quantity over quality. An easier jump layout may make it easier for her to have a clean performance and that would result in better scores all around. As for Karen, I'm not sure if her UR issues are chronic or if it was just nerves. The story may be told later on this week when she competes. If she runs into the same issues again then I might start to worry...
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Adelina also has a 5/2 layout of jumps which is very rare. So if she can do all the difficulty she plans in the first half she wants to do it all right away and really ignores that you can go easier and make the easier things worth a little more if you put them in the bonus section. So she really is ignoring all possible ways to improve her consistency by going easier to chase that 7 triple program with two triple flips and a three jump combo starting out with a flip. It alternates which flip she messes up on. Sometimes it can be the solo flip sometimes it can be the flip starting out the three jump combo. It really varies! There are so many ways her skate could've been improved but tarasova has always ALWAYS had the plan that skaters must always keep going with what they plan until it clicks! Kulik, Asada, etc.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
A local TV station in Salt Lake City aired an in-studio interview with Gracie Gold today.
Has she already said elsewhere that she has started working with a "physical acting mime coach"? I think those are the words that she used today.
(She did not say anything to hint that she will be changing to a new skating coach, although I doubt the interviewer had any inkling of such speculation. The point of the interview was to promote the SLC Classic, of course.)
The video is approx. 3 min. long.
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/to...-to-Olympic-games/lXASxDOVPUusj70n2W8Ymg.cspx (Sep 11)​
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Oh FlattFan...:rolleye:

She's a talented girl so I won't count her out just yet. Her issues are not irreparable but she does need help to fix them. Whether or not her team actually gets her that help will be a determining factor in where she'll end up post-Sochi.

The only remarkable thing is her skating skill. Much better than the other young girls.

Do you like any of her programs?

I can't even watch the entire 4 minutes without getting distracted by something else.

Her problems do not just stop with her techniques. Packaging, strategies, programs, mental strength. If she is with the same people, she will stay exactly where she is now. If she runs away from TAT, her skating career in Russia will be done. It is grim for Adelina.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Okay let's slam the Russian girls. Done. Bored. Oh yeah what was this thread??? Sarcasm. The State of American ladies is looking good. Gold or Wagner are primed for a medal and the continuation of three ladies at Olympics and world's. Now the Russian ladies could have some things to say about that but no lady has show that much promise including consistency of jumps or pcs to challenge Gold or Wagner..
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Now the Russian ladies could have some things to say about that but no lady has show that much promise including consistency of jumps or pcs to challenge Gold or Wagner..

Well Adelina can challenge on PCS, but honestly may not be a factor after this season unless she gets her act together on the jumps. However, I think Elena R has the artistry and the technical ability to beat Gracie once eligible. I really would like for someone to challenge Gracie until her artistry improves because she is such a blah skater to me at the moment. The technical merit isn't enough; great jumpers like Irina, Midori, and even Tara had far more musicality and charisma. I suppose she is marked correctly because her fast, big skating deserves a PCS boost but my interest in her programs just isn't there.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think Adelina does go for quantity over quality. An easier jump layout may make it easier for her to have a clean performance and that would result in better scores all around.

I agree too, and she reminds me a bit of Mao attempting things that are very hit-or-miss. I don't think Adelina would be happy with 4th place and I believe that motivates her to do more difficulty than she should. For example, it is an awful idea for her to be training a 3Z-3R when there is zero chance of +GOE because of the inevitable mistakes. If she can fix her lutz perhaps she can do that alone with a 3T-3T in the SP but she really is trying too many things she isn't great at.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Can I say how much I like Mariah Bell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp8JqOqpqgw

I absolutely love this short program for her. Even with the errors, she made it compelling for me to watch her. And she did flamenco music quite well. I know she needs more technical difficulty, but regardless I appreciate what she brings to the table.
 
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