People said Gracie is quite wooden. I suppose that helps with line.
What more expression? She has exactly one expression the entire time.
Anyway, don't see any of that as better.
State of American Ladies: 2013-14 Season
- Thread starter Reginald
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People said Gracie is quite wooden. I suppose that helps with line.
What more expression? She has exactly one expression the entire time.
Anyway, don't see any of that as better.
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- May 19, 2011
Agreed.
Gracie is as stiff as a wooden plank but she's a lot more controlled than Courtney. I think Courtney has improved in the last two years but she's still very unrefined and in need of polish. Both skate with a lot of speed and have explosive jumps. Both need a lot of work on things like interpretation, expression, musical connection, etc. IMO, they are pretty much on equal footing.
The only difference is Gracie had better timing than Courtney. Courtney injured herself and basically lost a year of competing. I'm thinking if she hadn't missed her debut at senior nationals year before last, she and Gracie would have debuted on the senior level at the same time last year. Gracie has a year of senior international experience under her belt which puts her above Courtney at this point. However, if Courtney gets a GP and skates the way she skated at Glacier Falls, I think she could put a massive amount of pressure on both Gracie and Ashley to deliver at nationals.
Everyone is assuming gold and silver will go to some combination of Ashley and Gracie but Courtney has nothing to lose and much less pressure riding on her shoulders. I wouldn't be shocked if she went to nationals and shocked everyone by stealing one of those top spots.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I think Gracie benefitted from her fine season two years ago, when she was doing several clean programs as a junior. The USFSA was eager to get her out there last year since she can actually compete with the world's best on difficulty, and she did have a few good programs last season. For Courtney to get the same marks she is going to have to deliver more clean programs to build some momentum with the judges and get her name out there. She is a viable contender for that 3rd spot, and maybe the favorite if Mirai and Agnes don't have good GP seasons.
International judges love Gracie Gold and give her good PCS scores, even when she doesn't skate perfectly. Gracie won silver at JW 2012, while Courtney finished 5th at JW 2013 (behind Cesario). Gracie might not be the most expressive skater, but she does pace herself better than Courtney and at least pays some attention to the music. Evita is a score with many poignant moments, but Courtney took notice of none of them---she could have been skating to The Flintstones!
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- Sep 14, 2008
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Having one expression is better than no expression. Regardless, Gracie DOES project more and has more appealing looking movements. Just compare the opening choreography of Gracie's SP last season to Courtney's.
Brace yourselves for the most unpopular, polarizing opinion on this board...are you ready?.............Good! 
...........
"Artistry" is so overrated!! Different styles suit different skaters. IMO of course. I'm sick of skaters trying to emulate MK, and especially fans suggesting that skaters do so.
Ok, I said it. Proceed to flame me...
...........
"Artistry" is so overrated!! Different styles suit different skaters. IMO of course. I'm sick of skaters trying to emulate MK, and especially fans suggesting that skaters do so.
Ok, I said it. Proceed to flame me...
Ugh. It frustrates me (somewhat) and makes me hopeful (more so - because both ladies are so young still) but they BOTH have a LOT they can do. Probably it's the sport, the scoring system, the coaching habits, the ... EVERYTHING ... but COME ON! These young ladies ALL need ... ACTING LESSONS ... MIME COACHING ... a heck of a lot of work with dance coaches involving their arms, necks, backs, faces, ....
... that would take all these MAGNIFICANT athletic feats (triple triple triple kazaaaaam!) to the level of WOW ... that was a PERFORMANCE, that was MEMORABLE ... that was NOT ... Gymnastics in Ice.
AAAARGH.
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- Sep 14, 2008
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Style is simply the form of artistry. Also lets not confuse a LACK of style as "having a different style". I'm not sure where this line of discussion came from with regards to the thread, though.
Brace yourselves for the most unpopular, polarizing opinion on this board...are you ready?.............Good!
...........
"Artistry" is so overrated!! Different styles suit different skaters. IMO of course. I'm sick of skaters trying to emulate MK, and especially fans suggesting that skaters do so.
Ok, I said it. Proceed to flame me...
R.D. I have to ask because I've wondered from time to time and am curious: what do you like best about figure skating? I know you dislike getting excited about one skater or another but sometimes that makes it hard to tell what you like most about the sport, aside from the competitive aspect. Despite your protestations, I can't help but suspect that there must be one style you prefer to another!!!!
Yes, I know. Most commonly I see the former in child skaters (or lower-ranked World skaters) who are still learning moves and heading up the ranks.
Probably not the answer you are looking for but I want the skater to stay true to herself - that is, to play to her strengths. For instance I am fine with Czisny doing slow, lyrical pieces because that's her strength. But I would NOT want to see, say, Wagner skating to that kind of piece because her style (to me) is more athletic. She would need something more dramatic.
So, in short, which style I prefer depends on the skater performing.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
It is an interesting perspective, but for me it comes down to whether the program works or not, not over any particular style or even choice of music. Carmen has been done over and over again, but V&M's version left me breathless and wanting for more; but not more of the same thing, but see what else they can come up with that is different than before. I would hardly consider Carmen as their style? While the more obvious choices like Swan Lake with Mao the most balletic skater may looks great on paper, but the program didn't work for me as a whole in its structure, choreography and interpretation, the footstep sequence is decent however.
But I tend to give a pass to the young skaters (Anyone under 18), simply because the way the COP is structured prioritize point scoring rather than award any particular unique style or interpretation. It means stick to something safe, classical, non offensive, generic like a war horse, and 'skating as yourself', you'd be fine. Under such competitive environment and pressure, true artistry is a luxury not a necessity. However, arguably it is precisely because of this, the sport is loosing its audience and raison d'etre.
I'd argue 'stay to yourself' is hardly the right way to go when most of these kids don't even yet know who they are yet. What is their strength, what their 'style' is with out the usual growing pain process of learning through mimicking, processing, developing, experimenting and find their voice by knowing and learning the alternatives. On the other hand, they may get lucky to be able to afford a 'name' choreographer and utilize their reputation and seal of approval. However this does not always work, take Mirai for instances and the package her team came up with to mould her into something she is obviously not, that had her chronic UR problems has lost her appeal some what. Not everyone is born with gifted musicality or interpretation. It is too much to expect in an athlete. Take Patrick Chan for instances, he is said to have taken number of music lessons and even ballet when he is younger, yet I'd say musicality doesn't really show up on his performance until these last 2 years when he can afford to really work on his interpretation and dance form. and he has come up with some great work, except arguably his consistency suffered. Was he skating as himself previously, or more recently?
He like Gracie and many others obviously focus on scoring as oppose to canvassing the full range emotions their chosen music intends. It is what wins competition these days. So in that sense, artistry is certainly over rated under the COP. It is so much effort for so little rewards. It is no accident some of the most artistic performer are maturer in age. Or that if you focus too much on your artistry, the execution of your tech goods suffers, costly points are lost etc.
But I tend to give a pass to the young skaters (Anyone under 18), simply because the way the COP is structured prioritize point scoring rather than award any particular unique style or interpretation. It means stick to something safe, classical, non offensive, generic like a war horse, and 'skating as yourself', you'd be fine. Under such competitive environment and pressure, true artistry is a luxury not a necessity. However, arguably it is precisely because of this, the sport is loosing its audience and raison d'etre.
I'd argue 'stay to yourself' is hardly the right way to go when most of these kids don't even yet know who they are yet. What is their strength, what their 'style' is with out the usual growing pain process of learning through mimicking, processing, developing, experimenting and find their voice by knowing and learning the alternatives. On the other hand, they may get lucky to be able to afford a 'name' choreographer and utilize their reputation and seal of approval. However this does not always work, take Mirai for instances and the package her team came up with to mould her into something she is obviously not, that had her chronic UR problems has lost her appeal some what. Not everyone is born with gifted musicality or interpretation. It is too much to expect in an athlete. Take Patrick Chan for instances, he is said to have taken number of music lessons and even ballet when he is younger, yet I'd say musicality doesn't really show up on his performance until these last 2 years when he can afford to really work on his interpretation and dance form. and he has come up with some great work, except arguably his consistency suffered. Was he skating as himself previously, or more recently?
He like Gracie and many others obviously focus on scoring as oppose to canvassing the full range emotions their chosen music intends. It is what wins competition these days. So in that sense, artistry is certainly over rated under the COP. It is so much effort for so little rewards. It is no accident some of the most artistic performer are maturer in age. Or that if you focus too much on your artistry, the execution of your tech goods suffers, costly points are lost etc.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Gracie has a pasted on smile the whole time, but that comes across as better and less frantic than Courtney zooming around aimlessly because she is at least projecting outward and looks happy. Plus I think Gracie being taller with a longer, leaner build than Courtney makes her lines look better (she also keeps her legs straight which Courtney does not) and helps her have a stronger, more commanding presence on the ice. Also I feel like Courtney looks down at the ice a lot, and Gracie, stiff and wooden though she may be, seems to be an extroverted personality who really enjoys being in the spotlight which helps with the presentation aspect as well.
I agree! Although it's great when the skaters can push themselves in terms of experimenting but at the same time I do love it when they find who they are and carve out their own style. I think it was easier under COP. The programs all could look quiet different from each other. Think Oskana vs. Nancy or Michelle vs. Lu. vs. Tara.
I don't think Gracie's jumps have better flowout. Actually, less flow to me. She is quite stiff on her landings, like she was braking on landing.
Gracie pays a bit more attention to the music, I agree. The problem is she just doesn't get the music.
Courtney totally disregards the music.
Gracie pays a bit more attention to the music, I agree. The problem is she just doesn't get the music.
Courtney totally disregards the music.
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2011
What'dya know, we agree about something! I actually think this is really insightful- I wouldn't have thought to put it that way but so true.
I agree with R.D. The sport is not helped by deeming only slow, serious and somber programs to be "artistic" or "sophisticated" enough to merit high scores. Skaters should be allowed to skate their own age and not pretend to be middle aged divas. Many, many teen girls are very cutesy--I'm a teacher at a girls' school, I see it every day (well, at least I did, and will again in Sept.) Mirai was criticized for doing a "cute" Carmen, came back the next year with a more serious piece, and never skated really well again. I can see the same thing happening to Gracie (who skates young) and Agnes (who skates tough and sexy).
