Petition protesting the men's result at the 2013 WC sent to officials

Skater Boy · Jun 5, 2013

Despite the errors one who knows the scoring system can see how Chan wins. These are diehard skating fans but little do they know or care this is what is killing skating. Remember SLC and how skating really crashed as to popularity. Well keep itup fans and we are our worst enemies. A voice can be a powerful thing both good and bad. Good bye figure skating. We undermine skating by doing this moreso; I understand people's passions but people aren't interested in general to know the nuances of the scoring system and this only adds to the theory skating is a joke.

I fear the worst. We should start protesting perhaps Chock and BAtes who seemed a bit generous in scoring or and the list goes on.

Mathman · Jun 5, 2013

IMHO the petition effort should not make charges of corrupt judging or ISU insider politics. Instead, the point that needs to be made is that the IJS is driving fans away from the sport. Gmers put it really succinctly on another thread: "This is great!; that stinks."

The plain fact is that in the Worlds LP, Denis Ten's performance was great and Patrick Chan's performance stunk. A scoring system that does not acknowledge that common sense evaluation does not serve the sport well.

Mathman · Jun 5, 2013

Skater Boy said:
Despite the errors one who knows the scoring system can see how Chan wins. These are diehard skating fans but little do they know or care this is what is killing skating. Remember SLC and how skating really crashed as to popularity. Well keep itup fans and we are our worst enemies. A voice can be a powerful thing both good and bad. Good bye figure skating. We undermine skating by doing this moreso; I understand people's passions but people aren't interested in general to know the nuances of the scoring system and this only adds to the theory skating is a joke. I fear the worst. We should start protesting perhaps Chock and BAtes who seemed a bit generous in scoring or and the list goes on.

I don't agree that the protests of the fans are the problem. If the judging results are screwy, the problem is that the judging results are screwy, not that the fans protest.

Fans of other sports vociferously holler and scream about referee's calls, etc., but this does not lessen the popularity of those sports. (Quite the contrary.

)

gkelly · Jun 5, 2013

Mathman said:
The plain fact is that in the Worlds LP, Denis Ten's performance was great and Patrick Chan's performance stunk. A scoring system that does not acknowledge that common sense evaluation does not serve the sport well.

I think this is a vast oversimplification of the actual performances and the results at Worlds.

To sum up more accurately in words of this nature:

In the short program, Ten was very good with moments of greatness. Chan was transcendant and won the short convincingly.

In the long program, Ten was again very good with moments of greatness. Chan was very good for most of the program but had several moments of utter failure -- call it stinking if you will. The cumulative effect of several errors resulted in a disappointing performance whose impact was less than the sum of its successful parts.

Ten won the long, but not by enough to close the gap from the short program.

To me, it would make sense to protest that the rules as they now exist do not adequately penalize multiple errors or do not adequately reflect overall impression over and above the sum of the parts, and to propose -- even to demand -- rule changes that will do a better job of producing satisfying results by better rewarding satisfying performances.

But to mischaracterize why the results came out as they did and to demand that they be overturned retroactively is short sighted at best. If you think there's a problem with the system, then aim to fix the system. I don't think anyone wants a sport where the officials do what the rules tell them to do and then emotional reactions to the results overrule the decisions on a regular basis.

Mathman · Jun 5, 2013

gkelly said:
To me, it would make sense to protest that the rules as they now exist do not adequately penalize multiple errors or do not adequately reflect overall impression over and above the sum of the parts, and to propose -- even to demand -- rule changes that will do a better job of producing satisfying results by better rewarding satisfying performances.

But to mischaracterize why the results came out as they did and to demand that they be overturned retroactively is short sighted at best. If you think there's a problem with the system, then aim to fix the system. I don't think anyone wants a sport where the officials do what the rules tell them to do and then emotional reactions to the results overrule the decisions on a regular basis.

I think we are saying the same thing, in different words.

gkelly · Jun 5, 2013

Mathman said:
I think we are saying the same thing, in different words.

Yes, sorry, my last two paragraphs were directed at the supporters of the petition, not at you.

I'd be much happier with a petition that asked for changes in the system that better reflect the overall impression.

Mathman · Jun 5, 2013

^ Actually, I think this could be accomplished within the existing rules. It is not really necessary to have bigger deductions for second and third falls, for instance. The main thing would be to achieve an understanding that you cannot receive 9's in the presentation components by the argument, "Well, 95% of the time he was on his feet, and the falls lasted only a few seconds."

gkelly · Jun 5, 2013

Mathman said:
^ Actually, I think this could be accomplished within the existing rules. It is not really necessary to have bigger deductions for second and third falls, for instance. The main thing would be to achieve an understanding that you cannot receive 9's in the presentation components by the argument, "Well, 95% of the time he was on his feet, and the falls lasted only a few seconds."

The thing is, objectively the skater might in fact be superior 95% or even 98% of a 4.5-minute program with 2-3 errors.

Just looking at the criteria, if skater A is outstanding for 98% of a program and stinks for 2%, scores in the 9s could be justified.

And if skater B is very good for 100% of the program but the only thing that reaches the "outstanding" level is the fact that the very goodness was sustained with absolutely no breaks, it's harder to justify that 9, although 8s would certainly be expected.

I think there would need to be some written wording to support an understanding that, for example, a score of 9 or above represents a consistent level of excellence across the entire program and that for each disruptive error (to be defined?) the component score should be reduced from a maximum of 9, not from 10, regardless of the quality of the rest of the program.

Mathman · Jun 5, 2013

gkelly said:
Just looking at the criteria, if skater A is outstanding for 98% of a program and stinks for 2%, scores in the 9s could be justified.

I think that is a flaw in the scoring system.

clairecloutier · Jun 5, 2013

ForeverFish said:
I don't understand the logic of this petition. It's great that fans are so passionate about the sport that they're willing to put in this sort of effort, but at the end of the day, it embarrasses both Patrick, who KNOWS he had a bad competition and that he barely held onto his title, and Denis, who was beyond elated to even be on the podium and who would have won had he not doubled the triple flip.

As long as no hard evidence of corrupt judging surfaces, it's time to put the issue to rest and focus on the upcoming season. What's done is done.

The petition puts the ISU on notice that the public sees a serious problem with the judging of the sport. That's the key point of the petition, I think. I doubt anyone really expects the ISU to retroactively change the medals. The point is to send a message that the ISU should heed. Figure skating simply can't afford another scandal like this in Sochi in front of a worldwide audience. If the petition adds to the pressure on the ISU to do something about the judging, I think it's all to the good.

As to whether it embarrasses Patrick or makes him uncomfortable . . . . First of all, he's a public figure and, as such, has to know he's going to face criticism. Anyhow, I strongly doubt he's embarrassed. For better or worse, his own opinion of himself doesn't seem to waver too much regardless of what happens. And why would it embarrass Denis to know many people think he should have won? There isn't a person alive who wouldn't be happy to hear that (whether or not they admit it publicly).

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 5, 2013

Here is Patrick's SP from Worlds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x3d6Y5nSYs

At 1:20 is his combo. It is clean but a bit shaky, the quad is shaky and the triple is almost at a standstill. There is also no footwork directly before the jump or anything on the exit. Still he got GOE as high a 3 for that combo. At 1:50 is his 3A. Again, it's clean but forward and almost at a standstill, with no transitions and some nice turns coming out. Again, he gets up to a 3 for GOE.

We all can see the jumps are visibly not perfect, so 3's for that are totally unwarranted. We can argue whether someone deserves high PCS but getting undeserved points on GOE is particularly unfair.

sky_fly20 · Jun 5, 2013

sending and protesting to the wrong people
choosing between Roqque and Chinquanta is like choosing on which to board on 2 sinking ships

its a lose-lose situation
though its a Big win for Chanflated Fraud

Blades of Passion · Jun 5, 2013

snsd said:
People need to get over it and move on.

Stop being cry babies!

Patrick won.
His Technical scores are correct and justifiable with levels and GOE.

But they weren't correct, as stated a couple posts above. His jumps had tight landings and yet were given huge +GOE. If Patrick's jumps in his SP had all been correctly scored as only +1 GOE, then he would have lost the competition.

gkelly said:
In the short program, Ten was very good with moments of greatness. Chan was transcendant and won the short convincingly.

I don't think this is accurate. Chan was not transcendant. Neither his program nor his performance will go down as one of the all-time greats. The choreography was rather plain, the interpretation of the music does not have great depth, and his performance was not fully alive until the jumps were done. Technically he was edged out by Denis Ten, who did better on the Quad and Triple Axel and was quite equal on the spins and footwork. Patrick deserved to win the SP by only a couple points, on strength of his skating skills and superior posture and command of the ice (despite my criticism's of Chan's performance, he still did have a higher level of comfort and projection than Ten).

venlac · Jun 5, 2013

I think mens event in that day, is shown unfair position in figure skating, powerful nation vs small nation in figure skating.
At least, he should deny gold medal, and give it to denis ten.

Dee4707 · Jun 5, 2013

venlac said:
At least, he should deny gold medal, and give it to denis ten.

Yes, I think that would make it all good. He (Patrick) should have done that!! It would have been a 1st.

LRK · Jun 5, 2013

Well, in all seriousness, I don't think that's the skater's job - and what skater would want to antagonise the judges by saying that they got it wrong and scored them to highly? After all, the judges might remedy that with a vengeance in the future...

snsd · Jun 5, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
But they weren't correct, as stated a couple posts above. His jumps had tight landings and yet were given huge +GOE. If Patrick's jumps in his SP had all been correctly scored as only +1 GOE, then he would have lost the competition.

Go read the requirements for judges applying GOE and what exactly the judges are looking for in his jumps and spins! He still satisfies all the requirements!

Blades of Passion · Jun 5, 2013

Actually he doesn't. There's absolutely no way his Triple Axel deserved a +2. It really only satisfied one bullet point, so 0 GOE would have been the appropriate score for that jump. +1 at most.

pharmtech1 · Jun 6, 2013

Exactly , I am curious how many of the figure skating fans actually know and understand the sport and the scoring system . I know many of these fans do not know the rules , a good example is the repeating of the same triple jumps (Joubert) and how this negatively affects the score . Edges and entries and exits mean so much to this sport and most fans just don't get it . As for Patrick I was at the worlds and his short program saved his butt ,it was exceptional ! The free skate was not a great night of skating for almost all of the skaters and this is where the skating skills and intricate choreography played a role in Patrick Chan's win , his skills are just in a different class and no one deny that !! It takes 2 programs to determine the medals people ! I am so tired of listening to the whiners !!! This is fuel for Sochi for Patrick so I am happy for this !!!

pharmtech1 · Jun 6, 2013

venlac said:
I think mens event in that day, is shown unfair position in figure skating, powerful nation vs small nation in figure skating.
At least, he should deny gold medal, and give it to denis ten.

You may want to watch his skate again , I was there that night and it was not perfect by any means as well !!!

Petition protesting the men's result at the 2013 WC sent to officials

Skater Boy

Mathman

Mathman

gkelly

Mathman

gkelly

Mathman

gkelly

Mathman

clairecloutier

drivingmissdaisy

sky_fly20

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

venlac

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

LRK

snsd

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

pharmtech1

pharmtech1

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