State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season | Page 12 | Golden Skate

State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
^^That's fair. To be honest Gracie is behind the curve. Most of the ladies make the jump to seniors at 14 or 15...so to be 17 and debuting as a senior is somewhat odd. I know a lot of skaters debut at an older age but the majority of the phenoms come out of the gate younger than Gracie is.

That's one reason I was so annoyed with her this season. At 17 I was expecting a higher level of maturity and development from a performance standpoint. But I realize now it's going to take time for her to gain that experience and grow and mature.

The name of the game with Gracie is patience. Even though her skill level is high and she's older, I rank her with the rest of the 15 year olds and below a few of them when it comes to things like artistry, interpretation, etc.


I think it's good that Gracie waited until 17 to come out as a senior. How many phenoms have we seen come out sooner, at 14 or 15, and then flame out as seniors? Personally, and this is just my opinion, I do feel that Gracie has a stronger presence and generally more mature look out there than the younger phenoms like Lipnitskaia, Li, and even Tukt. Yes, her artistry and musical interpretation definitely need work, but what I like is that Gracie keeps your attention. She has charisma, and that is important. You could argue that Lipnitskaia and Li both have more lovely individual positions than Gracie. But their skating lacks amplitude, and fire, and Gracie has some of that.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I think it's good that Gracie waited until 17 to come out as a senior. How many phenoms have we seen come out sooner, at 14 or 15, and then flame out as seniors? Personally, and this is just my opinion, I do feel that Gracie has a stronger presence and generally more mature look out there than the younger phenoms like Lipnitskaia, Li, and even Tukt. Yes, her artistry and musical interpretation definitely need work, but what I like is that Gracie keeps your attention. She has charisma, and that is important. You could argue that Lipnitskaia and Li both have more lovely individual positions than Gracie. But their skating lacks amplitude, and fire, and Gracie has some of that.

I agree. I don't see why Gracie entering seniors at a later age is a negative thing. If anything, it was the right time for Gracie. Not everyone develops at the same pace or peak at the same time, so I'm not sure if there is some sort of predescribed formula for success.

For what it's worth, Nancy Kerrigan's first U.S. Nationals as a senior was at age 19, and I don't think anyone would say that waiting until then was a detriment to her career. Not everyone is as precocious as Michelle Kwan or Tara Lipinksi (or Adelina, Liza or Julia).
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
When did this content not score above 60 ONCE, much less having "so much trouble breaking 60 in the SP even when she was clean"? She broke 60 in EVERY full season of COP, hardly "so much trouble... when she was clean". How can you make such bold statements without even a cursory look at Wikipedia?

OMG, that is the point. She was clean, and she got 60.82. That means she had trouble breaking 60 in the SP. Do you have to be super precise to make a point?

Gracie URed the 3T, edge violated her flip on her first WC and still scored less than 2 points from Caro.

How can you make such a statement that Caro was even more generously scored when she barely broke 60 in her THIRD season as a senior?
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
I think it's good that Gracie waited until 17 to come out as a senior. How many phenoms have we seen come out sooner, at 14 or 15, and then flame out as seniors? Personally, and this is just my opinion, I do feel that Gracie has a stronger presence and generally more mature look out there than the younger phenoms like Lipnitskaia, Li, and even Tukt. Yes, her artistry and musical interpretation definitely need work, but what I like is that Gracie keeps your attention. She has charisma, and that is important. You could argue that Lipnitskaia and Li both have more lovely individual positions than Gracie. But their skating lacks amplitude, and fire, and Gracie has some of that.

I agree and disagree. :)

I agree that it's better that Gracie waited to make the jump to seniors until she was ready, but the truth of the matter is prior to the 2011-2012 season, she wasn't a factor. She competed at one event on the JGP before going to junior worlds; everyone else competed at least one full season. It took Gracie longer to get her skating under control but I do think it's good that her technique is solid (except the flip) and that she won't/shouldn't have to take a season or two to figure out her technique and retrain her jumps which is something a lot of the others will have/need to do.

I agree Gracie has a more mature look on the ice but physically she's bigger than a number of her peers so her skating does come across bigger. I also agree that Gracie has amplitude and power when she skates. Her speed is good and her power is excellent which means she leaves a bigger impression on the ice relative to her competitors. I think Li has nice speed and ice coverage and she has very pretty jumps that carry a lot of speed as well. Unfortunately, next to Gracie she doesn't look as fast or powerful b/c she's smaller.

Where I disagree (and, of course, it's my subjective opinion) is on Gracie's charisma and ability to hold my attention. I think she has charisma but it only comes out in spurts during her time on the ice...it's not consistent during her performances. Gracie spends the majority of her performances in her head. She shows personality during her footwork and at the end, but nearly everything b/w the other elements is blank b/c she's thinking her way through her program. I can almost see the cogs moving in her head when she skates.

For that reason, she often bores me when I watch her. Jumps are wonderful but if you calculate the amount of time it takes to do the jumps, we're left with a lot of in-between moments that need to be filled and, to me, this is where Gracie frequently drops the ball.

As I said I realize it is going to take Gracie some time for her non-technical talents to match her technical talents. The lucky thing for her is her technical talents will carry her in the sport while we wait on everything else to catch up...assuming it will. But even if it doesn't I'm sure once the Big Three make their exit Gracie will be on the podium every time as long as she can land her jumps. I want to see her improve her presentation/interpretation/connection to the music/etc. but I doubt a lack of those things will stop her from winning post-Sochi.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I agree and disagree. :)

I agree that it's better that Gracie waited to make the jump to seniors until she was ready, but the truth of the matter is prior to the 2011-2012 season, she wasn't a factor. She competed at one event on the JGP before going to junior worlds; everyone else competed at least one full season. It took Gracie longer to get her skating under control but I do think it's good that her technique is solid (except the flip) and that she won't/shouldn't have to take a season or two to figure out her technique and retrain her jumps which is something a lot of the others will have/need to do.

You mean from when she started skating until she became a factor, as you say? Or do you mean in her transition to seniors?

I mean, to go from not making Nationals at the junior levelto the top six in the world within two years is pretty notable. I think it speaks to her ability, as mskater93 noted a few posts back, her ability to learn from her struggles and mistakes.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I went back to my notes when I saw Gracie live

"good flip-toe combo, looks like lip"
"good lutz, not as high/far as expected"
"best 2A of the girls"
"good speed throughout"
"a bit sloppy, someone to watch out for in the future"

My impressions of her haven't changed. I think she's a good jumper. Not particularly impressive about any jumps, but they are all good. Basically, an American Miki Ando.

You know what, she's like Miki, very unpolished.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
OMG, that is the point. She was clean, and she got 60.82. That means she had trouble breaking 60 in the SP. Do you have to be super precise to make a point?

Gracie URed the 3T, edge violated her flip on her first WC and still scored less than 2 points from Caro.

How can you make such a statement that Caro was even more generously scored when she barely broke 60 in her THIRD season as a senior?

FWIW, Gracie's non-jump elements were 3.79 points higher than Caro's due to the fact that Caro got low levels on them (looking strictly at spins and steps since spiral is no longer in the SP). That would negate the 2.5 points in BV + some -GOE that she lost due to the UR 3T + the edge call.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
You mean from when she started skating until she became a factor, as you say? Or do you mean in her transition to seniors?

I mean, to go from not making Nationals at the junior levelto the top six in the world within two years is pretty notable. I think it speaks to her ability, as mskater93 noted a few posts back, her ability to learn from her struggles and mistakes.

No, from when she started skating to where she is now. Her transition into seniors was actually very quick. She placed 4th at the novice level one year, missed a trip nationals the next, won junior nationals a year later and is now the national silver medalist. What I meant by that is, comparing her to someone like Julia who has medaled at junior worlds twice and is a senior level skater at 14 years old, it took Gracie longer to emerge on the scene. Once she did she rocketed through the ranks...

It just took her longer age wise than it does most of the "phenoms" we see now. It's not a bad thing...just different.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
I do not think that she has no talent in artistry.. she is still a new senior.. I believe if she get more consistency and becomes stable, she would get her style in presentation.
it's another problem with artistry... but when i see her skate, I feel that she has something that attracts attentions.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
That is to say, like two-time World Champion Miki Ando. :)

Miki is proof that landing your jumps and having a strong federation can put you at the top of the podium. I ain't even mad at her...
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
And I've said that she has the most potential of the US girls since Kwan. She has good and great jumps. She has good speed, she's unpolished and sloppy (and those can be fixed)
I said she could have gone the Joannie Rochette route, but now that I thought about Miki, I see her doing the Miki route.

Miki was a jumping phenom when she started.
Gracie is not the kind of jumper Miki was, but I think she's 90% as good. Both had/has lip problem, so hopefully Gracie can fix her lip without making it unstable. I see her as multiple W medalist, and potential W champion if given the right programs.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Miki is proof that landing your jumps and having a strong federation can put you at the top of the podium. I ain't even mad at her...

Me either. But even Miki managed to develop some decent artistry by the end of her career. I actually thought her Grieg FS and especially the Mission SP she had during the '10-11 season were quite lovely and she showed she could be artistic. Gracie is a bit unrefined for now but that's part of what makes her exciting. For me, another similarity she has to Miki is vulnerability, at times both Miki and Gracie have seemed very vulnerable despite the display of power they put out on the ice, to me it's sort of appealing, makes them come off as more warm, like-able, and human compared to some other skaters who almost seem cold and/or robotic at times (Yuna and Julia for me).
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I would expect Hannah to skate to something more "mature" even if this would be a good fit for her. Something about Disney scores turns off a lot fo skaters trying to be "serious"

As oppose to skating "life is beautiful" without knowing what the hell is the piece about?

Skating to appropriate pieces for your age is always appropriate.

Frankly, pretending to be a writhing you_know_what (hello, Sex and the City TWO because ONE wasn't ho enough) doesn't make the program any more "mature" than it is.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
OMG, that is the point. She was clean, and she got 60.82. That means she had trouble breaking 60 in the SP. Do you have to be super precise to make a point?

Gracie URed the 3T, edge violated her flip on her first WC and still scored less than 2 points from Caro.

Err... I think precision helps when you dismiss people's statements who disagree with you as "ridiculous". She didn't struggle at all to top 60 when she was clean; no trouble at all <> "so much trouble".

Caro fell and still finished 8 points ahead of Gracie in the SP, and 5+ points ahead of her in the LP. I realize you don't like Gracie but as a fan it's frustrating to see her being attacked with completely wrong information. Gracie does not get anywhere near the marks that Carolina does at this point, nor should she. But she isn't grossly overscored either; her PCS may be a bit generous but it seems to be only when she delivers on her very difficult technical content.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Unless Alissa returns to her 2011 form by 2014 Nationals, it'll be nigh on impossible for her to beat a healthy Ashley, who's slowly been inching up on PCS and may finally get a solid 3-3 (which she will most definitely need if she wants to contend for an Olympic medal).

But can a mostly clean, semi-healthy Alissa beat Gracie at full strength?

Absolutely not. Gold is way too strongly technically and the USFSA loves her and she will get very kind PCS. She would have to mess up both programs to finish below anyone not named Ashley. Alissa is definitely in a battle for that 3rd spot and that is the most she can realistically hope for her at this point, and she is going to have to do almost everything right and skate lights out at Nationals to make that happen (and still maybe need some help, especialy from the USFSA pet despite achieving nothing in the sport Zawadzki).
 
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