Which 2 Russian Ladies will make the Olympic Team? | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Which 2 Russian Ladies will make the Olympic Team?

yuki

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
I know that because of the ur scoring rules Mao did get a lot of partial credits for her "triples" so it is all to illustrate how one skater can do 9 triples and another can do 4 and the person with 4 wins If they have the pcs and spin and step bv and goe. So If radionova or someone does 9 or 10 triples but has a hand down are aren't perfect and amazing it won't matter-like It didn't matter with Julia vs Mao.

Mao's GOE for her non-jump elements (spins+steps) was 4.9 and Julia's was 4.37, so it was not a big difference. The gap in total GOE (Julia 2.38 vs. Mao 4.26) comes mostly from the fact that Julia had low GOE on jumps, -1.99 (she got -2.4 on her first 2 jumps passes alone and small positive GOE on the rest of them).
 

yuki

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Mao had many issues, but as mentioned, she did get 70% credit for her URs. Her SP wasn't "bad" points-wise... she still did a 2A, 3L, 3F<-2L, which isn't anything to shake a stick at, but can still score high with her PCS (Kostner had 3-3 fall, 3L, 2A, and was 2nd after the Worlds SP, so it's not like a top skater with an error will be severely penalized).

Mao's PCS was (slightly) lower than her TES in the 2012 COC SP, and her TES wasn't exactly great to begin with (and it shouldn't have been). Mao may have been generously scored at some competitions in her career (NHK 2012 comes to mind), but COC last season really wasn't one of them.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Mao had many issues, but as mentioned, she did get 70% credit for her URs. Her SP wasn't "bad" points-wise... she still did a 2A, 3L, 3F<-2L, which isn't anything to shake a stick at, but can still score high with her PCS (Kostner had 3-3 fall, 3L, 2A, and was 2nd after the Worlds SP, so it's not like a top skater with an error will be severely penalized).

As mentioned, FS-wise, she got higher GOE on her elements, proportionally, compared to Julia and thus their TES gap was only like 3 points (which was easily mitigated by her PCS gap). However, Julia was less than 4 points behind Mao overall so, had she landed her 2A-3T cleanly and done the 3rd jump in that combo, mathematically she would have won (even with the UR lutz). Yes, it's true that Lipnitskaia had to do a lot more to potentially win, and Asada could afford a lot more errors before potentially losing, but it wasn't out of the realm of possibility.

But Mao did win. No matter what flaws there were in lipnitskaia's skate it will always be 9 triples vs 4 triples.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Mao's GOE for her non-jump elements (spins+steps) was 4.9 and Julia's was 4.37, so it was not a big difference. The gap in total GOE (Julia 2.38 vs. Mao 4.26) comes mostly from the fact that Julia had low GOE on jumps, -1.99 (she got -2.4 on her first 2 jumps passes alone and small positive GOE on the rest of them).

Yes I know all this and why I have posted that any jumps done by someone against Mao must be perfect and amazing on all levels but it still may be difficult to beat kostner or Mao As Mao showed when she best Julia very easily doing 4 triples to julias 9 triples. If Mao did 5 or 6 then it would had been even less competitive.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
But Mao did win. No matter what flaws there were in lipnitskaia's skate it will always be 9 triples vs 4 triples.

That's fine. That was the result. And you could always speculate what could have happened if so-and-so did this better or their opponent did this worse. All I'm saying (and others are saying) is that for the same reason you're saying Julia can't beat Mao because of the CoC results, had Julia done a little better and beaten Mao you would have a totally different story. The difference between them was less than a 3T, and Julia made mistakes. Hence, if Mao makes the same mistakes and Julia skates better, logic would suggest she would beat Mao -- especially when we've seen Julia skate better. It's not something out of the realm of reason, like if a 20th place skater at Worlds a bit of a better skate, she would beat Yu Na or Carolina.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
But Mao in 2006 and now Liza/Julia are in completely different condition as a youngster. when young Mao won veterans, Gap of PCS between youngster and veterans was not huge like now.
- when young Mao beat Irina, In 2005 GPF (that season was her first senior debut season), her SP PCS(28) was only 2 point lower than Irina(30), her FS PCS(29) was only 1 point lower than Irina(30).
 And her TES was 11points ahead of Irina, In total, she got 8 point ahead of Irina and won in that event. 

Now the gap is more than 10 points. So even if young won about 10 points in TES, they could not beat veterans because of PCS. In 05-06 season, it was such a thing can not happen.

Ok, let me break it down.

The gap between Mao's PCS and Irina's PCS was appropriate. Mao was fast, had better programs than Irina. Skated to the music. Irina skated to horsecraps, had questionable skill, sloppy, basically one of the worst top skaters when it come to programs. Basically a Russian. Basically what the other Russian girls will grow up to be.

Gap between Mao's PCS and Julia's PCS should be 20 instead of 10. Mao had one of the best programs, and Julia had one of the worst. And she skated through the music, had terrible skill, terrible projection, no ice coverage. Slower. IN should be 2 or 3. PE should be 3. Basically way overscored for what she did.

So no, the gap did not increase between veterans and young skaters. Just that veterans in 2006 weren't good with PCS compare to veterans in 2013 now. Veterans in 2013 actually worked on their SS, their programs, their overall package.

I suggest you look at PCS again and try to understand what they mean. PCS isn't a place holder like in 6.0 anymore. Irina in this day and age would never get the kind of PCS that the top 3 are getting, veteran or no veteran.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
That's fine. That was the result. And you could always speculate what could have happened if so-and-so did this better or their opponent did this worse. All I'm saying (and others are saying) is that for the same reason you're saying Julia can't beat Mao because of the CoC results, had Julia done a little better and beaten Mao you would have a totally different story. The difference between them was less than a 3T, and Julia made mistakes. Hence, if Mao makes the same mistakes and Julia skates better, logic would suggest she would beat Mao -- especially when we've seen Julia skate better. It's not something out of the realm of reason, like if a 20th place skater at Worlds a bit of a better skate, she would beat Yu Na or Carolina.

I think it is very highly unlikely that mao will ever make the mistakes she made at COC ever again! 4 triples? LOL. Doubtful. It's also doubtful that another skater can actually do much more than Julia did as she was very close to maxing out jump difficulty without going to 3A. You just aren't likely to see a 4 triple performance that often. And if you do you know it can easily win if done by the right person.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Ok, let me break it down.

The gap between Mao's PCS and Irina's PCS was appropriate. Mao was fast, had better programs than Irina. Skated to the music. Irina skated to horsecraps, had questionable skill, sloppy, basically one of the worst top skaters when it come to programs. Basically a Russian. Basically what the other Russian girls will grow up to be.

Gap between Mao's PCS and Julia's PCS should be 20 instead of 10. Mao had one of the best programs, and Julia had one of the worst. And she skated through the music, had terrible skill, terrible projection, no ice coverage. Slower. IN should be 2 or 3. PE should be 3. Basically way overscored for what she did.

So no, the gap did not increase between veterans and young skaters. Just that veterans in 2006 weren't good with PCS compare to veterans in 2013 now. Veterans in 2013 actually worked on their SS, their programs, their overall package.

I suggest you look at PCS again and try to understand what they mean. PCS isn't a place holder like in 6.0 anymore. Irina in this day and age would never get the kind of PCS that the top 3 are getting, veteran or no veteran.

I had not mentioned who's PCS is wrong or unfair. In silverlake's post, she said 2006 mao as "example for Youngster can win old top skaters".
So I said Elena/Julia have different condition, they will more difficult to win old top skaters than Mao in 2006.

Yes, yes, 2006 Mao was way, way better artistic and elegant skater than 2006 Irina. but my post's subject was not about that. I was talking about the judges' tedency is different between the old days and now. what I had claimed was, In the old days, Gap of pcs between young who have top technical contents and old top skaters was not so big like now. And because silverlake mentioned only elena/julia, So i did said only their name, but this situation applies to all youngsters. and among youngsters, I think the best example would be Li Zijun, she had have often cleaner programs and she missed the podium by a small margin several times when TES rank was very high, but because of PCS. her PCS is almost 10 points behind veterans. but I don't think her artistry, presentation is way low, low level than olds That Much.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I had not mentioned who's PCS is wrong or unfair. In silverlake's post, she said 2006 mao as "example for Youngster can win old top skaters".
So I said Elena/Julia have different condition, they will more difficult to win old top skaters than Mao in 2006.

Yes, yes, 2006 Mao was way, way better artistic and elegant skater than 2006 Irina. but my post's subject was not about that. I was talking about the judges' tedency is different between the old days and now. what I had claimed was, In the old days, Gap of pcs between young who have top technical contents and old top skaters was not so big like now. And because silverlake mentioned only elena/julia, So i did said only their name, but this situation applies to all youngsters. and among youngsters, I think the best example would be Li Zijun, she had have often cleaner programs and she missed the podium by a small margin several times when TES rank was very high, but because of PCS. her PCS is almost 10 points behind veterans. but I don't think her artistry, presentation is way low, low level than olds That Much.

Your post has a certain implication. But anyway, 2006 Mao is a prodigy, 2006 Irina is a downhill mess. 2013 Julia is a freaking mess, 2013 Mao is an improving Mao with great programs. So not the same at all, and shouldn't be used as example to show youngsters can win.
If Elena/Julia come out with better programs than Mao and Carolina (like Mao's programs were better than Irina in 2006) and with better skating skill than the old veterans, then their PCS wouldn't be 10 points back.

As for Li Zijun, this girl is very cute. Don't confuse cute with skating skill. Her skating skill is weak. Actually, she scored really well for what she did. Compare to Kostner's SS, which only barely cracked 9, Zijun's SS should be no more than 6. That alone is almost 4.7 points difference in the LP.

As for the CH, IN, not even close. Their programs are masterpiece, and Zijun's programs are forgettable. Cute, but nothing amazing about it. I wouldn't say her programs are even good.

So yes, she should be that many points behind. It's not like she went out with better programs than Mao and Carolina and somehow still managed to score 12 points behind them. This is not the same situation as 2006 at all. I don't care if Julia did 90 triples, she should never come close to any of Mao, Yuna, Carolina.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Your post has a certain implication. But anyway, 2006 Mao is a prodigy, 2006 Irina is a downhill mess. 2013 Julia is a freaking mess, 2013 Mao is an improving Mao with great programs. So not the same at all, and shouldn't be used as example to show youngsters can win.
If Elena/Julia come out with better programs than Mao and Carolina (like Mao's programs were better than Irina in 2006) and with better skating skill than the old veterans, then their PCS wouldn't be 10 points back.

As for Li Zijun, this girl is very cute. Don't confuse cute with skating skill. Her skating skill is weak. Actually, she scored really well for what she did. Compare to Kostner's SS, which only barely cracked 9, Zijun's SS should be no more than 6. That alone is almost 4.7 points difference in the LP.

As for the CH, IN, not even close. Their programs are masterpiece, and Zijun's programs are forgettable. Cute, but nothing amazing about it. I wouldn't say her programs are even good.

So yes, she should be that many points behind. It's not like she went out with better programs than Mao and Carolina and somehow still managed to score 12 points behind them. This is not the same situation as 2006 at all. I don't care if Julia did 90 triples, she should never come close to any of Mao, Yuna, Carolina.

like I have said in this thread a long time ago, I have never thought Elena or Julia can beat Top Three, and I had never interest in her skating. In young skaters, I am interested in only zijun, liza, gold.
And I'm not talking about esepcially some skaters, I was talking about recent overall old vs young skaters.

I think this arguement is from whether agree with recent judge's trend in PCS or not.
honestly, I don't agree with recent PCS rule. For example, Patrick Chan's multiple winnign by PCS despite a lot of mistakes, and The results of the several competitions...
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
I think this arguement is from whether agree with recent judge's trend in PCS or not.
honestly, I don't agree with recent PCS rule. For example, Patrick Chan's multiple winnign by PCS despite a lot of mistakes, and The results of the several competitions...

When Mao skated with multiple pops and falls she didn't come even close to podium (minus 2012 NHK trophy which was a mess). Her 2011 GP events showed that. When she skates like that, her PCS drop by a lot. Yes, Caro is getting love from the judges but she never won anything with the amount of mistakes Patrick did. Even her much disputed 2008 worlds silver didn't include a single fall from her. Not to mention Yuna, I can only remember a single competition she won with a subpar LP (but still a top notch SP). Take out the judging in 2012 NHK trophy, the results in ladies this season was pretty fair IMO
So what is the recent trend in PCS in ladies event you don't agree with? Again, 2012 NHK trophy aside
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
When Mao skated with multiple pops and falls she didn't come even close to podium (minus 2012 NHK trophy which was a mess). Her 2011 GP events showed that. When she skates like that, her PCS drop by a lot. Yes, Caro is getting love from the judges but she never won anything with the amount of mistakes Patrick did. Even her much disputed 2008 worlds silver didn't include a single fall from her. Not to mention Yuna, I can only remember a single competition she won with a subpar LP (but still a top notch SP). Take out the judging in 2012 NHK trophy, the results in ladies this season was pretty fair IMO
So what is the recent trend in PCS in ladies event you don't agree with? Again, 2012 NHK trophy aside

please read through my posts in this thread.
I have said "I'm not talking about esepcially some skaters, I was talking about recent overall old vs young competitive position "
In this thread, I have been avoid to criticize only Mao and Caro. I have not particularly complaint about specific skater, I just dont like this recent trend that judges made. Not ONLY apply to Mao, or Caro, apply to almost all old top rankers like Wagner, Korpi, and etc...

In this season, i have seen old top ranked skaters who have low bv and have more mistakes are in higher ranking than youngsters who have good competitive.
In my opinion, gap of pcs between youngsters and old top ranker is too big when compare with past - if judges had judgement in same standard with now, I think young yuna and young mao would not have won their several titles...
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
In this season, i have seen old top ranked skaters who have low bv and have more mistakes are in higher ranking than youngsters who have good competitive.

It's true the young skaters go for more difficult jumps but neither of them had a very good or a clean competition overall and still placed lower than the older skaters. Liza won 2 GP last season because she skated cleans SP and LP with high difficulty and beat the veterans. This season they weren't that impressive. Maybe there is a reason the "old top ranked skaters" with a lower base value get so high GOE: because the do what they can with a very good quality.
Young Yuna and young Mao were better skaters than the current 16 year old skaters, both technically and presentation wise. How could anyone not give huge PCS to Yuna's Tango and 2007 worlds, for example? What 16 year old is currently coming close to what 16 year old 16 year old Yuna and Mao produced on the ice? I have nothing against the younger skaters, they are exciting and all and some of them will be champions one day. I actually like many of them and cheer for them. But they are not going to medal while the top skaters skate well because they are not there yet. Not next season anyway, I believe.
Give me one example (this season) when one young skater was impressive both technically and PCS wise and was underscored compared to a veteran. Kiira won Rostelecom Cup with 3-3 combos, a 3Lz, 5 clean jumps in the Lp. Gracie faltered a bit, that's why she lost to her. Ashley won her 2 GP events with very impressive, clean skates with 6 triples in the LP. Caro won Europeans because Liza had a crappy SP and Adelina had a crappy LP basically. Take Adelina's SP and Liza's LP and that would beat Caro, which is basically my point: so far, the 16 year olds are also inconsistent and faild to have back to back clean skates in one competition. I don't think this is a trend as you said it. It's just that this season, top skaters ("old skaters") had amazing programs. Why should they not be rewarded for it? Who's fault is it the young skaters basically have crap programs?(with the exception of Osmond and Sotnikova's SPs, which were scored very very well when skated clean). The gap of PCS is fair IMO. That's how good Mao, Caro and Yuna are. The gap will be closed when the youngsters will skate decent programs.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Liza won 2 gps without winning an lp and she was third in one fs of a gp she won the title of!!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Take out the judging in 2012 NHK trophy, the results in ladies this season was pretty fair IMO... So what is the recent trend in PCS in ladies event you don't agree with? Again, 2012 NHK trophy aside

The one that comes to mind particularly is Kostner in the SP at Worlds, when she fell. Her program was still great otherwise, but to get a personal best PCS score when you make such an error and somehow being in 2nd (when others have skated clean) is ridiculous. And scoring 70+ PCS in her FS when she popped a jump and fell at the very end missing the music was a bit generous too, IMO (12.5 points higher than Li, who was clean). I also thought Wagner scored rather high (63 points PCS) for her FS, especially considering her disruptive fall in her step sequence, which is where a lot of PCS points are amassed.
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
The one that comes to mind particularly is Kostner in the SP at Worlds, when she fell. Her program was still great otherwise, but to get a personal best PCS score when you make such an error and somehow being in 2nd (when others have skated clean) is ridiculous. And scoring 70+ PCS in her FS when she popped a jump and fell at the very end missing the music was a bit generous too, IMO (12.5 points higher than Li, who was clean). I also thought Wagner scored rather high (63 points PCS) for her FS, especially considering her disruptive fall in her step sequence, which is where a lot of PCS points are amassed.

Yes, Caro's scores were too high, especially in the SP. But overall I think she deserved the silver. Mao also got a score too high in the SP, Kanako unfortunately had many Ured issues and the rest of the ladies had their own problems, even Zijun had a bad SP which made it impossible for her to make the podium, no matter how good her LP was. At worlds all the scores were inflated, especially on PCS. But the results are pretty fair, which is the most important thing. I think PCS are a problem then they affect the end result and the right skater doesn't win (like in NHK trophy) but if the results are ok, I am also ok with it
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
The one that comes to mind particularly is Kostner in the SP at Worlds, when she fell. Her program was still great otherwise, but to get a personal best PCS score when you make such an error and somehow being in 2nd (when others have skated clean) is ridiculous. And scoring 70+ PCS in her FS when she popped a jump and fell at the very end missing the music was a bit generous too, IMO (12.5 points higher than Li, who was clean). I also thought Wagner scored rather high (63 points PCS) for her FS, especially considering her disruptive fall in her step sequence, which is where a lot of PCS points are amassed.

Her FS score was fine. There was overall score inflation in that night. And Whatever her score was, she was deserved silver medal.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Young Yuna and young Mao were better skaters than the current 16 year old skaters, both technically and presentation wise. How could anyone not give huge PCS to Yuna's Tango and 2007 worlds, for example? What 16 year old is currently coming close to what 16 year old 16 year old Yuna and Mao produced on the ice? I have nothing against the younger skaters, they are exciting and all and some of them will be champions one day. I actually like many of them and cheer for them. But they are not going to medal while the top skaters skate well because they are not there yet. Not next season anyway, I believe.
I admit, and agree that now current 16 year old skaters are nowhere near to 16 year old yuna/ mao. I had no purpose to disparage young Yuna and young Mao.

Give me one example (this season) when one young skater was impressive both technically and PCS wise and was underscored compared to a veteran.
Kiira won Rostelecom Cup with 3-3 combos, a 3Lz, 5 clean jumps in the Lp. Gracie faltered a bit, that's why she lost to her. Ashley won her 2 GP events with very impressive, clean skates with 6 triples in the LP. Caro won Europeans because Liza had a crappy SP and Adelina had a crappy LP basically. Take Adelina's SP and Liza's LP and that would beat Caro, which is basically my point: so far, the 16 year olds are also inconsistent and faild to have back to back clean skates in one competition. I don't think this is a trend as you said it. It's just that this season, top skaters ("old skaters") had amazing programs. Why should they not be rewarded for it? Who's fault is it the young skaters basically have crap programs?(with the exception of Osmond and Sotnikova's SPs, which were scored very very well when skated clean). The gap of PCS is fair IMO. That's how good Mao, Caro and Yuna are. The gap will be closed when the youngsters will skate decent programs.
I just hoped that PCS gap between youngsters and veterans would be reduced a little... Of course, old top skaters like Yuna and Mao and Caro's skate/program is much, much better.
but anyway figure skating is sports... i think more than 10 point difference in PCS is too big
 
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