Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

These ideas have occurred to me as well. It does sometimes seem that women are at a disadvantage with the new rules. That's something I don't like, and I especially worry that the only female skaters who might have an advantage are the youngest girls. I am always uneasy during eras when children have the edge over older skaters, because, with few exceptions (fifteen-year-old Michelle Kwan or Mao Asada, for instance), girls can't plumb the depths of the music.

Olympia said:

These ideas have occurred to me as well. It does sometimes seem that women are at a disadvantage with the new rules. That's something I don't like, and I especially worry that the only female skaters who might have an advantage are the youngest girls. I am always uneasy during eras when children have the edge over older skaters, because, with few exceptions (fifteen-year-old Michelle Kwan or Mao Asada, for instance), girls can't plumb the depths of the music.

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I think that will change when people start comparing Gracie's trajectory (coming on to the scene a few years after her peers) to those who peaked as juniors (doing 3/3's at 14 then losing most of their jumps because they never learned to jump big). Gracie will win multiple national titles and will be competitive for the world podium as soon as next year. She wasn't doing 3/3's with sloppy technique as a pre-teen, and as a result her jump technique has transitioned well into the senior ranks and she get GOE on par with the best in the world for her jumps. I think Gracie, even with a few bobbles, is going to beat a juniorish skater like Elena R every time when they are judged side-by-side.

drivingmissdaisy said:

I think that will change when people start comparing Gracie's trajectory (coming on to the scene a few years after her peers) to those who peaked as juniors (doing 3/3's at 14 then losing most of their jumps because they never learned to jump big). Gracie will win multiple national titles and will be competitive for the world podium as soon as next year. She wasn't doing 3/3's with sloppy technique as a pre-teen, and as a result her jump technique has transitioned well into the senior ranks and she get GOE on par with the best in the world for her jumps. I think Gracie, even with a few bobbles, is going to beat a juniorish skater like Elena R every time when they are judged side-by-side.

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I share your hope for GG. Let's also hope she develops some basic ability to respond to the music she's skating to, and not act like a shy 15-year old auditioning for the school play. Her abilities are remarkably lopsided. Bad coaching. It's not GG's fault, but I do hope she quickly catches up to the calmness-cum-"artistry" of Yuna Kim, which shouldn't be that hard for a skater of GG's ability.

gkelly said:

Certainly step sequences have gotten more difficult. But for whatever reason I don't find women to do as well as men at marrying the blade-to-ice technique with thematic choreography -- in any judging system. Maybe because so many of them are so young.

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I think Kwan's footwork in 2003/2004/2005 was superb.

In general, though, I would say it's often not as "feminine" to attack your step sequences with the kind of aggression and energy that pulls in really big scores. Women have also had to focus on Spiral Sequences in the past, rather than just footwork. Hence, Men have been stronger in this area. It has been changing, though. Spiral Sequences are no longer in the Women's programs as required elements and I think at this point every competitor is completely aware of CoP and trains to score as many points as possible from every single element.

Remember Yuka Sato's footwork, especially as a pro? She was the first woman I ever noticed who could do just anything on the ice, to almost any music.

I think one aspect of the CoP that has brought about changes in women’s skating is that nowadays there isn’t any time or place for gliding skills. Maybe gliding doesn’t count as a skill, but sometimes it seems like skaters think they have to be constantly doing the jitterbug. Except when they are jumping – and even then, transitions in and out are more highly prized than flowing edges.

Here is a famous one-foot spiral sequence performed at a pro-am competition that lasts for 18 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ0reeUnAmE#t=2m25s

Boys can skate, too! Here Brian Boitano ends his program (also a world pro) with an 18 second spread eagle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-B5YrRaB8w#t=4m7s

Mathman said:

I think one aspect of the CoP that has brought about changes in women’s skating is that nowadays there isn’t any time or place for gliding skills. Maybe gliding doesn’t count as a skill, but sometimes it seems like skaters think they have to be constantly doing the jitterbug. Except when they are jumping – and even then, transitions in and out are more highly prized than flowing edges.

Here is a famous one-foot spiral sequence performed at a pro-am competition that lasts for 18 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ0reeUnAmE#t=2m25s

Boys can skate, too! Here Brian Boitano ends his program (also a world pro) with an 18 second spread eagle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-B5YrRaB8w#t=4m7s

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I think you're on to something about the gliding.

That spiral sequence of Michelle's is sublime. And then later on she does an outside/inside/outside/inside spreadeagle. My only feeling about CoP at a time like this is that I'm glad the French judge didn't goof everything up until 2002.

Mathman said:

I think one aspect of the CoP that has brought about changes in women’s skating is that nowadays there isn’t any time or place for gliding skills. Maybe gliding doesn’t count as a skill, but sometimes it seems like skaters think they have to be constantly doing the jitterbug. Except when they are jumping – and even then, transitions in and out are more highly prized than flowing edges.

Here is a famous one-foot spiral sequence performed at a pro-am competition that lasts for 18 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ0reeUnAmE#t=2m25s

Boys can skate, too! Here Brian Boitano ends his program (also a world pro) with an 18 second spread eagle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-B5YrRaB8w#t=4m7s

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doesnt make much sense to compare competitive ijs programs to pro programs and then complain ijs programs have less time for gliding than 6.0 competitive programs. Pro programs dont need to fit in seven or eight difficult jump passas regardless of scoring system.

Ijs wants transitions including gliding moves. Varity and quality are valued. Arakawa's ina bauer was iconic inder ijs.

Carolina Kostner receives top level PCS for her glide filled free skating programs.

gkelly said:

doesnt make much sense to compare competitive ijs programs to pro programs and then complain ijs programs have less time for gliding than 6.0 competitive programs. Pro programs dont need to fit in seven or eight difficult jump passas regardless of scoring system.

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I guess it is the kind of programs that we used to see in events like the Landover World Pros that I miss the most. They had the right blend of competitive athleticism and performance art.

Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0

What about Evan Lysacek? He dominated in 2009 and 2010, winning the World Championship, the Grand Prix Final, and the Olympic gold medal, under IJS.

He would have been just as dominant under 6.0 in the mid-nineties. :yes:

I would not say mid. Maybe early. In the mid you had eldredge who became wc but could not dominate.

Olympia said:

You know, one thing that made me saddest about CoP was that they started dinging Asada for everything. She is such a unique talent, and they boxed her in dreadfully... I wish the system had had more latitude for other kinds of skaters. I don't think underrotations are quite so dire as CoP seems to think, and the constant focus on them makes many if not most skaters (particularly ladies) limit themselves and hold back.

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Why? If a professional golfer hits the ball higher and farther than anyone has ever seen before, but they can't putt the ball very well, do the officials allow them to put to a bigger hole than everyone else just because they are an especially talented ball striker? If someone can't rotate a triple, then they should be downgraded. Otherwise, why would anyone ever do a triple when they could do 2 3/4 and get the same points?

I'm probably in the minority but I prefer CoP system and I'm even very new to figure skating. Except for PCS the standard is the same for everyone. You either go out there and nail it or you don't. As it turns out, in Ladies FS right now there is only one woman who can consistently go out there and deliver both technically and artistically over and over again. In the last 5 years, she happens to win nearly every time she's on the ice.

The problem is not the scoring. As someone new to figure skating, I hear how most of the old guard would like to see 6.0 return in order to regain some of the artistry. My response is ... why can't the skaters elevate their artistry within CoP? Usually the common response is that it's just a bunch of check marks, checking off boxes to get points. My response? No. There is one skater who is able to master CoP technically and give a 6.0 artistic performance at the very same time. Yuna does that, and that's why she wins over and over again. The very fact that she does that proves it's possible to skate at the highest technical and artistic levels within CoP. Therefore the answer is not to abandon CoP because it's too challenging for the other skaters, but the answer is for the other skaters to get better. And thinking "well maybe it's ok if they cheat their rotations a little" is not the mentality that will make them better. As a post 6.0 follower, that's the feeling I get about 6.0 that it wasn't challenging enough, allowed for too much leeway and cheating. Now the results speak for themselves, and perhaps it is telling that most people who follow figure skating don't like what the results are telling them. Maybe some introspection is needed.

While COP penalizes underrotations a lot, 6.0 harshly penalized two-foots. IIRC, you didn't even get credit for a jump if you two-footed it, and I consider a two-footed jump "almost" correct.

CoP is also quite lenient on falls. Under 6.0 a fall was a completely failed element and adversely affected the second mark, too.

I much prefer CoP but it could be tweaked. Mathman you give a good example. If a skater falls, the element should be a complete fail with deduction for falling.

I say this as casual FS fan. Falling ruins a performance. Under rotations and two foots should be deductions but are not as aesthetically disruptive as someone going splat all over the ice.

Ven said:

There is one skater who is able to master CoP technically and give a 6.0 artistic performance at the very same time. Yuna does that, and that's why she wins over and over again. The very fact that she does that proves it's possible to skate at the highest technical and artistic levels within CoP.

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I wish we had a sample of at least two before we make our judgment. This might only show that Yuna Kim is so amazing that she can do anything.

Again, i think the men tend to do better than ladies at combining technical content and thematic choreography. I thought so in6.0 days and i still find that to be the case.

Mathman said:

I wish we had a sample of at least two before we make our judgment.

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I just think the other skaters need to get better. In my opinion, CoP could be tweaked but it should remain the standard. To be blunt, I don't consider 6.0 FS a sport, but I do consider CoP figure skating a sport. With 6.0, it seems like it's just people making qualitative judgements on a skater's performance, and then assigning random made-up numbers to back up their bias who was better than who. Yuna could go out there and skate her 2013 World Championship Les Mis performance and there could be someone like skateluvr on the panel who could and would rate her below Kostner. Imagine if a hockey game was determined this way. Imagine if nobody kept the score, but after 3 periods you determined the winner based on how you qualitatively felt about each of the teams.

Figure skating on the other hand is part art and part sport. The judging system should allow for this and CoP does, even if CoP could be improved. CoP does a much better job with regard to technical score, and PCS is there for the art. If someone is capable of gaining a high score for one half of this equation but not the other, then that is a fault in their skating, not the system.

The other thing is that, again, for someone like me who is a marginal FS fan, I think the sport does a very, very poor job in selling its scoring system. When I watch a competition, the only thing I see is the score at the end, with no explanation of how or why that skater received said score. This does not make me wistfully dream of 6.0 so I could see the drama of judges disagreeing with each other like this is a political contest instead of a sport -- no -- this makes me wish the tv crew had time and effort to explain the scores when they are given. I think if the telecast displayed the total score and then displayed the entire scorecard like we can look up online, with a succinct but complete review of all the elements and GOEs and levels, the interest in figure skating would increase once again.

The problem, I feel, is that the older generation is too set in their ways and doing the sport a discredit by not embracing something new. They are not interested in selling it. The announcers are not interested in explaining anything, because they are either older and don't like CoP, or they are younger and haven't matured their broadcasting talents to really connect with a general audience.

Ven said:

To be blunt, I don't consider 6.0 FS a sport, but I do consider CoP figure skating a sport. With 6.0, it seems like it's just people making qualitative judgements on a skater's performance, and then assigning random made-up numbers to back up their bias who was better than who. Yuna could go out there and skate her 2013 World Championship Les Mis performance and there could be someone like skateluvr on the panel who could and would rate her below Kostner.

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I think you will find that any way you slice it, it is the judgments of the judges that determine who wins and loses.

In the 2013 world championship just concluded, if the only thing that counted was the objective point scores, Yuna's Les Miz would have been fourth. The base values for completed technical elements were

Asada 62.30
Gold 60.31
Li 60.60
Kim 58.22

So if Kim got fourth place in the "sport" part, why do we all agree that she totally tore up the field?

It is because of the "biases" (judgments) of the judges who, in evaluating the quality of her performance, gave her an untouchable 16 points in Grade of Execution (end of competition) as well as first place program component scores.

Same with the men. Yuzuru Hanyu scored 83.61 on the measurable sports part, 10 points higher than LP winner Denis Ten at 73.23. The judges liked Ten better anyway -- and they even liked Chan better who fell twice.