Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

spikydurian said:

Just because Blue questions whether homosexuality is a question of choice or genetic, and supports the view that marriage is sacred between a man and woman, does not make Blue homophobic. Did Blue advocate violence against those who do not conform to her traditional views of gender? Why can’t she question the views of others without being branded homophobic? Why must we take political correctness to the extreme? Is it wrong to adopt ideas slowly and at one’s pace? I fail to see why branding anyone who take a traditional and cautious approach homophobic is going to make that person change his/her outlook. We are all brought up in different environment. Don’t expect everyone to think alike.

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I think Blue is going beyond questioning homosexuality as a choice/genetic or saying she thinks marriage should be between a man and woman (even though the inability to get married would disenfranchise many LGBT couples essentially making them second-class citizens).

She's said "good on Russia!" which essentially means she condones these severely homophobic laws that Putin has implemented; worse, like others who are drinking the Kool-Aid, she thinks it's actually protecting children when it's really just a wide-scale effort to demonize and disenfranchise LGBT people.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

To me this sounds like you're confused about why posters can only express homophobic-phobic views -- which pretty much implies that you think people should be allowed to express homophobic views. If you meant differently, feel free to clarify, but it seems like you were complaining about why people aren't allowed to express intolerant opinions. The "different view" point I was trying to make was in response to those spewing discriminatory remarks and saying it isn't bigotry but merely expressing opinion: if you, sky_fly and whoever are condoning homophobia and presenting your homophobic views as "political discussion" it would be no different than discriminating against other minorities and saying "I'm merely just stating my racist/anti-Semitic/misogynistic opinion".



If you're going to bring up the Constitution, you also have to bring up the fact that the Constitution has been wrong... otherwise the US would still condone slavery and a slew of other atrocities. There was a time in the US' history that coloured people wouldn't be allowed to use the same bathrooms as whites, because of a warped belief that blacks carried different diseases and that they were doing "what they believe is right for their children!"

The only propaganda that is being spread is to people who think Putin is protecting children. As mentioned before, the country is removing children from LGBT families, and LGBT parents of children can no longer express that it's okay to love each other without being persecuted for it with fines or imprisonment. Exactly who or what are you trying to protect? Russia, stop using children as a scapegoat for your bigotry. It's totally lame, and only a select few (the ones you oppress, and those who are homophobic themselves) would ever believe that tripe.

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Is it too much to ask you not to dramatically elevate and exaggerate the truth?

Okay, exactly how did you want your statement "Is this forum allowed only one side of political views? Are posters only allowed to express homophobic-phobic views here?" to be perceived?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Okay, exactly how did you want your statement "Is this forum allowed only one side of political views? Are posters only allowed to express homophobic-phobic views here?" to be perceived?

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What I said was what I meant in response to another poster's asking for the restrictions on the opposite views.

Okay, Blue I understood you to say that you are in favor of jailing and deporting gay people (as the Russians have just passe4d a law to do). , and in favor of removing the children of gay parents from their homes, again as the Russians are doing.

That is different that being against same sex marriage.

Did I understand you correctly?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

She's said "good on Russia!" which essentially means she condones these severely homophobic laws that Putin has implemented; worse, like others who are drinking the Kool-Aid, she thinks it's actually protecting children when it's really just a wide-scale effort to demonize and disenfranchise LGBT people.

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Probably some people need to drink cool-aid, like you said. Mark this: The vast majority of Russian people are in favor of this law. Why should they change it just because some people of western power house hate it?! It is focusing on children, not YOU, if you are able to look a little bit further than yourself.

Yes, I shared some of the beliefs of majority Russian people. I said good on them because they dared to stand up to defend their traditional moral values, which is Orthodox Christianity, against western popular culture. Is that a crime? The law itself does not promote violence. It's just protects, not attacks. No doubt the birth of this law is the result of LGBT's aggressive global push.

You are showing intolerance - the very thing you brand yourself against, or the word is only allowed to be applied to the people sitting in the opposite side of yours?

dorispulaski said:

Okay, Blue I understood you to say that you are in favor of jailing and deporting gay people (as the Russians have just passe4d a law to do). , and in favor of removing the children of gay parents from their homes, again as the Russians are doing.

That is different that being against same sex marriage.

Did I understand you correctly?

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No, you are wrong.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Unfortunately, Russia has 100 more years to go, and this is why the world needs to challenge this madness -- perhaps it's futile, but it's better than silence.

There WILL be an incident, or many incidents, during the Olympics. There will be athletes who will talk about LGBT rights... this pot has already boiled over (with many months to go) and Putin's delusional if he thinks he can suppress it.

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the world, you mean the woestern world right ?
more than half of he world is still indefferent to LGBT lifestyle, I gave you the regions earlier
so what if it doesnt work, try to drop bombs or strike drones for the sake of democracy
or invade a country for the sake of legalization of gay marriage, lol
change will come in time without the use of external forces

you are ignorant and holds a supermacist cultural view
understand diffrerent countries have different perspective
fact is an average russian will tell you liberal ideas is a threat to moral values
and is a western alien idea.

I am not endorsing their views but mere pointing out
they ahve their own cultural perspective

spikydurian said:

Just because Blue questions whether homosexuality is a question of choice or genetic, and supports the view that marriage is sacred between a man and woman, does not make Blue homophobic. Did Blue advocate violence against those who do not conform to her traditional views of gender? Why can’t she question the views of others without being branded homophobic? Why must we take political correctness to the extreme? Is it wrong to adopt ideas slowly and at one’s pace? I fail to see why branding anyone who take a traditional and cautious approach homophobic is going to make that person change his/her outlook. We are all brought up in different environment. Don’t expect everyone to think alike.

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apparently the Canadianskater is the one drinking the kool-aid
who doesnt know anything about other cultures probably stuck in the basement nor has traveleld the World
His View = World view

I don't want LGBT people do propaganda among underage children. I think it is a crime!
99.9% of the Russians are agree with me.
I just realized how arrogant western LGBT people are.:disagree:

Bluebonnet said:

Probably some people need to drink cool-aid, like you said. Mark this: The vast majority of Russian people are in favor of this law. Why should they change it just because some people of western power house hate it?! It is focusing on children, not YOU, if you are able to look a little bit further than yourself.

Yes, I shared some of the beliefs of majority Russian people. I said good on them because they dared to stand up to defend their traditional moral values, which is Orthodox Christianity, against western popular culture. Is that a crime? The law itself does not promote violence. It's just protects, not attacks. No doubt the birth of this law is the result of LGBT's aggressive global push.
You are showing intolerance - the very thing you said you are against, or it only allowed to be applied to the people sitting in the opposite side of yours?

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Yes, you are right. When global LGBT push was done last couple of years, Russian said: enough is enough!

what I dont get though is the western worlds obsession with installing LGBT rights, marriage agenda and adoption only in Russia :scratch:

why not make a push in other countries like Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, India even Poland etc.

sky_fly20 said:

what I dont get though is the western worlds obsession with installing LGBT rights, marriage agenda and adoption only in Russia :scratch:

why not make a push in other countries like Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, India even Poland etc.

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It is not about a marriage agenda. We know Russia will continue to discriminate against LGBT people getting married. We are not asking for Russia to adopt same-sex marriage... that will only happen ages from now, if ever. All we are asking for is that people are not incriminated for loving who they love and being who they are. It's not an agenda asking that people don't discriminate. It's not an agenda asking that LGBT parents in Russia don't have their kids taken away from them, or are thrown in jail, or people can beat their faces in or torture them for being gay with no consequences. Saying "I am gay" in Russia should not merit a fine or jail time. It is not an agenda asking that a group of citizens be treated with dignity and freedom from persecution (and there is a push in countries such as the ones you mentioned).

Somebody explain to me how this protects children, as that seems to be the overwhelming "justification" for this discrimination. How does removing a child from its parents protect it?

Sexuality is not a choice... it is something people are inherently pre-disposed to. And they are getting persecuted and treated like second-class citizens because of something that is part of them that they can't change (nor should they). BlueBonnet, when did you make the choice to be straight?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

BlueBonnet, when did you make the choice to be straight?

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That's human nature. The very reason you could come to this world. When did you make the choice to be gay?



If you have read my previous posts, I have stated clearly my position. I didn't mean to offend all gay people. I just want to ask the same question the way you ask me. And let you know that I am not afraid of you.

Bluebonnet said:

When did you make the choice to be gay?

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That's exactly my point... it was never a choice, it's something that has been a part of me for as long as I can remember. I have straight parents, I never knew any gay people as a kid, or was aware of gay role models, but my attraction was always there. There was no "propaganda" that was telling me that I should be gay instead of straight... in fact there was greater pressure/bullying/etc. if you did happen to not identify as straight. Nobody has to "come out" of the straight closet.

If you don't like gay people, then that's on you and it's your opinion. But when you start removing kids from families, when you condone violence against gays by not arresting those who harm them, when you throw people in jail or fine them simply for acknowledging that it is fine if they are gay, that's when it becomes an issue that is worth fighting for. Nobody is going to Texas and expecting gay marriage, but if gays in Texas were having their kids taken away or were thrown in jail for saying they are gay or holding their partner's hand, I can bet you that there would be an outcry.

It is absolutely ironic to suggest that there is some gay agenda in Russia, when it's painfully obvious that there is an anti-gay agenda. Using the protection of children as a scapegoat is disgusting -- and I still have yet to hear how these laws protect them.

And sky_fly should stop deflecting the discussion to why there isn't a push in the Middle East and other countries, when the obvious answer is that there is, but right now the focus is on Russia, and for the purposes of this discussion, how it affects the Olympics. Putin passed these laws recently and a huge worldly event that is the Olympics are coming up which is why there is a focus on that. When the kill-the-gays bill came out in Uganda there was an outcry at that time as well. In countries that have a long way to go in terms of acceptance and non-discrimination, we're not expecting gay marriage -- we're expecting that LGBT people will be treated with dignity and have their basic human rights upheld.

If a kid in Russia asks an LGBT person "Is is okay that you are gay?" or "Are you happy being in a relationship with a member of the same sex?" what is the LGBT person supposed to say? "The answer is yes, but the law requires me to say no."

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

And sky_fly should stop deflecting the discussion to why there isn't a push in the Middle East and other countries, when the obvious answer is that there is, but right now the focus is on Russia, and for the purposes of this discussion, how it affects the Olympics. Putin passed these laws recently and a huge worldly event that is the Olympics are coming up which is why there is a focus on that. When the kill-the-gays bill came out in Uganda there was an outcry at that time as well. In countries that have a long way to go in terms of acceptance and non-discrimination, we're not expecting gay marriage -- we're expecting that LGBT people will be treated with dignity and have their basic human rights upheld.

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you didnt get my point did you, this gay agenda and constant obsession of LGBT agenda ins Russia started even before the Olympics
yet this was the perfect excuse for the media obsessed to write about. perhaps its an 800 year old ingratitude and insecurity to a country that curved the mongol horde expansion.

you make it sound like gays in Russia have the most appaling conditions there is in the World, the fact that some people are comparing it to Nazism is idiocracy
FYI, there are gay clubs in Russia and it was not stated in this bill to raid/close all the gay bars. for once you are right some countries have lucky the LGBT have almost have it all while some face death sentence or lashes like in the middle east but you have no right to conform a given time to make a change That is Not Your Country !!!

really you think after Olympics, making this noise and calls for boycott will change the poeples mindset, actually the more they make a noise on this
the people in Russia will have more intollerance, what they find disgusting in the behavior of some LGBT is desecration of the eternal flame, kissing and plating a rainbow flag on the eternal flame itself, even national holidays that have nothing to do , as it is labelled hoolignaism takes place shouting and taking unruly behavior in areas full of children like Russia Day, Navy Day etc. this was what prompted the bill.

One interesting thing I've noticed on this thread is that the people who support the Putin law assume that the people who are against the law are all gay. I am not gay. I am fairly sure that several others who have spoken here are also straight. We speak out because we worry about the people who will be persecuted by the law. Many of us have friends or relatives who are gay. Most of us have enjoyed watching at least one or two skaters who are gay. Most of our gay friends aren't yelling or demanding that Russia fly rainbow flags atop the Kremlin. They just want to go about their lives in peace and safety, do their jobs, help their communities, occasionally hold hands in public.

Maybe that's the reason that so few Russians have protested against the law: that they are afraid that people will assume that they are gay? I know that if I lived in Russia, I wouldn't be so brave about opening my mouth as I am here, in the U.S., anonymous behind a screen name, in a big city where all kinds of people live together.

the gay scene in Russia is reminiscent in US 1970's on a smaller scale, what prompted
were 2 things: hooliganism as I mentioned, the LGBT in Russia are not quiet as you think with other countries
they are aggressive with the expense of distancing the mass public, that is also a reason very few have sympathy for them in Russia
1 who would support them when all they do is fly rainbow flag and make mass public kissing in front of the tomb of the unknown soldiers in Russian cities,
that is a desecration for them or shouting and chanting with rainbow flags, making huge scenes destroying public holidays like Russia Day, Navy Day who traditionally brings children/family with them, children are brought which was as it was so called intended for this bill.
2 the notion that the LGBT movement has been hijacked and used a tool for liberal mass movement in Russia

Russia is an illiberal country that wont change for some time, liberalism is highly disfavored as cause of moral degradation and western alien invention

sky_fly20 said:

you didnt get my point did you, this gay agenda and constant obsession of LGBT agenda ins Russia started even before the Olympics
yet this was the perfect excuse for the media obsessed to write about. perhaps its an 800 year old ingratitude and insecurity to a country that curved the mongol horde expansion.

you make it sound like gays in Russia have the most appaling conditions there is in the World, the fact that some people are comparing it to Nazism is idiocracy
FYI, there are gay clubs in Russia and it was not stated in this bill to raid/close all the gay bars. for once you are right some countries have lucky the LGBT have almost have it all while some face death sentence or lashes like in the middle east but you have no right to conform a given time to make a change That is Not Your Country !!!

really you think after Olympics, making this noise and calls for boycott will change the poeples mindset, actually the more they make a noise on this
the people in Russia will have more intollerance, what they find disgusting in the behavior of some LGBT is desecration of the eternal flame, kissing and plating a rainbow flag on the eternal flame itself, even national holidays that have nothing to do , as it is labelled hoolignaism takes place shouting and taking unruly behavior in areas full of children like Russia Day, Navy Day etc. this was what prompted the bill.

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Wow, LGBT Russians are sooo lucky that they will only be thrown in jail or have their kids taken away, instead of being lashed or put to death. How fortunate they are!

You're basically saying because other countries have worse conditions, it's okay for Russia to have bad conditions? You act as though Russia is some shining example of LGBT rights because other countries are more severe in their discrimination. "We discriminate, but hey, at least we're not as bad as the Middle East!" Gimme a break.

And yes, I do think that making this noise during the Olympics will create change. You are sorely mistaken to think that the LGBT community - and straight allies, like Olympia - will simply sit back and watch as a country treats people like second-class citizens. Again, we are not advocating for "gay-washing" the Olympic games, we are advocating for Russian to treat LGBT citizens with common decency and not vilify them as some absurd threat to their children or whatever justification they're spinning the purpose of these laws.

I don't have time to read all the posts now. Just want to ask a question. Is teen suicide rate going up or going down now compare with, say 50-100 years ago, in US? I believe it's going up. That's a proof of the result of all confusions that children got in this country, including this unnecessary gay propaganda to them.