Is there an ideal "figure" in figure skating? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Is there an ideal "figure" in figure skating?

guanchi

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Yes, but what is too thin? Is Zacharova too thin? For me not, she is a perfect ballet dancer.
I don't remember the American girl's name who learn ballet in Bolshoi, he was a little bit fat, when she arrived in Moscow. Now she completed her studies, I saw a video she became more thinner.

But don't get me wrong, I think Mao, Caro, Yuna and many others have good body types, I like them.

I believe the American girl is Joy Womack (been watching ballet now for the past few years).

Her body type may not be considered ideal esp. in Russian ballet, where little girls are examined head to toe for an "ideal" body type before a group of stern discerning women who will in no uncertain terms call one girl or another "too fat", "stumpy-legged", "big head", and so on... Look for a video called 52 percent, which is considered an ideal leg-lower torso ratio to the upper body.

As for Svetlana, she has a body and balletic qualities to die for, but her foot arch may be considered a bit extreme, and she is known more for her ungodly extensions, supple spine and lines more than, let's say, quick strong footwork (petite allegro for example) Some shorter, less "ideal body-type" ballerinas may be much stronger for fast footwork and turning pirouettes, and their fouettes may actually look nicer because their legs don't hyperextend as much. A very strong dancer in the 60's was Eckaterina Maximova, who danced with her husband Vladimir Vasiliev. Not ideal Russian ballerina body for today- today they are looking for a tall slender Sylvie Guillem body type- but perfectly acceptable back then.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
For corps de ballet and other ensembles where unison is the goal, there is some argument to be made that everyone should look as similar as possible. But there's also an alternative argument that enforcing similarity also suppresses individuality and encourages viewing the dancers as automatons. It could also be seen as racist if required similarity extends to skin tone and other visible ethnic markers. Diversity of size, shape, and color is often a positive aesthetic statement in some aesthetics.

I remember hearing that this argument that everyone had to look similar was for years the excuse not to hire black dancers for the Rockettes. This policy changed, thank goodness, in 1987. There's also some variation in height allowed for now: it's compensated for by having the taller dancers stand in the middle, and then the rest of the dancers lining up in size order out to the two ends of the group. (Or maybe it's the other way around and the shortest dancers are at the center, but you get the idea.) the range is now between 5'6" and 5'101⁄2", which gives at least a bit of leeway for talented dancers.

Certainly there's not a huge range of sizes and body types that can succeed in a sport (except for some hugely talented outliers that just power their way into the spotlight by sheer quality), but in many sports there's often more variation than we first imagine. For example, most swimmers these days are very tall (think of Missy Franklin, over six feet tall), but one of the most decorated Olympic backstroke champions ever is Hungary's Krisztina Egerszegi, who's rather small. That's why it's always better to reason inductively about a "good skating body type" (by citing examples of great skaters) rather than reasoning deductively (by citing a type).
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I think all discussion of weight should be highly discouraged. Skating has LONG, LONG, LONG been a sport rife with eating disorders (same as wrestling and gymnastics). When you start discussing a 14, 15, 16 year old girl (and there's a large number of them at high levels in this sport) who may be reading fan message boards like this, when people start throwing "fat", "wide", "needs to lose weight" around and they potentially read it, it's going to start distorting their body image. That's when you end up with skaters eating one small meal a day or restricting calories to some ridiculously small amount (a couple hundred calories a day), because OMG, people said I was fat. Someone who's a high level athlete should be at a higher than starvation number of calories a day. A lot of times, when "fans" start with the "skater X needs to lose weight", it's a girl who's proportions are shifting and turning into a woman. It can't be helped during puberty, it just happens, and that little extra goes away if the skater continues on a HEALTHY diet and caloric intake. In addition, there are a number of "fans" who are downright cruel about it and think that anyone who wouldn't look like a concentration camp refugee in person is fat.

Truthfully, a couple extra pounds will not make a difference in whether a skater fully rotates a jump. I've seen "wider" skaters in the adult ranks who land big, beautiful double jumps well into their forties and fifties (who are only praticing 4-5 hours a week, so not elite time commitment) and they are able to do that because they have good jumping technique and proper timing. Some of the greatest lady jumpers in history were smaller in stature but incredibly muscular (Ito, Harding).

ITA with everything you say. I seriously doubt that pre-pubescent bodies (or post-pubescent bodies that look pre-pubescent) are needed for good jumping. What trips some young skaters up is not that their bodies change at puberty, per se, but that they can't adjust to the changes. I think strength also plays a big role, as evidenced by how the top male skaters can do jumps that few women can do, like triple axels, with ease. In my opinion, the slender figure that some see as ideal is purely a matter of aesthetics.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
For example, most swimmers these days are very tall (think of Missy Franklin, over six feet tall), but one of the most decorated Olympic backstroke champions ever is Hungary's Krisztina Egerszegi, who's rather small. That's why it's always better to reason inductively about a "good skating body type" (by citing examples of great skaters) rather than reasoning deductively (by citing a type).

Egerszegi isn't small. 1.74m (5ft 9in), but yes, she was smaller than the other swimmer women. But she had an unique and perfect technic.



I believe the American girl is Joy Womack (been watching ballet now for the past few years).

Her body type may not be considered ideal esp. in Russian ballet, where little girls are examined head to toe for an "ideal" body type before a group of stern discerning women who will in no uncertain terms call one girl or another "too fat", "stumpy-legged", "big head", and so on... Look for a video called 52 percent, which is considered an ideal leg-lower torso ratio to the upper body.

As for Svetlana, she has a body and balletic qualities to die for, but her foot arch may be considered a bit extreme, and she is known more for her ungodly extensions, supple spine and lines more than, let's say, quick strong footwork (petite allegro for example) Some shorter, less "ideal body-type" ballerinas may be much stronger for fast footwork and turning pirouettes, and their fouettes may actually look nicer because their legs don't hyperextend as much. A very strong dancer in the 60's was Eckaterina Maximova, who danced with her husband Vladimir Vasiliev. Not ideal Russian ballerina body for today- today they are looking for a tall slender Sylvie Guillem body type- but perfectly acceptable back then.

Really, her name is Joy Womack. :) I wached her videos on Youtube. She is very purposeful lady.

the Vaganova's students, amazing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVuAZLBE8a8

another great ballerina Natalia Osipova http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELswwqPte3A totally differente body shape-she can fly ;)

Polina Semionova http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaO7bS5Ky6M she is very tall dancer, but so perfect. I adore this video!!

So I don't know what is the best body type, but the long, thin arms, thin physiques are aesthetically more beautiful.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
What kind of body did Michelle Kwan have during her prime skating years? Even during Nagano, I felt that she was stumpy, like a gymnast. Short with huge thighs and bulky arms. In the 2000s, she even developed two largish lady humps on her chest. I feel like that is -partly- why she is much more famous and gets more sponsorships than other skaters, despite not having an ideal, thin, tall physique.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Huge thighs and bulky arms? No wonder girls in this country have such a low opinion of their bodies. If that's huge, we can all give up and go to a fat farm. During her skating years, Michelle was a trim person with the proportions of a real person, neither a waif nor a linebacker. A true gymnast such as Shawn Johnson or Ali Raisman is a lot more solid in the torso, and neither of those ladies is "huge," either. Michelle had a waist and hips and some cleavage (please, not "lady humps"), and everything fit together. She wasn't prepubescent, but she didn't have the curves of a Katerina Witt. As far as getting sponsorships because of her "lady humps"--she got sponsors because she was the last true skating champion we had. She got sponsors because people knew who she was. In fact, a lot of people who don't know skating still ask if Michelle is skating in upcoming championships, because she's the only name they recognize.

I might also add that a "thin, tall physique" wasn't an ideal in skating in those days, though thin probably was. It was the days when tiny, girlish skaters were thought to be the only ones who could make the jumps that were becoming de rigueur. As I recall, few skaters were as tall as Nancy Kerrigan. She was just five foot four, and she looked tall by comparison to everyone else. Kristi was Michelle's height, but she had a kid's weight during her amateur career--below 100 pounds. I think Michelle weighed something like 105.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Huge thighs and bulky arms? No wonder girls in this country have such a low opinion of their bodies. If that's huge, we can all give up and go to a fat farm. During her skating years, Michelle was a trim person with the proportions of a real person, neither a waif nor a linebacker. A true gymnast such as Shawn Johnson or Ali Raisman is a lot more solid in the torso, and neither of those ladies is "huge," either. Michelle had a waist and hips and some cleavage (please, not "lady humps"), and everything fit together. She wasn't prepubescent, but she didn't have the curves of a Katerina Witt. As far as getting sponsorships because of her "lady humps"--she got sponsors because she was the last true skating champion we had. She got sponsors because people knew who she was. In fact, a lot of people who don't know skating still ask if Michelle is skating in upcoming championships, because she's the only name they recognize.

I might also add that a "thin, tall physique" wasn't an ideal in skating in those days, though thin probably was. It was the days when tiny, girlish skaters were thought to be the only ones who could make the jumps that were becoming de rigueur. As I recall, few skaters were as tall as Nancy Kerrigan. She was just five foot four, and she looked tall by comparison to everyone else. Kristi was Michelle's height, but she had a kid's weight during her amateur career--below 100 pounds. I think Michelle weighed something like 105.
Hallelujah and Amen, Sister Olympia! :yes:

I gotta roll with you on some of the unfortunate wording. Lady humps? :rofl:

If some guy had been stranded on a deserted island since birth and raised by a male orangutan, never having laid eyes on a woman in all that time, one might possibly understand the awkwardness of anatomical description. Any excuse short of that just doesn't cut it :laugh:.

Stumpy? Huge thighs and bulky arms? One would think we were discussing Gimli the Dwarf. :p
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
I think all discussion of weight should be highly discouraged. Skating has LONG, LONG, LONG been a sport rife with eating disorders (same as wrestling and gymnastics). When you start discussing a 14, 15, 16 year old girl (and there's a large number of them at high levels in this sport) who may be reading fan message boards like this, when people start throwing "fat", "wide", "needs to lose weight" around and they potentially read it, it's going to start distorting their body image. That's when you end up with skaters eating one small meal a day or restricting calories to some ridiculously small amount (a couple hundred calories a day), because OMG, people said I was fat. Someone who's a high level athlete should be at a higher than starvation number of calories a day. A lot of times, when "fans" start with the "skater X needs to lose weight", it's a girl who's proportions are shifting and turning into a woman. It can't be helped during puberty, it just happens, and that little extra goes away if the skater continues on a HEALTHY diet and caloric intake. In addition, there are a number of "fans" who are downright cruel about it and think that anyone who wouldn't look like a concentration camp refugee in person is fat.

If people are being cruel about it or have absurd expectations (which sometimes they certainly do, and the recent post here calling MK's thighs "huge" is a prime example of that :rolleye:), that's a problem, but it's possible to talk about weight without that sort of nonsense.

Perhaps I'm not being realistic, but I would really like for people to be able to talk about the practical aspects of weight (and I mean not just on this board or in sports, but in general, too, with health, etc.) without all the baggage, attitudes and associations that often come with it. Sensitivity about weight is so common nowadays because we learn to attach all these judgmental and moralistic ideas to it, like extra weight = lazy, ugly, stupid, out of control, unappealing, etc. I would much prefer that people talk about it in a rational, judgment-free way, rather than everyone pretending weight differences don't exist and weight never affects anything.

Truthfully, a couple extra pounds will not make a difference in whether a skater fully rotates a jump. I've seen "wider" skaters in the adult ranks who land big, beautiful double jumps well into their forties and fifties (who are only praticing 4-5 hours a week, so not elite time commitment) and they are able to do that because they have good jumping technique and proper timing. Some of the greatest lady jumpers in history were smaller in stature but incredibly muscular (Ito, Harding).

Ito and Harding get brought up a lot as examples of "heavier" skaters. As I mentioned in my last post, "thick" or "heavy" elite skaters are really only so relative to other elite skaters. They were still small women, no doubt about that. Their success hardly means any physique can succeed at their level. Also, did they not also have times when they struggled with their jumps because their weight crept over what was optimal for them? Tonya Harding's optimal weight would have been higher than say, Sasha Cohen's, but she still had one. I'm not surprised recreational skating sees a wider range of body types compared to elite. That's the case in most sports. Obviously, that doesn't mean they'd cut it at the Olympic/international level, which is what I figured this discussion is mainly about.

I know it can't be easy to be in the public eye at a time in your life when you're likely to be sensitive about your body. At the same time, skaters must hear weight-talk all the time anyway, online or off, from coaches, peers, etc. If a skater's struggling with weight or body changes, I'm sure they know it themselves already. There's no need to be insulting or cluck your tongue like they've committed some grave sin or assume their career is finished, but I don't see why everyone should have to outright pretend not to notice, either. It happens. *shrug* It seems to me that keeping mum about it even when it's an obvious fact kinda plays into the idea that weight gain is some bad, shameful thing. Why can't body type differences and weight fluctuations simply be treated as an ordinary part of life?
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Because it's turned into a huge deal these days as if self-worth is defined by thinness. I don't say fitness, I see way too many people who are thin from not eating properly who aren't fit...but they DO fit into a size 2...

Ito was hospitalized before Nagano for an eating disorder (I believe she was anorexic, the official reason for hospitalization was "anemia") because she had been badgered into coming back and because her first time around people had always told her she was "too fat". She was not strong enough to get through her elements/programs because she WAS too thin. It's great to see her back in the adult ranks and enjoying herself on the ice after all that. Look at Jenny Kirk's blog about her bulemia experiences. These two aren't the ONLY ones who went through this in this sport. It's the second "great hush hush secret in this sport" and I think people writing about whether Katelyn Osmund is fat or Liza Tuktamysheva should only eat one meal a day perpetuate this issue as some elite skaters see the posts and distort their body image at a time in their lives when they are already sensitive to it. They are athletes first and foremost and need to determine what is best for them to be at their peak physical-ness within their sport, not whether they "look thin" or meet some nonsensical aesthetic apeal.

I don't see people writing after the Dallas-Giants game on Sunday that if Eli Manning would lose 5 pounds, he wouldn't throw so many interceptions....this constant aesthetic discussion of skaters (too fat, thighs too big, etc) is another reason why it's not taken seriously as a sport.

Yes, there is an optimal window for weight for each skater, but I don't see that it's anyone here's responsibility to bring it up or discuss it (especially repeatedly and nastily - huge thighs? lady humps? skater is too wide/fat? ugh...). That should be between the skater, their coaching team, family, doctor, nutritionist, etc. to determine. Every time it comes up, even if begun politely, on fan boards it turns nasty....and it often turns nasty from people who's favorite is "threatened" by the "fat/wide/overweight" skater that the fan brings up.

Look at Gedevenishvilli and Leonova - they went on some crazy-@ss diet and now don't jump as well or have any stamina, but they now looks more the "ideal" that people here are bringing up. Sorry, both were WAY better when they had a more muscular build!

I see way too many formerly competitive skaters (made it to Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals) who are in their 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's who have a very distorted body image (probably from the judges who used to tell them to lose 5 pounds or the coach who used to trot out the scale every day). It IS truly possible to land the jumps cleanly and get through a program 5 or 10 pounds overweight. It's about technique. Would it be EASIER on them if they didn't have an extra 5-10 pounds? Yep.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Good points, mskater93. (And Olympia.)

It's the second "great hush hush secret in this sport"

What were you thinking of as the first?

and I think people writing about whether Katelyn Osmund is fat or Liza Tuktamysheva should only eat one meal a day perpetuate this issue as some elite skaters see the posts and distort their body image at a time in their lives when they are already sensitive to it. They are athletes first and foremost and need to determine what is best for them to be at their peak physical-ness within their sport, not whether they "look thin" or meet some nonsensical aesthetic apeal.

Yes, and it's not only the specific elite skaters named who may be getting dangerous messages from those posts.
Any young skater going through normal body changes while trying to move into elite competition (or stay there if she got there early) might read these posts, see more successful skaters their own size or smaller being referred to as too heavy, and conclude that they will have more success if they keep themselves from growing or lose weight (including muscle mass) they can't afford to lose.

They might also be taking such messages from things that are said within the sport, and that's a problem that coaches and others in the sport need to address and take care with.

But fans should also take care in discussing these issues publicly. As not everyone in this thread has done so far.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
The "many male skaters are gay secret" (which is becoming less secretive) is the first that came to mind, but that's not the topic of this discussion...

I just picked out two skaters who have been targeted recently in my for instance here. I overhear conversation at the rinks I skate at among kids who are preparing for Regionals (and some hateful comments said behind the backs of others about "size", one of whom is super thin but muscular other than her bust size, which is genetic) and their eating habits, etc and I just hope parents intervene or this is just braggadacio because it's downright scary to listen to.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Hallelujah and Amen, Sister Olympia! :yes:

I gotta roll with you on some of the unfortunate wording. Lady humps? :rofl:

If some guy had been stranded on a deserted island since birth and raised by a male orangutang, never having laid eyes on a woman in all that time, one might possibly understand the awkwardness of anatomical description. Any excuse short of that just doesn't cut it :laugh:.

Stumpy? Huge thighs and bulky arms? One would think we were discussing Gimli the Dwarf. :p

I just put the male orangutun's offspring on my ignore list.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
My answer to the thread title question:

No, there is not a single ideal body type for figure skating.

To succeed at the elite levels, you need to be able to execute elite-level skills. Some body types will be much less likely to be able to achieve that, even with excellent technique.

That's true of all sports, with different sports favoring different body types.

If you love to do something that your body is not ideal for, you may have to face the reality that elite success is not going to happen for you and plan your future accordingly. The same is true for those who won't reach the top for other reasons, such as financial resources.

But each athlete can try to maximize his or her own potential, achieve the best results they can, and decide for themselves when they've passed the point of diminishing returns and move on to some other endeavor.

Different fans -- and different judges, for that matter -- may have preferences about their favorite styles of movement, favorite types of body shape, etc. But personal preference for viewing should not be taken as dictating an ideal that all should strive for, or that should limit who is or is not allowed to succeed or continue in the sport.

And I'd like to say the same about the dance world as well, but that would be a discussion for elsewhere.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Here, here, gkelly! Personally, I like the "ripped" look on a skater (like Wagner and Gold) and the more athletic style that typically goes with that.

Even skaters who have an "ideal" shape may get stuck on one of the gateway elements, even with enough resources (coaching and practice time). Some kids never get over their fear enough to do a single Axel. Others never learn to jump high enough and/or rotate quick enough to land a double Axel.

FWIW, Megan Hyatt, who was a Junior National medalist, shot up to 5'8"+ the season after her breakthrough in Juniors. She was still landing 3Lz fairly consistently. She ended up with injuries and out of the sport from other things (like trying to get the flexibility items for higher level spins as it was during the IJS cutover), but it just proves that with proper technique, anything can be done.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I'll also say that ideal body type for jumping involves more than just body size and shape.

I've known skaters who were thin and long-limbed who were solid senior-level skaters in other areas but couldn't jump high enough to master triple jumps, because of natural muscle fiber composition (training can have an effect, but mostly it's genetic) or connective tissue issues.

One was a successful school figures specialist in the 1990s when the US had separate competitions for figures.

One in the 2000s did well at novice level with double jumps, scored especially well at IJS spins thanks to flexibility, and usually placed just below the triple jumpers when she skated clean with doubles in seniors.

Another was a lovely skater with great flow over the ice, stunning extension, and nice high double jumps, but extra-long legs made it hard for her to achieve a tight enough air position to rotate triple jumps (although she did come close enough to try them in her programs).
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
I don't know how some people can stay up on their high horse about their views on weight while at the same time, doing exactly what they claim others do -- pooh pooh body types. The line of reasoning usually goes like this: Everyone is thin. The ones who aren't thin are, in actuality, thin - they just look that way because of the camera adding 5 lbs/lighting adding 5 lbs/they're really tiny in person/they're only [x] lbs! A body with lots of muscle is still considered bad. It completely befuddles me, especially in a sports context. Why cry foul if a skater is said to have large quads or their arms have so much definition there is separation beneath the deltoids? Do you want them to execute triple jumps with good height or not?

I don't think I would be quite as annoyed if there were a good reason to pressure skaters to have a thin, willowy body. Even something like thinner bodies have smaller moments of inertia would at least give the impression of real thought. But there isn't a mechanical reason. It basically comes down to "thin bodies look pretty to me." If you think about it, a short but very muscular body like Kwan's or Gold's or Ito's or Wagner's is better for absorbing shock during falls and jumping, respectively. It is not nasty to say someone has big thighs; on the contrary, it is a compliment to their leg muscles and jumping ability. From this thread, it seems as if the highest compliment one can pay a skater is that they can execute all the elements of the sport, but has the body of someone who doesn't eat very much and probably just does a bit of cardio now and then.

I also suspect that if skaters did try to actively pursue the very muscular body instead of the very thin body, this would lead to longer skating careers as well. From the start, skaters would learn how to jump with height and not rely on extremely rapid rotation. It is more sustainable to build muscle and be stronger than to try to make your body as thin as possible to maximize rotation. Although the latter strategy does seem to work. I remember last year Asada had some sort of equation in which she calculated she need to lose 4 kg to keep her triple axel. And she still is the only lady with a triple axel.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I also suspect that if skaters did try to actively pursue the very muscular body instead of the very thin body, this would lead to longer skating careers as well. From the start, skaters would learn how to jump with height and not rely on extremely rapid rotation. It is more sustainable to build muscle and be stronger than to try to make your body as thin as possible to maximize rotation. Although the latter strategy does seem to work. I remember last year Asada had some sort of equation in which she calculated she need to lose 4 kg to keep her triple axel. And she still is the only lady with a triple axel.

The point about building muscle leading to longer careers is a really interesting one. The extra muscle would have other benefits, too: I suspect the body would be healthier and more able to withstand both injuries and illness--how many times do we hear of skaters dealing with a cold or "the flu" and dragging themselves through a routine? Bones would be stronger, and maybe cartilage and ligaments as well. Also, as you said in an earlier paragraph, better shock absorption for jump landings. And it would serve to give girls power over their own bodies. No longer would they be slaves to the onset of puberty, subsisting on grape skins and tea to keep their fat content down.

I'd add that what I took exception to in your last comment was not the idea of more solid builds being an advantage but the word choices of the description. Michelle isn't a tiny sprite, but she's not large even by the standards of the skating world. Certainly her main rival, Irina Slutskaya, was more solidly built than Michelle, and even Irina would be considered small in the average population of either her country or the U.S. However, you're right to classify Michelle as more compactly built, and the fact that she seemed not to fight that in herself was very smart of her. I don't think that her arms and legs were "stumpy"; they were in proportion to her torso. They just weren't unusually long in that Balanchine ideal of a tiny torso and long limbs that can be seen even in a petite person like Sasha Cohen.
 
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