More Carmen and Swan Lake!!! REALLY????? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

More Carmen and Swan Lake!!! REALLY?????

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I disagree. Virtue/Moir earned fifteen 10.00s in PCS for that program at 2012 Worlds--seven of them for Performance/Execution, four of them for choreography, and another four for Interpretation/Timing. They had as many 10.00s for Interpretation/Timing as D/W had! They also had the same PCS overall for Performance (9.96) and Interpretation/Timing (9.86) as D/W.

V/M's overall PCS was off by about 0.40 (58.79 D/W vs. 58.32 V/M), while their TES was off by about 0.80 (53.85 D/W vs. 52.65 V/M).
Since when was V/M scoring similar (but slightly lower) PCS as D/W considered a good thing for them?? D/W are the golden standard now? LOL
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Since when was V/M scoring similar (but slightly lower) PCS as D/W considered a good thing for them?? D/W are the golden standard now? LOL

Don't put words in my mouth, :party2:.

I argued that they were rewarded for their program. I never said it was considered a good thing for them, nor did I say the latter.

They took a risk, and it didn't work out for them (to the max) because they were trying to do too much--but they were still rewarded for it.

Both teams have improved from the 2010 Olympics, but I would also argue that D/W have been improving at a faster rate over the last three years than V/M.

Maos swan lake last season wad epic thougr..

I wouldn't call it epic, but I did especially like the second half of the program (particularly near the ending). :cool:
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Well, am I the only one who likes Carmen/Swan Lake? I hate the low-level-all-looking-the-same programs, but if one of the top skaters uses an overused music and creates a wonderful program... I don't find anything wrong in it! Especially because they're overused because they're incredibly beautiful works of art, and I'll be never tired of listening to Carmen or Swan Lake! If a skater wants to use one of these musics because she/he has never done it before and he/she loves it, he/she shouldn't do it just because we fans are tired of hearing the same music over and over? ;) (this is just my opinion, I know many of you will disagree 100% :slink: )

For me it's not so much skating to familiar music that's the problem. It's the bad or inadequate interpretation of these classic and beautiful musical pieces. Most skaters just think skating to this music gives them automatic points. It sure seems that way, because the judges keep rewarding it. Some don't even put much effort into their choreography; they act like the music does the work for them, a la Wagner's Swan Lake which was one of the most empty programs choreographically from a top-level lady I've seen for a while. Since when did Cappellini and Lanotte start being contenders? They were languishing in the ranks as the mediocre Italian team, until Shpilband gave them a nicely choreographed Carmen. The judges rewarded them big time, and classics simply done well (it doesn't even have to be a work of genius) will move a skater's career. V&M is the closest to doing a respectable Carmen in a long time. Personal favorite Carmen is Petrenko's Carmen SP from the early 90s - that was a brilliant work of art - since when did we see such a Carmen from the singles? I hope I'm wrong and that we'll see amazing programs in Sochi.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I agree with Olympia's vision, lol. It will get ridiculous. Funny, I think it is ok for ice dance where over reaching expressiveness is part of the style for decades, but will find it distracting in singles and pairs.

Will we never see another Lyra Angelica? I guess not.
 

Whitneyskates

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
As long as the judges keep rewarding skaters for overused music, skaters will continue to do so.
That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that, even if a team or skater has a great performance, with difficult content and choreography, that they shouldn't receive the scores they deserve simply because of the music they skate to?
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that, even if a team or skater has a great performance, with difficult content and choreography, that they shouldn't receive the scores they deserve simply because of the music they skate to?

You're splitting hairs.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that, even if a team or skater has a great performance, with difficult content and choreography, that they shouldn't receive the scores they deserve simply because of the music they skate to?
:thumbsup: That's what some posters here are asserting, but I think that no-one really thinks it... However, we have to realize that we'll always hear some of the masterpieces of the classical music (like Carmen and Swan Lake) used over and over, sometimes in great programs, sometimes with horrible recycled boring choreographies, the ISU won't change that and the judges can't do anything about it (even if I'm sure that a lot of them are tired of hearing them, too!), we should just bear it... And hope that some of the top skaters choose new music!
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
I wish someone would do Swan Lake as their short and Carmen as their long!:eek:
 

LauraV

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I have to admit I would be rolling on the floor if someone or some team tried to pull off the Swan Lake - Carmen double play. It would pretty audacious to double down on the all time most overused music in skating.

More seriously, context matters, I think. While SL and Carmen are both overused in the singles disciplines, the same is not quite true in pairs or dance, is it? Carmen was used before in ice dance but not overused in that discipline to the degree it has been in singles, so the prospect of V&M's Carmen free dance last season was intrinsically more interesting (to me at least) than yet another singles Carmen program. Pairs and dance teams can exploit a different range of expressive possibilities in terms of movement and shapes, and music that may be overdone in singles can still be used to fresh or impressive effect in pairs or dance. V&M certainly did so. I am glad they took on Carmen last year - whatever else might be said about it, the program was a fascinating take on the theme.

Likewise, Scheherazade has been overused in singles but it has barely been used in dance at all. In another thread, only two previous Schez dance programs have been found - and the last senior Schez program of significance was Blumberg & Seibert of thirty years ago. I think the field is wide open for D&W to present a very effective program, and I am looking forward to it. (And V&M's free dance as well - I like both teams and many others!)

In the same vein, while it's hard to judge from snippets, I&K's Swan Lake free dance looks very promising. Very anxious to see that.
 

skatingfan4ever

"Our blade takes us in the most amazing places."
Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Country
United-States
How many skaters do you think will actually take advantage of the option to skate with vocals? Just because they can skate to vocal music doesn't mean they're obligated to do so. Thoughts?
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
For sure, I expect it to show up in the developmental ranks (Pre-pre-Juv in the US, maybe even Intermediate/Novice levels). It already shows up at Basic Skills competitions -- a lot. Since a skater can judge Basic Skills competitions, I've done my fair share and in one group of younger, lower level (Basic 2? Basic 3?) skaters, we had 3 "Under the Sea"s and 2 "When you Wish Upon a Star"s and in an older group of Basic 6 or Basic 7, we have two "Fireworks" by Katy Perry. Ugh.
 

merrywidow

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
I'm looking forward to the arias from operas being performed by sopranos, mezzos, etc. & used by skaters. Perhaps those of you who disparage its current use will find it more appealing when heard vocally? :biggrin:
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I'm looking forward to the arias from operas being performed by sopranos, mezzos, etc. & used by skaters. Perhaps those of you who disparage its current use will find it more appealing when heard vocally? :biggrin:

Yeah, Merrywidow; can you imagine one of Richard Strauss's Four Last Songs? I fear you and I are not in the mainstream on this, but one can always dream! Or maybe something like this for a short program, a baroque piece called Bastiao. (Heaven only knows what they're saying, but golly, what a rhythm!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62xfkKkYsCw
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Judges are so consistent in telling skaters to use Swan Lake and Carmen! All of them love the classics! They want more Carmen's! More Swan Lake's! More Sheherzade! If they could they might want to impose this music on all skaters at the beginning of a season! Maybe ladies/Sheherzade! Men/Carmen or LAdies/Carmen men/Sheherzade!. Judges are always reliable in music biases.

Because all judges have identical opinions about music, regardless of whether they are 35 or 65, Ukrainian or Korean or Australian, are tone deaf or have studied music extensively.

On the other end of the extreme in which the idiotic ISU is also prone to, they may also start rewarding skaters for using "original" music. We might hear some weird, eardrum-busting sh** (remember Krylova's Cat or African music or whatever it was supposed to be?). At that point, we'd gladly welcome Carmen et al back.

Well, "originality" is one thing that's rewarded in the rules for the Choreography component. But that can also include original movements to overused music, so even if that criterion were emphasized more it wouldn't necessarily lead to more variety of music selections.

Some skaters might try to meet that criterion by choosing weird, eardrum-busting sh**, but if it doesn't allow them to show nuance and rhythm and flow, they won't be rewarded as much as if they used more familiar music.

In many cases, the overused music is overused because it especially lends itself well to showcasing skating skills. And then it becomes a safe choice not only for artistically inclined skaters who want to try their own take on the classics but also for jocks who want to focus on their technique and not worry about a side of the sport they're less interested in.

How many skaters do you think will actually take advantage of the option to skate with vocals? Just because they can skate to vocal music doesn't mean they're obligated to do so. Thoughts?

For sure, I expect it to show up in the developmental ranks (Pre-pre-Juv in the US, maybe even Intermediate/Novice levels). It already shows up at Basic Skills competitions -- a lot. Since a skater can judge Basic Skills competitions, I've done my fair share and in one group of younger, lower level (Basic 2? Basic 3?) skaters, we had 3 "Under the Sea"s and 2 "When you Wish Upon a Star"s and in an older group of Basic 6 or Basic 7, we have two "Fireworks" by Katy Perry. Ugh.

For several years, USFS has allowed vocal music up to intermediate level, in all adult events, and in test track 6.0-judged events up to senior as well as Basic Skills events, and in programs for freestyle tests.

Yes, I've heard a lot of insipid Disney and pop songs in Basic Skills events and in artistic events. Occasionally I've heard vocal music in IJS-level competition (just not standard novice-senior where it hasn't been allowed yet). Occasionally the choices are distracting -- sometimes I find myself paying more attention to the singing than to the skating.

The most successful programs I've seen to vocal music have used classic rock songs -- chosen by adult skaters or likely by coach/choreographer in the case of the kids. If the choreographer knows what s/he's doing, it can work -- I can only hope that whichever elite skaters go that route will choose wisely.


How soon will it take before we can make a list of overused vocal selections?
We've had vocal music in ice dance for over a decade now. What's overused there?
My problem with many of the free dance selections is that they don't seem to be sufficiently rhythmic for a discipline that's supposed to be based on interpreting rhythms.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't know about the judges, but I think the audience likes to hear what they like to hear. What do they like to hear? Carmen. :)
 

LauraV

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Carmen is probably a more popular choice for skating than most operas because many of the big arias are based on dance rhythms - e.g., the Habenera, the Seguidilla, etc. This is not the case with most operatic numbers.

Also - the tunes in Carmen really are spectacularly catchy.

Irresistible as Carmen may be, however, there is a limit to how often even the most appreciative listener wants to hear it, so I do wish singles skaters would use it more sparingly.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I'm curious to see Max Aaron's version although not with high hopes.

I don't know about the judges, but I think the audience likes to hear what they like to hear. What do they like to hear? Carmen. :)

I too am curious about Max Aaron's Carmen ... with high hopes. ;)
In his TSL interview this summer, Kirk and Lease teased him quite forcefully about picking Carmen. With a smile on his face, Max acknowledged Carmen's overuse and calmly explained why he chose it anyway. Some of his comments [I'm just paraphrasing]:
- Carmen is a crowd-pleaser. To this day, Max finds himself clapping along when he hears the music.
- He has wanted to skate to Carmen since he was nine years old. :yes:
- The selections at the beginning of his FS will not obviously smack of Carmen, unless one knows the entire opera extremely well. Max hopes to draw the audience members in as they wonder, "What is this music? Could it be from Carmen?" As his program proceeds, the later passages will sound more familiar.​
 

LauraV

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
It seems that most Carmen programs are actually drawn from Shchedrin's Carmen Suite (which references just some of the most prominent Carmen tunes) rather than the full opera. There is a lot of great music in Carmen that doesn't get heard much in skating, so if Max has plumbed some of the underused segments of the score, more power to him.
 
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