At the time, I was excited that S/P won, and I loved their Love Story program. But as time has gone on (and I've learned so much from you guys), I see why so many people preferred Bereshnaya and Sikharulidze. I too have the book The Second Mark, and I should reread it now that I have all this new understanding. Also, it will be interesting to reread it now that we can see what kinds of skaters Shen and Zhao turned out to be. In 2002 they were not yet the refined, emotionally open skaters they later became, especially in comparison to Elena and Anton.
The decision that boiled your blood
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I agree! That was the real, beautiful pair skating. ( I don't like the COP especially in pair skating)
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I remember my TV commentators said about Sh/Zh they aren't artistry..and yes, I saw it, I agreed with them in that time.
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Sorry if anyone already brought this up but my biggest pet peeve is Johnny getting 6th at the Olympics. He had a powerful, clean ( yes I know he had a slight wobble on a spin that Sandra seemed to think was the end of the world) and complete program. He should at least AT LEAST won the bronze.
Someone brought up the infamous Michelle Tara 98 Olympics. It has taken me many, many years to get over the sting of that shocking night. There were several factors that played into that result; Michelle skated first in the group. Tara had 2 3/3's , Tara's skating that night, albeit not on the same level as Michelle's was sparky and exuberant whereas Michelle who skated on a much more mature level was a little cautious. This is coming from a life long Michelle fan. I wanted Michelle to have that gold so bad I couldn't even watch her skate, it was such a shocking blow that took me years to even come to terms with.
Tara has said in an interview that she had a lot of respect for Michelle and thinks Michelle is one of the greatest skaters ever. She knows.
Figure skating is a rough sport even for us fans who have to put up with unfair judging and certain skaters being held up. This is why I think skating doesn't have a big audience anymore, people get frustrated with the scoring.
Someone brought up the infamous Michelle Tara 98 Olympics. It has taken me many, many years to get over the sting of that shocking night. There were several factors that played into that result; Michelle skated first in the group. Tara had 2 3/3's , Tara's skating that night, albeit not on the same level as Michelle's was sparky and exuberant whereas Michelle who skated on a much more mature level was a little cautious. This is coming from a life long Michelle fan. I wanted Michelle to have that gold so bad I couldn't even watch her skate, it was such a shocking blow that took me years to even come to terms with.
Tara has said in an interview that she had a lot of respect for Michelle and thinks Michelle is one of the greatest skaters ever. She knows.
Figure skating is a rough sport even for us fans who have to put up with unfair judging and certain skaters being held up. This is why I think skating doesn't have a big audience anymore, people get frustrated with the scoring.
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^Johnny got screwed a few times pretty royally, also in the nationals with the "tie" with Evan. He should have been the clear winner that day to me. I dunno about bronze at those Olys, I'd have to review the event, but overall I do think Johnny should have had more hardware than he does. Sigh.
Re: Michelle-Tara, I was always on the fence/well, really I should say kind of waffled a bit, but mostly thought Michelle was the winner. I didn't see it the night of, but at my rink the next day it was all the talk, and plenty of people felt Tara really pulled it off with that extra sparkle. When I watched it after my parents sent me a recorded tape (ahh, the old days of VHS) of the coverage, I still felt Michelle should have won but could accept Tara. I've watched those two programs many times since, and I am one that isn't so sure Michelle looked markedly different that night from her Nationals performance of the same program. But I do think Tara's performances were nice. Still, all in all, Michelle really should be an OGM from Nagano. PS: Just watched both LP's again. Michelle all the way. This time I didn't think it was even close.
Re: Michelle-Tara, I was always on the fence/well, really I should say kind of waffled a bit, but mostly thought Michelle was the winner. I didn't see it the night of, but at my rink the next day it was all the talk, and plenty of people felt Tara really pulled it off with that extra sparkle. When I watched it after my parents sent me a recorded tape (ahh, the old days of VHS) of the coverage, I still felt Michelle should have won but could accept Tara. I've watched those two programs many times since, and I am one that isn't so sure Michelle looked markedly different that night from her Nationals performance of the same program. But I do think Tara's performances were nice. Still, all in all, Michelle really should be an OGM from Nagano. PS: Just watched both LP's again. Michelle all the way. This time I didn't think it was even close.
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Yes, I do ultimately believe Michelle should have won, even without a 3/3. Michelle is on another level. Here is the breakdown: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_1998_Winter_Olympics#Full_Results_2
The numbers were so close.
With Johnny, yes you are right about the 'tie' with Evan, Johnny should have been first. Frustrating.
The numbers were so close.
With Johnny, yes you are right about the 'tie' with Evan, Johnny should have been first. Frustrating.
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I always used to get annoyed at Tara's teeny jumps, they never looked they were over 2 inches off the ice.....but I guess the judges just couldn't overlook her exuberance that night.
And as for Johnny 2010 Olympics, it took me a while to get over 6th place; I feel he should have been at least 4th. Very disappointing result in that he couldn't even do the gala. But I suppose Patrick Chan had to be given his place in the gala.....Canadian soil and all. And Stefan's wonky landings did not deserve him 4th place. Still boils my blood though!
And as for Johnny 2010 Olympics, it took me a while to get over 6th place; I feel he should have been at least 4th. Very disappointing result in that he couldn't even do the gala. But I suppose Patrick Chan had to be given his place in the gala.....Canadian soil and all. And Stefan's wonky landings did not deserve him 4th place. Still boils my blood though!
Patrick Chan would have been invited to be in the gala even if he had placed lower than 5th. Carolina Kostner skated in the 2006 Olympics gala though she placed 9th in the competition.
I wonder whether the judges had second thoughts in later years. I know that at least one of the 1994 judges felt differently about Oksana's win later on, after viewing the tape again. (Interestingly, Jan Hoffmann, who supported Oksana in 1994, decided in Michelle's favor in 1998.)
With Michelle becoming who she did, it's hard to imagine the judges didn't revisit their decision in later years. On the other hand, it's a performance sport and it's partly about how much you can sweep the audiences and judges away in THAT moment, which Tara did. Tara performed better than she ever had. I like what Scott said once: The difference was between someone who went for gold and the other trying to protect the gold. I think what Tara did was just too much for the judges to ignore and I always defend her win. I'll always vastly prefer Michelle's style. But to me, small jumps and all, Tara's performance was quintessential Olympics that night. She competed her heart out. She went to WIN. (And yet looked in control) That's the Olympics.
(P.S., Doris thank you for revisiting the 2001 pairs! It was not a competition I was too familiar with and I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. After watching that, I watched S/P's Olympic effort and I thought it was rather improved in terms of content.)
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I am a huge Michelle fan (the skater-I'm not sure I know what she is doing in DC and am disappointed in her political leanings)-I'll get slammed for my honesty. But I recall a very pc Yama say it could have gone either way, and it is true.
What makes this difficult I think for us skate fans is that there were three stellar performances that night. One could make a case for Lu Chen. Lulu was stunning. Best Ladies podium I recall, even counting Vancouver which was pretty amazing technically and emotionally.
Lyra is far and away the program we Kwan fans choose as her most interesting and even inspired. I love it. I also love the beginning Kwan's first WCG, but felt the WCG belonged to Lulu by a fraction. Tara put down two techn ically demanding skates and she really was very mature. I was aggravated looking at the child's body, but then astounded at her hands and arms. She won based on her jumps-my god - the first lady to land a 3loop-3loop in oly copmp. and then to pull of the 3 half loop 3 at then near end.
It doesn't matter, and we skating fans were lucky at the outcome, as Tara's hip demanded retirement, and MK was just getting going. I am really glad she lost the gold cuz she stayed in. Some of her best skates were in pro-ams, we got to see everything she could do. When we compare her to Mao at her prime of 16 or YuNa Kim, we see many people who beat her then and surpassed her jumps, but Lyra was perfect at Nationals and at Olympics. I absolutely don't see a MK who held back. Both performances were for the ages.
I have watched many times both skates and agree with the decision, but I wanted gold for all 3 ladies that night. Isn't it wonderful that Kwan has this body of work to look back on? I'm sad we don't have much for Tara outside of wonderful SOI skates. And Sara was just blossoming. Who knows what we missed there.
When I think of skaters who have several great skates to review, MK is in a handful of amazing skater, Sonja Henie, Janet Lynn, Midori Ito, Mao Asada, YuNa kim, Tara Lipinski, all for different reasons. Our body of work thread gave the nod to MK, just as Kurt Browning is the penultimate male skater for me.
Lyra Angelica was the right music, the right choreo, the right skater and will be an iconic program no matter what else gets laid down. So for those who felt MK would have gotten 6.0's had she skated last, well, it might have been her last professional skate. I have to say SOTBS was great and she skated her last great program to Tosca. She is so lucky. As Bezsic said, success isn't always defined by an OGM. Don't feel bad Kwan fans. They were both so talented, I would have been happy with any order of podium. That night was pure magic. I wonder if KKonas was there in person -perhaps she already commented. MK was perfect that night. Frank told her she skated great, but Tara skated better. I am not sure I agree with that comment. They were just very different skaters at that age, and while I think Tara was amazing, Kwan was simply not of this world.
Thank God for youtube to relive the few truly great moments without searching thru bins of VHS!
What makes this difficult I think for us skate fans is that there were three stellar performances that night. One could make a case for Lu Chen. Lulu was stunning. Best Ladies podium I recall, even counting Vancouver which was pretty amazing technically and emotionally.
Lyra is far and away the program we Kwan fans choose as her most interesting and even inspired. I love it. I also love the beginning Kwan's first WCG, but felt the WCG belonged to Lulu by a fraction. Tara put down two techn ically demanding skates and she really was very mature. I was aggravated looking at the child's body, but then astounded at her hands and arms. She won based on her jumps-my god - the first lady to land a 3loop-3loop in oly copmp. and then to pull of the 3 half loop 3 at then near end.
It doesn't matter, and we skating fans were lucky at the outcome, as Tara's hip demanded retirement, and MK was just getting going. I am really glad she lost the gold cuz she stayed in. Some of her best skates were in pro-ams, we got to see everything she could do. When we compare her to Mao at her prime of 16 or YuNa Kim, we see many people who beat her then and surpassed her jumps, but Lyra was perfect at Nationals and at Olympics. I absolutely don't see a MK who held back. Both performances were for the ages.
I have watched many times both skates and agree with the decision, but I wanted gold for all 3 ladies that night. Isn't it wonderful that Kwan has this body of work to look back on? I'm sad we don't have much for Tara outside of wonderful SOI skates. And Sara was just blossoming. Who knows what we missed there.
When I think of skaters who have several great skates to review, MK is in a handful of amazing skater, Sonja Henie, Janet Lynn, Midori Ito, Mao Asada, YuNa kim, Tara Lipinski, all for different reasons. Our body of work thread gave the nod to MK, just as Kurt Browning is the penultimate male skater for me.
Lyra Angelica was the right music, the right choreo, the right skater and will be an iconic program no matter what else gets laid down. So for those who felt MK would have gotten 6.0's had she skated last, well, it might have been her last professional skate. I have to say SOTBS was great and she skated her last great program to Tosca. She is so lucky. As Bezsic said, success isn't always defined by an OGM. Don't feel bad Kwan fans. They were both so talented, I would have been happy with any order of podium. That night was pure magic. I wonder if KKonas was there in person -perhaps she already commented. MK was perfect that night. Frank told her she skated great, but Tara skated better. I am not sure I agree with that comment. They were just very different skaters at that age, and while I think Tara was amazing, Kwan was simply not of this world.
Thank God for youtube to relive the few truly great moments without searching thru bins of VHS!
I'm a figure skating fan since around 2011 so I look differently at many of those controversial wins and that's probably why they don't bother me that much. There's one competition that boiled my blood and it's 2013 US nationals and the way they treated Caroline and a few others at that competition. It boils my blood mainly because I wanted Caroline so badly to improve even more after her 4th place finish last year and the 3rd place at 4cc yet she finished so low once again 
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As for 2002 Olympics it's not the result that bothers me the most (though B/S were the only winners for me) but the fact that social media, television, mainly commentators were the ones that disagreed so much it forced people to do all these investigations and in the end change the whole scoring system. I really disliked the way american commentators said that S/P should've won, it was unecessary.
. As for 2002 Olympics it's not the result that bothers me the most (though B/S were the only winners for me) but the fact that social media, television, mainly commentators were the ones that disagreed so much it forced people to do all these investigations and in the end change the whole scoring system. I really disliked the way american commentators said that S/P should've won, it was unecessary.
Of course he went for Kwan, too as he supports artists. LOL, on the other hand Lipinski was very lucky to skate after Bonaly...
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The Salt Lake LP did not bother me nearly as much as 2001 Worlds
B&S LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4S7c9s56A4
S&P LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsAkikAOPUk
It didn't bother me that B&S won, because I still felt they had been thoroughly rooked in 2001. It didn't bother me that S&P got a second gold, because the 2002 version of B&S had more errors than the 2001-it was not just Anton's 2A-the landings on both throw jumps were a bit off, the landing on the 3t wasn't butter smooth as it had been the previous year, and the 3tw was still a bit crashy. OTOH, S&P's Love Story is simply not as empty and lifeless as their Tristan and Isolde.
However, B&S's SP was just beyond beautiful and perhaps the best short program I have ever seen.
The only thing that annoyed me was the embarrassing politicization of the event.
B&S LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4S7c9s56A4
S&P LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsAkikAOPUk
It didn't bother me that B&S won, because I still felt they had been thoroughly rooked in 2001. It didn't bother me that S&P got a second gold, because the 2002 version of B&S had more errors than the 2001-it was not just Anton's 2A-the landings on both throw jumps were a bit off, the landing on the 3t wasn't butter smooth as it had been the previous year, and the 3tw was still a bit crashy. OTOH, S&P's Love Story is simply not as empty and lifeless as their Tristan and Isolde.
However, B&S's SP was just beyond beautiful and perhaps the best short program I have ever seen.
The only thing that annoyed me was the embarrassing politicization of the event.
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These numbers seem to be all wrong. According to this chart, in the short program the judges from Germany, USA, and Poland all ranked both skaters second and did not give a first place ordinal, while France ranked both skaters first.
In the long, Tara got 8 first place ordinals (out of 9), while Michelle got 3, for total of 11 out of 9. Germany, USA and Poland gave both skaters first place and France gave both skaters second place. Hungary, Austria, Germany, USA, Russia, and Poland gave both skaters exactly the same first marks and second marks, which was not allowed by the judging rules.
I think some of the columns are transposed, or something.
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If you know what Michelle's political leanings are, you are the only person in the world who does.
The only thing Michelle has ever said in public about politics is, "I'm a skater, not a politician." Michelle has represented the United States as a good will ambassador under the aegis of the State Department in both the Bush and Obama administrations. Her stump speech says things like, try your hardest, if you fall down get back up, follow your dream, etc.
The only thing we know for sure is that she married into the most politically prominent Democratic family in Rhode Island. However, her husband is more interested in education, especially foreign language education, than in partisan politics.
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That's interesting Mathman.
My recollection is that in the LP, it was a 7-2 split for Tara... or maybe it was 6-3?
I do remember that it wasn't one of those 5-4 decisions; in other words, not particularly close. I'm a big fan of Michelle's, but I thought Tara deserved the win on that night.
I also agree with Doris regarding B/S Olympic short program. It is the finest short program I've ever seen. It was magnificent.
My initial views were that the Canadians won the long, but having reviewed the programs over and over... I don't think so now.
Yes, there was a huge outcry on social media and American television over the result, but the driving force behind the award of the additional gold medal was the French judge saying she had felt pressured by her Fed to support the Russians. Although later recanted... sort of... the damage was done. The whole situation was a mess.
Perversely, a pairs event was the catalyst for CoP, and I think pairs skating has suffered the most under it.
My recollection is that in the LP, it was a 7-2 split for Tara... or maybe it was 6-3?
I do remember that it wasn't one of those 5-4 decisions; in other words, not particularly close. I'm a big fan of Michelle's, but I thought Tara deserved the win on that night.
I also agree with Doris regarding B/S Olympic short program. It is the finest short program I've ever seen. It was magnificent.
My initial views were that the Canadians won the long, but having reviewed the programs over and over... I don't think so now.
Yes, there was a huge outcry on social media and American television over the result, but the driving force behind the award of the additional gold medal was the French judge saying she had felt pressured by her Fed to support the Russians. Although later recanted... sort of... the damage was done. The whole situation was a mess.
Perversely, a pairs event was the catalyst for CoP, and I think pairs skating has suffered the most under it.
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Absolutely Torvill and Dean losing the gold in the '94 Olympics, which, I just have to say, is discussed in great detail in my new novel, Abigail Phelps, which is available for Kindle on Amazon worldwide. But anyway, the Lillehammer robbery was the most ridiculous decision in figure skating history. In my opinion.
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I'm pretty sure it was 6-3.
You are so right about this, and it is indeed ironic, and sad for the dedicated pairs fans among us.
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MM, maybe someone has fixed the Wikipedia chart since your post. When I looked at it just now, the numbers do make sense.
- For the SP, it shows that Kwan received 8 out of 9 first-place ordinals, vs. 1 for Lipinski. Only France placed TL first and MK second.
- For the FS, Lipinski received 6 out of 9, vs. 3 for Kwan. None of the marks from a single judge are identical for the two skaters.
This official Olympic page also says TL won 6-3 in the FS:
Kwan led after the short programme, but Lipinski's exuberant long programme won her the first place votes of six of the nine judges and she edged ahead to take the gold medal.
http://www.olympic.org/tara-lipinski
http://www.olympic.org/tara-lipinski
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