Czisny preparing for one last run at Olympic glory | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Czisny preparing for one last run at Olympic glory

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
LOL, she should just go out there and do a bunch of Double Lutzes. They are worth a good amount of points. Look at the base value for this layout:

2Lutz+2Loop
2Axel
2Lutz
----
2Lutz+2Toe+2Loop
2Axel+2Toe
2Lutz
2Lutz

24.7 in base value from the jumps. If she gets +1 GOE on them all, that is an extra 2.5 points.
9.7 in base value from spins (two Level 4 CCoSp and a Level 4 Layback). She should be able to get +2 on the combination spins and +3 on the Layback, so that's an extra 3.5 points.
5.3 in base value from footwork sequences (Level 3 step sequence + Choreography Sequence). Should be able to get +1 on the footwork and +2 on the choreography sequence (use those spirals girl!), so that's an extra 1.9 points.

Total Technical Score = 47.6
Program Components = 60? Shouldn't be hard to get at least this if she really performs. Can do a lot of transitions as well when you're just doing all double jumps. ^_^

Total Score = 107.6

That's a ticket to Nationals for sure. Give herself more time to train the Triples.

That's brilliant. Thanks for calculating this, Blades of Passion. I wouldn't recommend Czisny actually plan to do this (and I take it you suggest it at least in part humorously, no?), but I have been thinking that Czisny's programs this season should be designed to highlight her unique qualities and excellences, and focus less on jumping difficulty. I think she could justly win a bronze at Nationals with a 5-planned triple free skate, assuming it is executed reasonably well. She really doesn't need to aim for 6 or 7.

I think the question is really WHY Alissa only did doubles.

Did she do them because she couldn't do triples?

Or because she chose not to because a) she did not need them, and b) she did not want to risk aggravating her injury this early on, and decided to work herself up in time to harder content.

I have no idea which it is - I'm curious as to what it may be. If she is unable to compete triples, and continues to be unable - then that would be the end of it. But we don't know if that is the case. So, I suppose, we'll have to wait and see.

Thank you, LRK, for pointing out the alternative hypotheses. This board is full of Czisny detractors whose apparent bias against her causes them to assume the first hypothesis (before a) is obviously correct.

I think it's a bit premature to be judging what Alissa is capable of based on one competition at Regionals. If you were in her shoes and knew that you could advance without doing triples after having had a major injury, would you take the risk? Especially when the last time she came back from injury, she threw in all the marbles at a local competition that didn't matter one bit and ended up with an even worse injury? She very easily won by a large margin this time doing just doubles, and I think it's a smart approach to take to ease onself back into competition mode after having been away for awhile.

Yes, I think this is a very plausible explanation. Had been thinking much the same myself.

Short Program- “Consolation No. 3 in D Flat Major” by Franz Liszt

Just listened to this. It's really beautiful, and well-suited to Czisny's style. Eager to see her skate to it. I'm not familiar with this having been skated to before. I'm sure it has been, but not famously. (Or maybe I am just really ignorant.) Anyone know?

She did 3F-2T, 3Lo, 2A in the SP.

Where/when did Flatt do this? I must have missed something.
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
People are questioning if Alissa is still capable of landing triples or not. I think the that fact that she only planned her hardest triple says a lot. She probably felt that she needed to get the lutz attempts in the program out there and is most likely confident enough about the easier triples to add them later. She knew she didn't need them for Regionals and just went with the doubles to ease herself back into competition. It would be stupid for her coaches to make a statement that she is landing triples when she's not. And I'm sure they're not foolish enough to believe that she can coast onto the Olympic team with just doubles.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
For someone just easing her way back into competition, and knowing her strengths/weaknesses, it appears Team Czisny is employing the right strategy (so far).
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
People are questioning if Alissa is still capable of landing triples or not. I think the that fact that she only planned her hardest triple says a lot. She probably felt that she needed to get the lutz attempts in the program out there and is most likely confident enough about the easier triples to add them later. She knew she didn't need them for Regionals and just went with the doubles to ease herself back into competition.

This is true. She will absolutely need her Lutz to be competitive. It's good of her to be trying it at these competitions.

I still don't think she needs the Flip or Loop, though. With her health, it's such a big risk...and for minimal reward. Her 3Flip gets an edge call and frequently got < calls or had landing issues even when she was healthy. This is also the jump that she went down on hard and dislocated her hip. I see no point at all in her training this jump. A good 2Lz gets her 2.4 points and allows her to increase her speed and transitions in the program, which means better PCS. Her 3Loop was a consistent jump for her, but after a labrum tear? Probably not a good idea. And, again, that jump requires a lot of setup time for her so she's losing PCS by attempting it.

I gave a potential score for Alissa with all doubles, so here's a layout with just 3 Triples in total:

2Axel
3Lutz
FCCoSp4
2Lutz+2Loop
StSq3 (Level 4 if they can manage to make one that works with the program; that's the key)
-----
3Toe+2Toe+2Loop
2Axel+2Toe
CCoSp4
3Toe
ChSq
2Lutz
LSp4

Her score could go up 9 points on the tech with that layout (not even counting the possibility of Level 4 footwork sequence), which would put her total at 116.6. That's really not bad at all. And then you have to figure her PCS would also go up if she really performs and has a good program, because these Triples carefully spread throughout the program provide enough of a technical excitement. It's all about phasing the program into segments where there is a clear buildup for the Triples to make them stand out.

I could see Alissa hitting 122 in the LP (that would account for a PCS of 65.4), with just 3 Triples in total. She will need to do a great, clean SP to be taken seriously heading into the LP. It all depends on Alissa being able to deliver a truly excellent programs. Her team needs to get to work NOW with focusing on that gameplan. Training only two different triple jumps should certainly help with giving extra time and energy towards creating the heavenly programs and performances she will need to succeed.
 

MFarone

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Country
United-States
Where/when did Flatt do this? I must have missed something.

Rachael skated at a small club competition 2-3 August in Colorado called the Colorado Championships. She scored 56.09 in the SP and 87.37 in the FS. Here is a link to the results http://mhfsa.org/files/2013-Co-Champs-IJS-Results.pdf

As far as I know protocols are not available. I read about Rachael's SP jumps on another board, but don't remember where - sorry.

Also, when TSL interviewed Yuka Sato they asked her about Alissa's training. I realize that Yuka is not Alissa's primary coach (Jason is) but she responded that Alissa is working on triples, but when she has pain they have to back off on the training. I got the impression that training isn't "getting better" everyday -- it's more like one step forward two steps back. I have no idea whether she planned triples or doubles at Regionals. She will need triples at Sectionals and who knows if she will be able to do them on the day she needs to or whether she will have too much pain.

I like Alissa and Rachael a lot. They are following their dream and I wish them the very best.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
If Alissa is still having pain almost a year after surgery that is not a good sign. Michelle Kwan was able to skate pain free a year after her surgery for a torn labrum and she had gotten most of her triples back. At that point she had to make a decision about returning to competition, but she decided instead to continue with her education and went on to graduate school.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I agree with chuckm if Alissa is still in pain, if she isn't performing triples really in October in competitions this is not a good sign. This is not only a physical issue but mental and it appeared Alissa who had all the makings of a champion already had issues mentally and with the jumps in particular. All this "media glossing" or spinning and trying to make everything positive by her handlers or just the way we handle things in life can't hide the truth - it is hard to accomplish things like a triple lutz or whatever if physically and mentally you are unable or even have a doubt. It is like trying a triple axel and they give you a 10lb weight - just another thing to throw your precarious landing off. You have to go into a competition or jump or spin with 100percent confidence your body and mind will hold up otherwise that doubt or that mental issue is like an albatross around your neck. Spin spin spin but it is concerning for Alissa and she may not express it to the world one can only logically deduce she must have some doubts - she wouldn't be human and probably more pain or physical concern that she lets on. Of course, we, I wish her well but this is an uphill battle. I remember reading about Jill Trenary and while it was never explicitly stated but more than her injury (minor to most) when she retired it seemed it was more mental because she had it all jumps, spins and style. There was a certain polish and as consistent as yamaguchi became she wasn't so much in the early 90s (Yamaguchi if you look at her performance while gracefull never had that command of Trenary, Kerrigan, Kwan, even Bobeck - just something wasn't there but I am not sure body lines?) Ihope Alissa can truly skate witht eh freedom and confidence not somuch for winning but for her self.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
A good 2Lz gets her 2.4 points and allows her to increase her speed and transitions in the program, which means better PCS.

Theoretically this is true, but I am not sure that the judges would award higher PCS for easier technical content, even when the transitions and speed have improved.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I am just no so sure we should be promoting a tripleless program and I am not sure the judges will hold it up - it is like the chicken and egg question will they or should they give the pcs if more difficult ransition and choreography but in lieu of harder jumps. And we aren't talking just little technical differences there is a huge difference between a triple and a double. I hope the poster is right that Alissa must be so confident about her easier triples that she is only trying the lutz - but I sadly think that is wishful thinking.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
This is true. She will absolutely need her Lutz to be competitive. It's good of her to be trying it at these competitions.

I still don't think she needs the Flip or Loop, though. With her health, it's such a big risk...and for minimal reward. Her 3Flip gets an edge call and frequently got < calls or had landing issues even when she was healthy. This is also the jump that she went down on hard and dislocated her hip. I see no point at all in her training this jump. A good 2Lz gets her 2.4 points and allows her to increase her speed and transitions in the program, which means better PCS. Her 3Loop was a consistent jump for her, but after a labrum tear? Probably not a good idea. And, again, that jump requires a lot of setup time for her so she's losing PCS by attempting it.

I gave a potential score for Alissa with all doubles, so here's a layout with just 3 Triples in total:

2Axel
3Lutz
FCoSp4
2Lutz+2Loop
StSq3 (Level 4 if they can manage to make one that works with the program; that's the key)
-----
3Toe+2Toe+2Loop
2Axel+2Toe
CCoSp4
3Toe
ChSq
2Lutz
LSp4

Her score could go up 9 points on the tech with that layout (not even counting the possible of Level 4 footwork sequence), which would put her total at 116.6. That's really not bad at all. And then you have to figure her PCS would also go up if she really performs and has a good program, because these Triples carefully spread throughout the program provide enough of a technical excitement. It's all about phasing the program into segments where there is a clear buildup for the Triples to make them stand out.

I could see Alissa hitting 122 in the LP (that would account for a PCS of 65.4), with just 3 Triples in total. She will need to do a great, clean SP to be taken seriously heading into the LP. It all depends on Alissa being able to deliver a truly excellent programs. Her team needs to get to work NOW with focusing on that gameplan. Training only two different triple jumps should certainly help with giving extra time and energy towards creating the heavenly programs and performances she will need to succeed.

If Alissa did a 3 triple LP at Nationals and scored 122 points and made the Olympic team there would be an uproar. Especially if other skaters landed many more triples.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I am just no so sure we should be promoting a tripleless program and I am not sure the judges will hold it up - it is like the chicken and egg question will they or should they give the pcs if more difficult ransition and choreography but in lieu of harder jumps.

As an example, Yuna often gets the highest TR scores, although she usually doesn't have the most (but certainly top 5 at least). Her TR scores rise along with her TES and other PCS scores.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
If Alissa did a 3 triple LP at Nationals and scored 122 points and made the Olympic team there would be an uproar. Especially if other skaters landed many more triples.

I don't think so. If she gets the score and makes the team it will be because she gave great performances and skated cleanly. Almost nobody will care about someone who landed 5 Triples but was completely boring (which is sadly the track that Christina Gao seems to be on, if she can even get the jumps together for Nationals). I think it's great that someone can heavily depend on their non-jump elements and performance ability. There is nothing wrong with Alissa being better in those areas than everyone else and getting rewarded for it.

Alissa won 2009 Nationals with a 3 triple LP, btw. She can get 3rd place in 2014 with a 3-triple program.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Alissa won 2009 Nationals with a 3 triple LP, btw. She can get 3rd place in 2014 with a 3-triple program.

Alissa scored 112 and change for that 3-triple FS back in 2009. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold and Courtney Hicks are all capable of scoring over 120 for their FSs and the Christina Gao you dismiss so lightly scored 117.54 for her FS at 2013 Nationals. Then there is Polina Edmunds, who has been scoring 113+ with junior programs (worth 116 with the added footwork sequence). Doesn't look to me as if Alissa can make top 3 with 112 points.

Also, Alissa was third in the FS in 2009 and won based on winning the SP by 5.56 points over 2nd place Rachael Flatt. Wagner and Flatt beat Alissa in the FS, but Alissa edged Rachael in the FS by 4 points to win 2009 Nationals. Alissa didn't win the SP in 2011 (Nagasu) or 2012 (Zawadzki). She won 2011 Nationals by winning the FS, and the 2010-2011 season proved to be her best ever, with a 5th place finish at Worlds.

It doesn't seem as if Alissa could possibly get an edge by winning the SP in her current condition, as so many US ladies are doing 3/3s in their SPs, and many more are doing 3/3s in their FS as well. I agree that Alissa placing 3rd with a 3-triple FS and a bunch of doubles when many ladies are completing 6 and 7 triple free skates would cause an uproar. It just isn't going to happen.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Alissa scored 112 and change for that 3-triple FS back in 2009. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold and Courtney Hicks are all capable of scoring over 120 for their FSs and the Christina Gao you dismiss so lightly scored 117.54 for her FS at 2013 Nationals. Then there is Polina Edmunds, who has been scoring 113+ with junior programs (worth 116 with the added footwork sequence). Doesn't look to me as if Alissa can make top 3 with 112 points.



In your dreams. At this point, Alissa doesn't have even one triple, and she still has to get through Sectionals.


Agreed. Kudos to her for trying to come back, but there's nothing that would lead me to believe Alissa has a shot at this point. What's a bit unfair is that skaters who are actually completing technical content will probably be denied trips to Nationals, but hopefully Alissa can actually skate a program that's as technically sound as it is artistically sound. It's a huge uphill battle for her right now.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Alissa scored 112 and change for that 3-triple FS back in 2009.

Yes, so now she can get 122 when she actually builds the program around 3-triple content instead of falling on an underrotated 3Lutz in the second half of her program, not doing a 3-jump combo, etc.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
She has already underrotated and fallen on the only 3z she tried. She couldn't break 100 with all doubles, so adding another 10-12 points for triples doesn't add up to 122.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I AM seeing the big picture. I am seeing a 26-year-old with a serious injury who has not recovered as quickly as she had hoped. If she had another year to get herself in competition shape, then your scenario could be in the realm of possibility. That is what Alissa wants to do, but it is not what her battered body is able to do. I, for one, do not want to see her attempt that first triple, go down on the ice and be unable to get up. No one wants to see that.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Yes, we can see the big picture and it isn't pretty. (Sorry a bit of sarcasm) I think in skating we don't want all jumps but we also really don't want mainly spins and doubles well really don't cut it) Is this the direction we want Will American girls with no triples start focussing on spins and footwork and artistry and move to other countries where they can qualify for world's and maybe olympics - so we have tonnes of tripleless girls. Maybe dorothy hamill can skate again? Bring back Peggy Fleming. What about the protopopovs? The well rounded skater is the goal; and I guess I am making a judgment call but tripleless seems to help further that our beloved skating is not a sport. There is show skating for that or fun events. Now we have to just hope Alissa has some triples back. She sort of reminds me of Sasha Cohen who could get some big scores even without landed triples but I just find the current example of Alissa skating as lacking a little too much on the jump though one can see how tes wise she can still rack up some points and with pcs do fairly well. If so many support Alissa in her "route" then there should be a lot less complaints about Chan (oh no here comes another war) and others who rely on quality skating.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Glad to see that Alissa Czisny is included in taralipinski's Instagram photos that seem to be documenting/teasing TL's pre-Sochi interviews with those from Detroit Skating Club.

TL's shoot schedule presumably was timed so that she can remain in Detroit through this week's Skate America.
 
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