The Quadruple Jump for the Ladies in Sochi

Krislite · Jul 5, 2013

Not that some ladies aren't capable of quads, but I'd prefer clean programs with good presentation than a splat-fest among the ladies, which would surely be the general result if more of them go for such great difficulty. It seems the men can hardly do clean programs these days what with all the quads they're throwing around. I can't imagine it'd be any better for the women.

Pepe Nero · Jul 5, 2013

Krislite said:
Not that some ladies aren't capable of quads, but I'd prefer clean programs with good presentation than a splat-fest among the ladies, which would surely be the general result if more of them go for such great difficulty. It seems the men can hardly do clean programs these days what with all the quads they're throwing around. I can't imagine it'd be any better for the women.

Yeah, I think that's totally reasonable, so long as one maintains the same position for both the women's and men's events. The emphasis on the quad has made a mess of men's programs in the past few years, which is why Denis Ten's skates at Worlds this past year were so refreshing (I think).

I would be good, too, with a manipulation of point values that encouraged some care and cleanliness by male skaters and some risk-taking and athleticism among the women -- institutionalized incentives for gender bending.

But it really does bother me when people (not attributing this to you, Krislite) say that men need to display strength and a risk-taking nature, while women need to have clean programs with poised presentation. (Especially since such assertions are usually followed by a denigration of women's skating abilities, "skating abilities" usually implicitly reduced to jumping prowess.)

gmyers · Jul 5, 2013

It's total nonsense and almost bs to blame quads for falls! Like chan for example fell all over when he wasn't doing quads! How about All triple Oda singling three jumps worlds 2010. Look at all programs where people has trouble with triple axels with no quads. yOu can be a disaster wIth all triples or be a phenomenal with three quads Fernandez euros 2013.

Krislite · Jul 6, 2013

Pepe Nero said:
Yeah, I think that's totally reasonable, so long as one maintains the same position for both the women's and men's events. The emphasis on the quad has made a mess of men's programs in the past few years, which is why Denis Ten's skates at Worlds this past year were so refreshing (I think).

I would be good, too, with a manipulation of point values that encouraged some care and cleanliness by male skaters and some risk-taking and athleticism among the women -- institutionalized incentives for gender bending.

But it really does bother me when people (not attributing this to you, Krislite) say that men need to display strength and a risk-taking nature, while women need to have clean programs with poised presentation. (Especially since such assertions are usually followed by a denigration of women's skating abilities, "skating abilities" usually implicitly reduced to jumping prowess.)

Personally, if it meant cleaner programs from the men I would prefer fewer quads. Thrilling as it is to see quads, it's a big detraction to me when skaters fall or make obvious mistakes. It doesn't matter if it's a ladies or men's program. (Not that I'm advocating quadless programs, I just wish skaters were more aware of their limits and not push too far--just to edge.)

Bluebonnet · Jul 6, 2013

Pepe Nero said:
I clicked on this thread with excitement, and was titillated by christinaskater's OP. I was all aflutter with which of the benevolently sexist comments on the first page to select to respond to. Then, I thought I'd just summarize them: "Ladies can't do that. No way, no how. And even if they could, ladies need to be careful. They are delicate." (Apologies in advance for over-generalizing. It's the internet for heck's sake.)

I was also overwhelmed with the deep irony, since the very same arguments made in this thread against women attempting quads are typically (in my experience posting on GS) dismissed in the case of male skaters, for whom a quad is believed to be a necessity, regardless of risk of injury or the time training one takes away from other skills.

I was so glad (in a bittersweet way) when Bluebonnet later made my choice of posts to respond to easy...

I mean, God forbid!

Because maintaining gender distinctions, and alleged male superiority, is the most important thing, after all!

I forgot that women and men are supposed to be "the same" in muscle mass and physical abilities. Even recognizing the physical gender difference is "bias". The trend is to let the children choose what they want to be - male or female. :rofl:

spikydurian · Jul 6, 2013

Krislite said:
Personally, if it meant cleaner programs from the men I would prefer fewer quads. Thrilling as it is to see quads, it's a big detraction to me when skaters fall or make obvious mistakes. It doesn't matter if it's a ladies or men's program. (Not that I'm advocating quadless programs, I just wish skaters were more aware of their limits and not push too far--just to edge.)

I think it will depend on the rules. If the rules encourages 'risk taking', athletes will take the risk to push themselves to achieve more. If the ladies can achieve more points with quads over a triple, I won't be surprised if there will more ladies some in the future trying quads.

mary01 · Jul 6, 2013

FlattFan said:
I always think Kostner could have gotten the 4F if she really trains for it.

Just look at the speed, the height, and the distance. If she skates faster, and rotates a bit faster, she can squeeze another rotation in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WOf6-8lT9t0#t=94s

I don't see her getting any other quad.

Mao, slight chance at a 4Lo, but so unlikely because she could barely rotate her 3Lo now.

Murakami has no problem with her first 3T, and her first 3T is always explosive and huge, so I think she can get a 4T.

Yuna's best jump is 3Lz, so maybe she can go for 4Lz.

Mao never underrotates her 3lo, and when i say never i mean never, so please check your sources before making these ridiculous claims.
I actually think Mao is one of the most likely to include a quad either a 4lo or 4s, and i wouldn't be surprised if she still is practicing them, I think the practice clips of her doing quad a few years ago looked amazing.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jul 6, 2013

gmyers said:
It's total nonsense and almost bs to blame quads for falls! Like chan for example fell all over when he wasn't doing quads! How about All triple Oda singling three jumps worlds 2010. Look at all programs where people has trouble with triple axels with no quads. yOu can be a disaster wIth all triples or be a phenomenal with three quads Fernandez euros 2013.

Most of the top men's skaters have fallen or made major errors in some program or another, whether they were doing quads or not. Fernandez has had more programs with falls than he has had 3 quad programs. Joubert and Chan have fallen on double axels. Daisuke has fallen on non-quad elements. Hanyu has fallen on spins and while stroking around. Ice is slippery.

I should clarify that for the topic at hand, I don't think we will see a single quad attempt by any lady in Sochi. Some might hype it up, but I just don't picture it happening. The ladies would do better to focus on 3-3 combinations and ensuring they have repeated triples at a higher level (i.e. a second lutz or flip). Improvement in PCS will also be key to placing higher, and will earn more points on the whole than a quad attempt, or even a successful quad, would ever earn them (even if it does get bragging rights).

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jul 6, 2013

mary01 said:
Mao never underrotates her 3lo, and when i say never i mean never, so please check your sources before making these ridiculous claims.

Never say never.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2010/gpjpn10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

gmyers · Jul 6, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Most of the top men's skaters have fallen or made major errors in some program or another, whether they were doing quads or not. Fernandez has had more programs with falls than he has had 3 quad programs. Joubert and Chan have fallen on double axels. Daisuke has fallen on non-quad elements. Hanyu has fallen on spins and while stroking around. Ice is hts).

Quads, no quads skaters will indeed fall on triples or doubles or spins so saying quads are creating a more messy sport isn't accurate to me! Clean perfection is rare so you might as well take risks.

vera01 · Jul 6, 2013

mary01 said:
Mao never underrotates her 3lo, and when i say never i mean never, so please check your sources before making these ridiculous claims.
I actually think Mao is one of the most likely to include a quad either a 4lo or 4s, and i wouldn't be surprised if she still is practicing them, I think the practice clips of her doing quad a few years ago looked amazing.

Never?

Mao's protocols from this season that included URed 3Los:
1.2013 WTT FS:http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2013/wtt2013_Ladies_FS_F_Scores.pdf
2.2013 4CC FS:http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/fc2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

From 2010-2011 season:
1.2010 NHK Trophy SP:http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2010/gpjpn10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

Here's the source. That's too much URed 3Los for never having an URed 3Lo, isn't it? Her 3Los are good when she actually lands them, but she does have URed 3Lo at times.

I'd be surprised if she adds 4S. IMO Caro, Yuna and Gracie are much more likely than Mao to actually rotate/land the 4S, while I doubt any of them would have a sucess rate high enough to land them consistently in most competitions.

minze · Jul 6, 2013

this thread will become a Mao is not perfect thread now. it gets boring. Mao is not perfect no one skater is

mary01 · Jul 6, 2013

vera01 said:
Never?

Mao's protocols from this season that included URed 3Los:
1.2013 WTT FS:http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2013/wtt2013_Ladies_FS_F_Scores.pdf
2.2013 4CC FS:http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/fc2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

From 2010-2011 season:
1.2010 NHK Trophy SP:http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2010/gpjpn10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

Here's the source. That's too much URed 3Los for never having an URed 3Lo, isn't it? Her 3Los are good when she actually lands them, but she does have URed 3Lo at times.

I'd be surprised if she adds 4S. IMO Caro, Yuna and Gracie are much more likely than Mao to actually rotate/land the 4S, while I doubt any of them would have a sucess rate high enough to land them consistently in most competitions.

Firstly the first two links show her doing the extremely difficult combo (3f-3lo) and not as a single jump, and in my previous post I said that Mao never underrotes the 3lo, as a single jump. the number of skaters who succeeded this difficult combo can be counted on one maybe two hands and Mao is one of them.

the only exception there is in that regard was once two years ago in NHK, where she just began reworking her technique and therefor was in a very bad condition because of that. so trying to imply that Mao has any problem with the 3lo as a single jump, is a fabricated lie, with no statistics to back it up.

if Mao is able to overrotate her 3A which normally is three and a half rotation, then a quad is not that unlikely to think of, I also have seen her 4s when she was younger, she has a good air positioning, good height, and most importantly she rotates fast in the air, so basically has all what a skater needs. I also don't think that her former coach Hiroshi Nagakubo would have openly said that she should include a quad if he didn't think she was capable of it. he is a well known jump coach and i trust his judgement on the matter.

ffionhanathomas · Jul 6, 2013

I would love to see a lady try a quad, but I do think it's unlikely yet not entirely certain.

I do think we'll see more difficult combinations though, yet I'm not sure about the quad or triple axel (minus Mao who is likely to try it considering it's the olympics?).

Who knows what we'll see!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jul 6, 2013

mary01 said:
Firstly the first two links show her doing the extremely difficult combo (3f-3lo) and not as a single jump, and in my previous post I said that Mao never underrotes the 3lo, as a single jump. the number of skaters who succeeded this difficult combo can be counted on one maybe two hands and Mao is one of them.

the only exception there is in that regard was once two years ago in NHK, where she just began reworking her technique and therefor was in a very bad condition because of that. so trying to imply that Mao has any problem with the 3lo as a single jump, is a fabricated lie, with no statistics to back it up.

if Mao is able to overrotate her 3A which normally is three and a half rotation, then a quad is not that unlikely to think of, I also have seen her 4s when she was younger, she has a good air positioning, good height, and most importantly she rotates fast in the air, so basically has all what a skater needs. I also don't think that her former coach Hiroshi Nagakubo would have openly said that she should include a quad if he didn't think she was capable of it. he is a well known jump coach and i trust his judgement on the matter.

Well if there is one only exception then that would be an exception to saying she *never* URs her 3L. Regardless of the circumstances (reworking her technique isn't exactly an excuse because she wasn't reworking her loop technique and she landed the 3L fully rotated in that same competition, so clearly she was capable). But you're can't really call people out for not backing up their sources and insisting that she's *never* (instead of "It's a rarity to see her UR a 3L" or "She's only ever URed once"). I agree that saying she URed a 3L on a 3F-3L isn't a strike against her (nor are the times she popped her loop)... but that SP clearly shows that she hasn't had fully rotated 3L's in every competition she's been in.

Sorry, but I can't picture her doing a 4S. Her 3S is one of her least reliable and most poorly executed triples in terms of speed and height. Are there any videos of her 4S when she was younger?

gmyers · Jul 6, 2013

This may become as bad as when Mao did triples because the protocol said she did 3whatever with a <! So you'll have someone saying" she did all triples! If she didn't do a triple it would not say 3whatever in the protocol!"

mary01 · Jul 6, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Well if there is one only exception then that would be an exception to saying she *never* URs her 3L. Regardless of the circumstances (reworking her technique isn't exactly an excuse because she wasn't reworking her loop technique and she landed the 3L fully rotated in that same competition, so clearly she was capable). But you're can't really call people out for not backing up their sources and insisting that she's *never* (instead of "It's a rarity to see her UR a 3L" or "She's only ever URed once"). I agree that saying she URed a 3L on a 3F-3L isn't a strike against her (nor are the times she popped her loop)... but that SP clearly shows that she hasn't had fully rotated 3L's in every competition she's been in.

Sorry, but I can't picture her doing a 4S. Her 3S is one of her least reliable and most poorly executed triples in terms of speed and height. Are there any videos of her 4S when she was younger?

Through i wrote never, I also mentioned the one exception (you took the word "never" to literal), and I think I can call people out when they make a fake claim.

Anyway I couldn't find the most recent practice clips that show her doing a 4s/4lo, but i found some old ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6DUe7iqRS4 --- around 3:32 you will see her 4S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-IT72GWrWE ---- around 9:32 you will see another attempt to a 4S

minze · Jul 6, 2013

gmyers said:
This may become as bad as when Mao did triples because the protocol said she did 3whatever with a <! So you'll have someone saying" she did all triples! If she didn't do a triple it would not say 3whatever in the protocol!"

And you should remember because you led the way on that subject. Your outrage over her protocols and nitpick over how many triples she did is legendary.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jul 6, 2013

mary01 said:
Through i wrote never, I also mentioned the one exception (you took the word "never" to literal), and I think I can call people out when they make a fake claim.

Anyway I couldn't find the most recent practice clips that show her doing a 4s/4lo, but i found some old ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6DUe7iqRS4 --- around 3:32 you will see her 4S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-IT72GWrWE ---- around 9:32 you will see another attempt to a 4S

You said "when I say never I mean never"... so even if I hadn't taken it literally, emphasizing it like that would make anyone take it as a literal statement of fact. Also, all of Mao's 4S attempts are downgraded. I'm not saying she'll never do it (since one should never say never) but I don't picture her capable of it, particularly since she probably was more capable of doing it when she was younger than now due to her ease of jumping having diminished. That being said, there's nobody I can picture trying the quad in Sochi, not just Mao. The 3A is impressive as it is.

mary01 · Jul 6, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
You said "when I say never I mean never"... so even if I hadn't taken it literally, emphasizing it like that would make anyone take it as a literal statement of fact. Also, all of Mao's 4S attempts are downgraded. I'm not saying she'll never do it (since one should never say never) but I don't picture her capable of it, particularly since she probably was more capable of doing it when she was younger than now due to her ease of jumping having diminished. That being said, there's nobody I can picture trying the quad in Sochi, not just Mao. The 3A is impressive as it is.

They were not downgraded, and they couldn't be downgraded since it's from practice clips. if those were attempted in competition I think it very well could have gotten ratified, afterall Miki could get her quad ratified, and to my eyes, Mao's attempt looks more rotated then most of Mikis attempt on the 4S.
Most importantly when a skater has been practicing this jump from a young age, the chance of gaining the jump later on, is higher compared to someone who at a young age never even attempted it in practice. overall I think the chances of Mao mastering and introducing a quad is higher due to the reasons I mentioned before and here, to sum it all up:

- Mao at a young age practiced the 4S and 4lo
- Mao is still doing a jump that requires three and a half rotation in the air
- she has good height, good air positioning, and her rotation is fast

of course that doesn't mean that I want her to attempt a quad, her layout is already very ambitious as it is, and an injury is the last thing I would want her to risk, but I still think that her chances of mastering a quad are higher due to the reasons I mentioned above.

The Quadruple Jump for the Ladies in Sochi

Krislite

Pepe Nero

gmyers

Krislite

Bluebonnet

spikydurian

mary01

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

gmyers

vera01

minze

mary01

ffionhanathomas

CanadianSkaterGuy

gmyers

mary01

minze

CanadianSkaterGuy

mary01

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