What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean | Page 20 | Golden Skate

What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
You haven't really explained why you think the old rules were better besides you think the timing of the rule changes hurts Yuna. But taking Yuna out of it for a second, do you like the old rules better, if so, why? Do you think an excellent 2A should be worth more than a 3Lutz; or a mild UR should be worth less than a double? These are issues that many skating fans have brought up in the four years prior to the rule changes. I have read discussions of all of these issues by skating fans long before the rule changes were implemented.

I am not disagreeing about whether there should be rule changes and in fact acknowledge there are pros and cons to every rules changes 'for the good of the sport'. However I am also politically sensitive and shrewed enough to read between the lines, to know well enough it is entirely down to ISU's administration and their perogative of the time. TIMING and the IMPLICATION are the keys. All changes in the rules are not equal, just as there are some legitimate rules changes for the good of the sport, but there are also changes due to what is good for ISU and its confederates.

It is not so unlike how political party campaigns runs for the 'interest' of the people. There are always positive issues like: improve health services, improve social benefits, cut taxes for the 'general good of the people', reduce unemployment rates, reduce crime etc but while the causes themselves sound good, it is just as much about satisfying political party's sponsor's interests and agendas. Why do you think bankers, the big conglomerates and the super rich continues to be under taxed? What do lobbyist do all day in Washington while getting paid considerably for their 'persuasion'?

Hence goes back to the questions I pose to you, do you think these particular set of changes would have happened post Olympics in exact timeline and specific categories regardless of whether a Mao and Yuna are competing today? The evidence is in the sum of its effect and the timing. Do they result in better skating? Up the technical content? etc.. Things are not always in black and white. Why do you think people say it helps to come from a strong skating federation, and admire those who won despite a weak federation like Yuna, Denis and Javier?

To further answer your question, actually the flutz issues is indeed good for the sport and is not solely changed to benefit Yuna, or hurt Mao - unlike many of the Mao rules today which is there solely to benefit Mao. However, with that one Flutz rule changes, ISU practically had JSF at their door to win favours with resources so they are in a good influential place to sway their own set of rules and agendas, which they got their way as seen in recent years. The influence is visible in many instances such as rule changes passed before it even went to be assessed or debated. How about Cinquanta letter to pressure Yuna to do 4CCs in Korea where Mao is also competing is unprecedented. His apparent distain and disregard for Korea as possibility venue after the Japanese Tsunami disaster as possible alternative veues shows clear biases he doesn't even bother to hide. He could have said, we will consider or discuss all possible options and venues until we found one that will be agree by all, he didn't.

As a sporting governing body that is suppose to govern the sport with integrity and impartiality, has it really achieved these with all these 'incidents' and strategic rule changes? While any good organisation can have bad apples, any bad organisation can have its own heroes, but ISU is an organisation that is currently headed by someone who proved to be unprincipled and obtuse as its leader. He even prolong his own reign by changing the rules he suppose to be govern and uphold, or is the correct term more like 'abuse' of these privileges.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
It is possible that, PCS-wise, I am more enamored of a perfect Mao program than the judges are.
Speaking about judges, here is a video comparing the number of crossovers in FS at WC (you will need an account to watch, take one second to open the one if you don't have any): http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21174372 Yuna- 32, Caro-18, Kanako-16, Mao-7. Yet, the PCS score for transitions is Yuna- 8.89, Caro- 8.46, Mao- 8.21 . Excellent example of the currupted judging system and that yunafans have nothing on topic to say except how dumb everyone else is. :biggrin:
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
4. Hypothetically speaking, yes. But here we are talking about the certain skaters. Yuna's techniques and especially presentation skills are not superior at all, neither to Caro nor Mao. And not to them only.

Moreover, claiming that TES is always more objective than BV is funny. PChan got the world records in SP at the recent Worlds for standstill landings practically for all jumps and "objective" +3 GOE for that.
Yuna's jumps are clearly superior to Mao's-she doesn't flutz, and she actually rotates her second triple.

And according to you, since BV is the only thing objective about judging today, skaters shouldn't even be penalized for flutz/lip. Since skaters should be judged by their BVs, I'm surprised that none of the top skaters claim that they're going to do 4As next season.

5. .. and even HUGER with Kim: -15.48. Her GOE gap with Yuna was -7.7. Obviously for that "only one mistake(edge call in 3Lz) in brilliant 7 triple program(3F+3T, 2A+3T etc.)" as you put it, compared to 6-triple prog of Kim.
(I see. Yuna was help up by PCS and GOE. Thanks for pointing that out. :))

I guess you need to see protocols again to see number of triples that Yuna and Mao landed:
2013 Worlds SP:http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/
2013 Worlds FS:http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

They both landed total of 8 triples-and as for Mao, that's including two-footed, under-rotated triples which Yuna did not have.

I know! I mean about butterfly Mao. But infortunately I can't share your optimism regarding her PCS increasing if she skates clean, when Yuna is competing. Because there is no history to back or/and prove this claim. Mao was clean in SP at Oly, she was still lower in PCS. She was almost clean in FS at Worlds-2010 (got one <), she was still lower in PCS than Yuna with a fall and a miss of one element. Moreover, at the same event in SP where Kim was 7th with crappy skating, she was still second in PCS losing just barely (30.96/30.28).

Oh yes, Mao deserved to have higher PCS than Yuna who clearly had higher BV and better program:laugh:

And at 2013 Worlds, Caro had a fall and still received higher PCS than Yuna who didn't:disapp: Look who's between Yuna and Mao-Caro, whose 3T+3T from SP was so good that technical panel didn't give an UR call to her second 3T, and some judges decided not to give -3 for a jump with a fall.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I think you can guess easily if u are figure skating fan, that competition was held right after olympic which kim had big winning, kim had advantage. So, It is not fair / proper example to guess if asada and kim go clean, would Asada surpass kim in pcs.

so basically what your saying is because Kim won with a big margin at the olympics, it's alright to overscore her at another competition with a different skate hmm, I really find it hard to find any logic in that, how can that be used as a justification:eek::laugh:
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
And according to you, since BV is the only thing objective about judging today
It's not according to me. It's according to some yunafans like yourself cheat to twist people's words they way they wish, the manner of that fandom that I got bored with long time ago. I didn't say that BV is the only thing objective. Sometimes GOE and even PCS can be used more or less objectively, depends on the event, the judges's pannel and what is on the table. I said BV is more objective than GOE and PCS because in BV judges have much lesser space to manipulate. But even in BV they do have some space though, like ur calls and wrong levels.
I guess you need to see protocols again to see number of triples that Yuna and Mao landed.
They both landed total of 8 triples.
I don't need to. I think you do. As well as to read the post well before to push the reply button. The conversation between me and another poster you were replying to was about FS. There Yuna landed 6 triples. As for the total number of triples, it's not 8 either as you claim. Yuna landed 3 in SP and 6 in FS. 3+6 doesn't make 8. For Mao it's 2 and 7 accordingly. 2+7 doesn't make 8 either.
Oh yes, Mao deserved to have higher PCS than Yuna who clearly had higher BV and better program:laugh:
Yuna didn't have higher BV, or better prog, in FS . She was 4th in BV after Mao, Li and Gold. She also did 4.5 more crossovers than Mao (32 vs. 7) and yet she got higher score for transitions: 8.89 vs. 8.21. For example.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
:laugh: @ this thread..i believe there are some sensible posts here.. and it's getting hilarious..

so.. basically yuna who showed up at this year's Worlds after almost 2 year break basically won her 2nd major title with a BACK to BACK clean programs..while others crumble.. and then kicking some as* but haters are still trying to find a way to put a stain into it.. take some bitter pill..i know it's hard to swallow..move on.. you have a new season ahead.. because no matter what.. yuna won fair and square.. and haters gonna hate.. :laugh:

besides the olympics will be held in Russia...where *stuff* happens.. :popcorn:
 
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vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
so basically what your saying is because Kim won with a big margin at the olympics, it's alright to overscore her at another competition with a different skate hmm, I really find it hard to find any logic in that, how can that be used as a justification:eek::laugh:

The thing is, that Yuna deserved to win the Olympics, and she didn't deserve to win 2010 Worlds, so she didn't win there. When Yuna wins, it's because she deserves it, not because judges simply love her.

Mao, on the other hand, won gold over Akiko who clearly had better skates at NHK 2012. So is it logical to say that since Mao's an Olympic silver medalist and two-time World Champion, it's okay to give gold to her over an other skater who had better skates? While Yuna's problem(as some Mao fans say) is that she's always overscored, Mao's is that she can win gold even if she don't deserve it. What's worse?
 

DarR

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
*Caro might have won if she had skated clean at 2013 Worlds.

Yuna's SP score: 69.97 (36.79+33.18) [clean skate]

Caro's SP score: 66.86 (34.01+33.85) [not a clean skate with a fall]

Hypothetically, Caro would have scored 4.10 points higher if she had skated cleanly. Caro would have scored 70.96 for her SP. This is under the assumption that her PCS score doesn't change, but most probably it would have been higher.

1) +3.10 TES [for a +1.40 GOE 3T-3T].
2) +1.00 because she fell.

Yuna skated cleanly for her FS at worlds. FS Score of 148.34 (74.73+73.61).

Caro obviously didn't skate cleanly for her FS at worlds. FS Score of 131.03 (61.34+70.69).

Hypothetically, this would have been Caro's FS score if she had skated cleanly:

1) 1Lo (0.51) to 3Lo (5.61+1.30... her GOE for SP 3Lo) ... +6.4 TES.
2) 3S<< (0.83) to 3S (4.62+1.00... her GOE for her FS 3S combo) ... +4.79 TES.
3) +1.00 because she fell (again :p).

Therefore, Caro's FS score would've been 143.22, under the assumption that her PCS remains the same again.

Caro would have scored 214.18 without any PCS changes. Just 4.13 lower than Yuna's total score. This is understandable as Yuna's BV would've still been higher, if Caro had skated cleanly. (89.85 vs 88.93).

One would never know what Caro's PCS for her SP and FS would've been if she had skated cleanly, it didn't happen! It would only require the judges to score Caro a tad higher PCS for her to win. Let's say PCS 74.95 for a clean Caro (because she would've hypothetically been scored 1.34 higher than Yuna from the looks of her SP score). Voila! Caro wins by 0.13, even with a lower BV (of 0.92) than Yuna's. We can continue playing with these hypothetical numbers, but it would'nt have changed the fact that Yuna won fair and squarely, and that a clean Yuna has about the same scoring potential as a clean Caro.

*Mao might have won too, if she had skated cleanly at worlds.

let`s talk, most of our GS posters used Yuna's REAL result from the REAL protocols from 2013 worlds because that IS Yuna's hypothetical clean skate score. It isn't, however, Mao's clean planned skate with 8 triples for Sochi (well it seems to be this way to me).

Hypothetically, a clean Mao would've scored 71.82 for her SP, assuming no change in PCS.

1) +0.86 TES (+1.00 GOE assumption) higher for her 3A (two footed in worlds SP).
2) 3F<-2Lo to 3F-2Lo (0.70 GOE) ... +2.8 TES.
3) 1Lo to 3Lo (0.70 GOE) ... +6.06 TES.

Hypothetically, a clean Mao would've scored 142.56 for her 7 triple FS, assuming no change in PCS.

1) +3.14 TES for her 3A.
2) 3F< to 3F ... +3.5 TES.
3) 3F-2Lo<-2Lo to 3F-2Lo-2Lo ... +1.55 TES.

Mao would have scored 214.38 without any PCS changes. Just 3.93 lower than Yuna's. Mao's spins were far from perfect (4 out of 6 L3 spins), and her PCS would be a tad higher too.

Any of these 3 wonderful skaters would have won worlds if they were clean (just a 4 point differential between the 3 of them, a mere TES difference of a 2A... with +GOE of course :p).

Sochi will be a close fight without a doubt, much much closer than in Vancouver! But it all depends on their programs for the next season too right? Fairly early to discuss who may win now, though it's off season so why not discuss! :p

If Yuna, Mao (with her 3F-3Lo and 3Lz ratified), Caro all skate cleanly without changing their current layouts and with 'fair' PCS scores... I would have to say Mao > Yuna = Caro. However, given that the probability of Yuna skating clean >> Caro and Mao, I would have to say I'm placing my bets on Yuna's win for Sochi now!
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Speaking about judges, here is a video comparing the number of crossovers in FS at WC (you will need an account to watch, take one second to open the one if you don't have any): http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21174372 Yuna- 32, Caro-18, Kanako-16, Mao-7. Yet, the PCS score for transitions is Yuna- 8.89, Caro- 8.46, Mao- 8.21 . Excellent example of the currupted judging system and that yunafans have nothing on topic to say except how dumb everyone else is. :biggrin:

Interesting video, through this isn't something new, I'm pleasantly surprised that someone actually took the time to count the number of crossovers and compare them. I always knew that both Kim and Kostner use a lot of crossovers but seeing the numbers puts it well in perspective!
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
I don't need to. I think you do. As well as to read the post well before to push the reply button. The conversation between me and another poster you were replying to was about FS. There Yuna landed 6 triples. As for the total number of triples, it's not 8 either as you claim. Yuna landed 3 in SP and 6 in FS. 3+6 doesn't make 8. For Mao it's 2 and 7 accordingly. 2+7 doesn't make 8 either.

Oh, my mistake there. They both landed a total number of 9 triples. So, they landed same number of triples. It doesn't chance this fact, does it?
Skaters' SP should be judged as well as FS-some people forget that SP even exist. Unfortunately, judges don't decide on skaters' placements by number of triples they landed at FS.

Yuna didn't have higher BV, or better prog, in FS . She was 4th in BV after Mao, Li and Gold. She also did 4.5 more crossovers than Mao (32 vs. 7) and yet she got higher score for transitions: 8.89 vs. 8.21. For example.

I was referring to this:
I know! I mean about butterfly Mao. But infortunately I can't share your optimism regarding her PCS increasing if she skates clean, when Yuna is competing. Because there is no history to back or/and prove this claim. Mao was clean in SP at Oly, she was still lower in PCS. She was almost clean in FS at Worlds-2010 (got one <), she was still lower in PCS than Yuna with a fall and a miss of one element. Moreover, at the same event in SP where Kim was 7th with crappy skating, she was still second in PCS losing just barely (30.96/30.28).
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Every now and then, it occurs to me that it's too bad judges can't wait until everyone skates and then give out their marks. Nowadays with videos, judges and tech people could evaluate the heck out of everything and really grade the skaters.

I know, I know--never going to happen. But since we're hypothesizing....

On another subject, one factor we have to add to the possibilities are the temperaments of these three skaters. YuNa is known to be as cool as ice under pressure, and she's demonstrated that again and again. Mao's temperament to me seems to be gutsy: whether she's anxious or not, she just never gives up. We've all seen her rescue herself in the long program after she has problems in the short. It's a trait I admire tremendously in her.

Carolina used to be the most easily shaken of the three in terms of confidence. But something has happened to her recently: she seems to be stronger and steadier. I just hope this approach continues into Sochi. Then she can show us what she's really capable of!
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Every now and then, it occurs to me that it's too bad judges can't wait until everyone skates and then give out their marks. Nowadays with videos, judges and tech people could evaluate the heck out of everything and really grade the skaters.

I know, I know--never going to happen. But since we're hypothesizing....

I thought it would be nice to have some system which can determine whether the skaters URed their jump or not-the way technical panels determine UR calls semmed quite objective to me.
 

DarR

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Every now and then, it occurs to me that it's too bad judges can't wait until everyone skates and then give out their marks. Nowadays with videos, judges and tech people could evaluate the heck out of everything and really grade the skaters.

I know, I know--never going to happen. But since we're hypothesizing....

I have noticed a clear obvious case of BAD judging. Yuna could've won 2011 worlds --- why? I'll explain later. But then again, who knows? Her thoughts and feelings would've been so so so different during that 2 years break she had... and she might not have won 2013 worlds in such an incredible fashion. Maybe we've to thank the bad judging in 2011 worlds! But.. 3 time world champion for Yuna? I dream over it, not possible now guys! :(.

As for the bad judging at 2011 worlds... I would like to re-confirm with you guys. A 6-second spiral is or 2 3-second spirals are the requirement(s) for a spiral sequence then, right?

This issue has been on my mind for a really long time (a year I think :p). Take a look at Miki's spiral in her 2011 worlds FS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_AtQv9ub4 ... her spiral sequence (starts at 2.52 when her leg is just above her hip... to 2.57 when she places her left leg back onto the ice) lasted only 5 seconds. Maybe 5.98372, but I'm pretty sure it's less than 6.

Her 'ChSp1' score of 3.29 should have been voided.. and Yuna should've been the winner. But oh well :p.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
On another subject, one factor we have to add to the possibilities are the temperaments of these three skaters. YuNa is known to be as cool as ice under pressure, and she's demonstrated that again and again. Mao's temperament to me seems to be gutsy: whether she's anxious or not, she just never gives up. We've all seen her rescue herself in the long program after she has problems in the short. It's a trait I admire tremendously in her.

Carolina used to be the most easily shaken of the three in terms of confidence. But something has happened to her recently: she seems to be stronger and steadier. I just hope this approach continues into Sochi. Then she can show us what she's really capable of!

:thumbsup: Let's wish each of these 'wonder women' ;) to skate lights out on two nights at their (probably) last Olympic Games! Then that's going to be a real 'feast' for every skating fans in the world, regardless whom we root for more/the most. :yes:
We should rather celebrate :party2: together, instead of whining, right? ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Speaking about judges, here is a video comparing the number of crossovers in FS at WC (you will need an account to watch, take one second to open the one if you don't have any): http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21174372 Yuna- 32, Caro-18, Kanako-16, Mao-7. Yet, the PCS score for transitions is Yuna- 8.89, Caro- 8.46, Mao- 8.21 . Excellent example of the currupted judging system...

Here is how judges determine the program component scores. Skating Skills is first. The judges try to decide who skated well and who skated poorly.

Transitions is next. The judges subtract .375 points from the SS score and that's the TR score.

Now the other three, The judges copy down the skating skills score three times.

Check it out and see if I am right of not. :)

To me, trying to evaluate the "Transitions and Connecting Footwork" component separately instead of according to the formula given above, the hardest one to judge is Kostner. Many of her transitions and connecting movements involve "transitions" of her upper body, not just blade work, so I am not sure how the CoP gives credit to that.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
:thumbsup: Let's wish each of these 'wonder women' ;) to skate lights out on two nights at their (probably) last Olympic Games! Then that's going to be a real 'feast' for every skating fans in the world, regardless whom we root for more/the most. :yes:
We should rather celebrate :party2: together, instead of whining, right? ;)

Right!
 

MiRé

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Russian ladies have much superior artisty than Yuna's robotic skating with same mimic no matter what music is playing. They also have good-quality jumps and some of them like Sotnikova are much better spinners. :p

You can't compare Yuna's artistry with those babies. Spins I agree, but jumps? No. Yuna is far most consistent skater in ladies, plus Yuna is mentally strong. ( did you not see Russians in World 2013?)

You can use your own words in italics as my reply.

HA! So you did run out of arguments now. You should've just stopped when you realized you were wrong, because it only made you look even more stupid

P.S. you still didn't provide any "evidence" that backs your argument :rolleye:
but that's ok, because I know you can't provide one knowing you're wrong. Plus, you're just going to whine and cry like Mao at 2010 Olympics. (I mean, you call Yuna robotic, why can't I say Mao is a cry baby :sarcasm: )
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Here is how judges determine the program component scores. Skating Skills is first. The judges try to decide who skated well and who skated poorly.

Transitions is next. The judges subtract .375 points from the SS score and that's the TR score.

Now the other three, The judges copy down the skating skills score three times.

Check it out and see if I am right of not. :)

To me, trying to evaluate the "Transitions and Connecting Footwork" component separately instead of according to the formula given above, the hardest one to judge is Kostner. Many of her transitions and connecting movements involve "transitions" of her upper body, not just blade work, so I am not sure how the CoP gives credit to that.

I didn't realize that video propaganda fueled by nationalistic bias was allowed to be posted on these boards.
 
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