What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean | Page 9 | Golden Skate

What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Yes. Carolina's jumps are technically clean (ie. correct edge take offs). Her jumps aren't as high as Yu-Na's but they get decent height, cover a ton of ice, are approached with good speed, have tight and clean air position, are landed with lots of speed and a fast, clean and solid riding edge, plus her landing checks are nicely extended and she often holds her edge.

Yes. I really think Carolina's jumps deserve similar GOE as Yu-Na's jumps.

please, give your one more answer.
As a figure skating fan, objectively, These two have same quality? Carolina has barely rotated second triple toe. kim 3-3 is even that 'triple lutz' and 'triple toe' height is almost same. there is much difference in the speed to approched.

Carolina kostner 3-3 in 2013 World
Yuna kim 3-3 in 2013 World
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
I agree. I think Carolina's jumps should be valued like Yuna's. At least she doesn't have technical problems(edge calls) when many other skaters do.

If Caro's jumps are behind Yuna's for a reason or two, it's because she's not able to add 3T(or 3Lo) consistently to her 3T/3Lz/3F. Otherwise, her jumps are one of the best we see today, along with Yuna's and Gracie's.

We can't include Gracie in the discussion from a technical standpoint (she's a chronic lip-per) but I definitely like the power and height she gets. I do think her landings (like the rest of her skating) are very stiff-looking though. It'd be nice to see her hold her landings for a count or two...
 

jiggs

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
please, give your one more answer.
As a figure skating fan, objectively, These two have same quality? Carolina has barely rotated second triple toe. kim 3-3 is even that 'triple lutz' and 'triple toe' height is almost same. there is much difference in the speed to approched.

Carolina kostner 3-3 in 2013 World
Yuna kim 3-3 in 2013 World

In this particular example, Yuna's execution is clearly better, which was reflected in GOE respectively (1.90 for Yuna / 0.90 for Carolina). That is a whole point difference, which seems about right for those two combinations.

Take a look at their single 3lutzes in the same programs, both executed beautifully. Yuna received 1.80 GOE, Carolina 1.60. That seems right to me. They should be on par if the jumps are executed this well.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
please, give your one more answer.
As a figure skating fan, objectively, These two have same quality? Carolina has barely rotated second triple toe. kim 3-3 is even that 'triple lutz' and 'triple toe' height is almost same. there is much difference in the speed to approched.

Carolina kostner 3-3 in 2013 World
Yuna kim 3-3 in 2013 World

Obviously, this isn't a good comparison.

You took a clean 3-3 from Yu-Na and a shaky 3-3 from Carolina. Naturally, Yu-Na's combo is better here. However, if Carolina had executed this combo without the shaky landing then, again, YES these are of similar quality.

It seems like you are trying to convince me that Yu-Na's jumps are far better than Carolina's so let me save you some time...when both ladies execute their jumps cleanly, I truly believe they are deserving of similar GOE.

So no matter how many comparisons you want to throw at me, my answer will remain the same: When Carolina Kostner executes her jumps cleanly, her jumps deserve to be included in the same category as Yu-Na Kim's jumps. That's my opinion. You disagree...that is your opinion.

There is no need to try to change my opinion to yours.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
We can't include Gracie in the discussion from a technical standpoint (she's a chronic lip-per) but I definitely like the power and height she gets. I do think her landings (like the rest of her skating) are very stiff-looking though. It'd be nice to see her hold her landings for a count or two...

To be fair, I don't think her lip is as bad as it was at the beginning of the season. I feel Gracie has worked on reigning the lip in -- that's a big reason she's has problems executing the jump this season. At Worlds she got straight -1 GOE for the issue, which tells me they consider it more of what was the (!) than a severe (e).

As to Carolina's jumps vs. Yuna, I do feel that Yuna gets a bit more height, but Carolina has great speed and flow coming out of her jumps.
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Carolina has a problem rotating a second triple. That one is very barely rotated and some of her 3T+3Ts are borderline or downright URed as well.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Obviously, this isn't a good comparison.

You took a clean 3-3 from Yu-Na and a shaky 3-3 from Carolina. Naturally, Yu-Na's combo is better here. However, if Carolina had executed this combo without the shaky landing then, again, YES these are of similar quality.

It seems like you are trying to convince me that Yu-Na's jumps are far better than Carolina's so let me save you some time...when both ladies execute their jumps cleanly, I truly believe they are deserving of similar GOE.

So no matter how many comparisons you want to throw at me, my answer will remain the same: When Carolina Kostner executes her jumps cleanly, her jumps deserve to be included in the same category as Yu-Na Kim's jumps. That's my opinion. You disagree...that is your opinion.

There is no need to try to change my opinion to yours.

There was no "when Carolina had executed this combo without the shaky landing" in past season.

Unfortunately,I was tried to find Carolina's 3-3 in past season. but that was the best 3-3 of her in past season.
In euros, she fell on 3-3 in SP, and didnt attempt in FS. And it is her 3-3 at national. It looks even more shaky than that. http://youtu.be/pby8dE2bKho?t=40s
So, I chose '3-3 in FS in World' as an example.
 

jiggs

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
There was no "when Carolina had executed this combo without the shaky landing" in past season.

Unfortunately,I was tried to find Carolina's 3-3 in past season. but that was the best 3-3 of her in past season.
In euros, she fell on 3-3 in SP, and didnt attempt in FS. And it is her 3-3 at national. It looks even more shaky than that. http://youtu.be/pby8dE2bKho?t=40s
So, I chose '3-3 in FS in World' as an example.

Why are you focusing on 3-3s only?

Anyways, what about this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVZ5QumnSpk
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Isn't the question whether Carolina should get similar +GOE than Yuna in jumps? Whether she has or doesn't have a 3-3 wouldn't really answer that question would it?
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
To be fair, I don't think her lip is as bad as it was at the beginning of the season. I feel Gracie has worked on reigning the lip in -- that's a big reason she's has problems executing the jump this season. At Worlds she got straight -1 GOE for the issue, which tells me they consider it more of what was the (!) than a severe (e).

I agree. It's still a problem but it's not as pronounced as before. That means if she keeps working on it eventually she'll get it right.


Unfortunately,I was tried to Carolina's 3-3 in past season. but that was the best 3-3 of her in past season.
In euros, she fell on 3-3 in SP, and didnt attempt in FS.
And it is her 3-3 at national. It looks even more shaky than that. http://youtu.be/pby8dE2bKho?t=40s
So, I chose '3-3 in FS in World' as an example

Understandable. However, my opinion of their quality of jumps is not based solely on each lady's ability to execute a 3-3; that's what you seem to be basing it on.

My opinion is that when you compare their jumps on the whole, they are of similar quality. If you compare a each jump (lutz vs lutz, salchow vs salchow, axel vs axel) both are capable of executing them very well and, were each to land the jump cleanly, I am of the opinion that (give or take) their jumps are of equal quality. Yu-Na gets better height but Carolina checks her landing and holds her edge better...both have speed, coverage and good air position.

I don't know how to explain it better than that...

ETA: Thank you Jeebus! At least someone understands what I'm saying...
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
In this particular example, Yuna's execution is clearly better, which was reflected in GOE respectively (1.90 for Yuna / 0.90 for Carolina). That is a whole point difference, which seems about right for those two combinations.

Take a look at their single 3lutzes in the same programs, both executed beautifully. Yuna received 1.80 GOE, Carolina 1.60. That seems right to me. They should be on par if the jumps are executed this well.

I agree with your opinion about 3-3, 3lutz. what i disagreed about kwanatic's post was that carolina's overall jump technique quality is similar with Yuna's.
 

jiggs

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
I agree. what i disagreed about kwanatic's post was that carolina's overall jump technique quality is similar with Yuna's.

Can you elaborate more? What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna? Like kwanatic said, if you compare each jump (lutz vs lutz, salchow vs salchow, axel vs axel) both are capable of executing them very well and should receive similar GOE.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna? Like kwanatic said, if you compare each jump (lutz vs lutz, salchow vs salchow, axel vs axel) both are capable of executing them very well and should receive similar GOE.

So your claim is... they must get same or similar GOE when they execute their jumps well.. I can never agree. I just would not argue about it anymore
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
I don't think that Carolina is missing anything in technique. When landed, her jumps are very nice and definitely deserve +GOE for all the qualities that have been mentioned above.

The one thing that Carolina lacks a bit versus Yu-Na is effortlessness (which is one of the bullets to get +GOE). Carolina's telegraphing/set-up for her lutzes, flip, and axel make the jumps not feel completely effortless. In the FS, Yu-Na also has more transitions into and out of her jumps than Carolina does before hers (i.e. see her flip, solo lutz, both of her 2A passes)--which again, affects +GOE. That's how Yu-Na earns extra +GOE versus Carolina and other skaters.
 

jiggs

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
So your claim is... they must get same or similar GOE when they execute their jumps well.. I can never agree. I just would not argue about it anymore

Why? I asked you to elaborate further and your answer is simply "I can never agree". Please give me an example or a reason as of why you think they should not receive similar GOE and why Carolina's quality is inferior. I would really like to know.
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
So your claim is... they must get same or similar GOE when they execute their jumps well.. I can never agree. I just would not argue about it anymore

I try to be impartial and not stir up drama on this board but at this point I have to ask...

Why are you unable to elaborate on Jiggs' question? ("What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna?") When you asked me to explain my views (several times, might I add) I did my best to give you an objective reason as to why I feel Yu-Na and Carolina's jumps are of similar quality...why are you unable to do the same?

So I'd like to second Jiggs' question: In your opinion Venlac, when it comes to each individual jump (not 3-3s b/c we've already established Yu-Na is better at executing those), what overall jump technique quality is Carolina missing to match Yu-Na?

I'm not trying to be mean. I honestly want to know. I was courteous enough to offer my explanations to your questions so I'm just asking you to return the favor.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Perhaps it's that Carolina is inconsistent in landing her elements at their best quality and to that, I would agree (she has inconsistent jump issues, ie that while she CAN execute things t a high quality she doesn't do it in her programs consistently (she's probably a 70-80% competitor)). Carolina DOES have a full set of jumps with no edge calls, however, which is in some respects more impressive than what the balance of the top 10 is capable of (Kim has no 3Lo and occasionally a 3F (e), Asada has 3Lz (e) even if she lands an occasionally clean 3A, Murakami has 3Lz (e), Wagner has 3Lz (e), Gold has 3F (e), Li has 3Lz (e), Sotnikova has 3Lz (e), Osmond has 3Lz (e), Suzuki has 3Lz (e); the only other top 12 lady with clean take offs and a full set of jumps is Tuktamysheva).
 
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