Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan? | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan?

Blades of Passion

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That you'd suggest Sawyer should have come 2nd over Chan after that disastrous SP

Chan's LP was disastrous. The LP counts for more than the SP.

and that you'd suggest Takahashi's 2012 SP was as technically flawed when he downgraded a jump, is enough to tell me that you just have it out for Chan.

You lose 2.8 points for downgrading a Triple Toe to a Double (and that jump should NOT have been called as << for Takhashi to begin with, it only merited a single underrotation call). Chan lost 2.7 points by messing up his footwork sequence and he also stepped out of his Quad, which deserved just about the same -GOE on it as Takahashi did for his clean Quad + messy Triple Toe combination.

Hanyu wasn't held down at the GPF 2011 because of reputation judging. It's because he was an unrefined skater coming out of the junior ranks, while others had been on the senior scene longer.

LMAO!!! WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS EXACTLY WHAT DEFINES REPUTATION JUDGING.

Others had been on the scene longer and hence Hanyu was vastly underscored because the judges didn't "know" him. What do you not understand? His skating was not unrefined either, it was inspired. He was stunning.

suggesting he should have won overall, especially given his SP error and 3S error in the FS, is something I totally disagree with.

Chan made two errors in the SP and three errors in the LP. He didn't deserve to have much of a cushion over Hanyu to begin with. Hanyu's performance, choreography, and interpretation were all better than Chan's and he was already doing very difficult 3Axel entrances. With an additional mistake as compared to Hanyu in the SP and two additional mistakes as compared to Hanyu in the LP, the latter should have won. If they had both skated exactly like that THIS season, Hanyu would have won.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Patrick won WC2012 by 6.5 points. Takahashi was 4.26 points behind Chan on PCS. So he wouldn't have won unless his PCS was at least 92 points.

As far as Yuzu ubers, at the GPF he scored 245 points, a personal best - and with an SP and LP error. His bronze at Worlds was 251 points. His GPF performance was artistic but his arms were unrefined and he lacked the speed of the other guys - especially towards the end with his asthma probably affecting him. He was marked just as he should have been (maybe ahead of Fernandez). Although this is really not worth discussing as his ubers think he should win everything and Chan is overscored etc. etc.

BoP you like Yuzu so much I wouldn't be surprised if you also called his 2012 Worlds and 2013 GPF freeskates as inspired, even though he fell in both with a bad fall (one which winded him and took time to recover, the other which sent him practically into the boards). I'm a Yuzu fan but when he makes errors, as with Chan, I acknowledge when it mars the overall performance and makes it less than inspired.
 

Blades of Passion

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Patrick won WC2012 by 6.5 points. Takahashi was 4.26 points behind Chan on PCS. So he wouldn't have won unless his PCS was at least 92 points.

I feel like you really don't get it. There are other moving variables in play. The chief of which was Patrick's own PCS. If his PCS had been significantly lower, as they should have been, then Takahashi wins the competition based on that alone.

I'm a Yuzu fan but when he makes errors, as with Chan, I acknowledge when it mars the overall performance and makes it less than inspired.

Doesn't seem like it. Again, Chan made THREE more mistakes than Hanyu at the 2011 GPF...and that's just the big mistakes. He had a couple other shaky edges in the LP as well, which detracts from the skating skills advantage he's supposed to have. I could give him those little mistakes + the mistakes in the SP + two of the big mistakes in the LP. But THREE? That's too much. Hanyu deserved to win.
 

Li'Kitsu

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CanadianSkaterGuy said:
BoP you like Yuzu so much I wouldn't be surprised if you also called his 2012 Worlds and 2013 GPF freeskates as inspired, even though he fell in both with a bad fall (one which winded him and took time to recover, the other which sent him practically into the boards).

The irony aside that this is coming from a Chan uber and that I'm saying this to a Chan uber now... but, having a fall does not always take away from the rest of the performance. Not if you're selling the **** out of the rest of your program. And Hanyu did at 2012 worlds and this GPF now. Did you see the crowd at 2012 worlds? That was in France, no hometown advantage, and I bet most of the poeple had no idea who this japanese kid was. But they screamed and cheered louder than for anyone else (besides Takahashi) and went up to their feet so fast... everyone I know who came back from that event said Hanyus LP (together with Takahashi's) was the highlight of the whole competition. I'm pretty sure the big majority of the audience tought his performance was inspired. Like it or not.

I'm a Yuzu fan but when he makes errors, as with Chan, I acknowledge when it mars the overall performance and makes it less than inspired.

Really? I've started hoping even more for Hanyu to land his 4S just so you would have to stop repeating this 'he never landed his 4S so far'. Like 50% of your argument would be gone. If Blades looks like someone who just has it out for Chan, you're just sounding like someone who has it out for Hanyu to defend your favorite.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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The irony aside that this is coming from a Chan uber and that I'm saying this to a Chan uber now... but, having a fall does not always take away from the rest of the performance. Not if you're selling the **** out of the rest of your program. And Hanyu did at 2012 worlds and this GPF now.

Well, then it can be argued that Chan's 2012 World's FS was sold until that 2A fall at the end, and his PCS was justified.
 

Li'Kitsu

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CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Well, then it can be argued that Chan's 2012 World's FS was sold until that 2A fall at the end, and his PCS was justified.

Nope. The scoring difference starts with the fact that it wasn't just a fall, but a completly botchered element. And most of all, the problem is that Chan fell behind the music in his 2012 LP and rushed to catch up again. For me, this hurt the overall performance more than the 2A mistake anyway. I thought there was even an interview back then where he said himself that rushing to catch up with the music again was what lead him to make the 2A mistake.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Doesn't seem like it. Again, Chan made THREE more mistakes than Hanyu at the 2011 GPF...and that's just the big mistakes. He had a couple other shaky edges in the LP as well, which detracts from the skating skills advantage he's supposed to have. I could give him those little mistakes + the mistakes in the SP + two of the big mistakes in the LP. But THREE? That's too much. Hanyu deserved to win.

If you look at their TES scores, due to low GOE on some of Hanyu's elements (notably the 3-2-2 and 3L in his FS) and his lack of 2 quad attempts, and things like Chan's 3Z-3S and 3F-3T in the 2nd half, his TES was actually lower than Chan's... that was the case in both segments. And of course Chan will score higher PCS that Hanyu in both segments. Hanyu was still not as refined back then as he is now and people are confounding the two. There was perhaps some reputation judging in play, but that's often the case when a top skater makes errors and clean skaters still place ahead of them, which explains why skaters like Brezina/Takahashi got higher SP marks even with more errors (also see Zijun Li losing to Mao/Kostner in the FS at Worlds last year; or Murakami/Osmond losing to Kostner in the SP).

His PCS for a near perfect FS was sub 80, which reflects him having yet to still improve the quality of his skating. And he was lumbering at the end of that performance with a rather disruptive mistake on the 3S, and his arms in both programs were mechanical during his basic skating (something which has improved). It was a solid skate, but no matter how much you love Yuzu and say he's inspired etc. he did not deserve to win that particular competition.
 

wonderlen3000

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FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.
 

Kelly

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FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.

:agree:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.

This would not incentivize skaters to perform elements with difficult entries, in time with the music, etc. we wouldn't see awesome moves like Yuzu's counter into his 3A or Rippon's 3Z. Same goes with spins and trying difficult positions and all that.
 

Blades of Passion

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Hanyu was still not as refined back then as he is now and people are confounding the two.

Can you stop talking about refinement? That's such a lame way to denigrate someone when it is stated with no other basis. You can have "refinement" and yet lack musicality and still give an awful performance. Hanyu's skating in 2012 was magical. He performed with his entire heart and body, had choreography with actual purpose, and interpreted the music beautifully. Those are qualities that have been missing in his Long Programs the past two years. His skating skills may have become a bit better, he may have gained a bit more "refinement", and he may be doing even more transitions now, but those improvements have all come at the cost of sacrificing his actual artistry. Therefore, overall, he hasn't improved in PCS if they were being judged correctly. He's actually lost a little, in my opinion. His gains since 2012 have been on the technical side.

His PCS for a near perfect FS was sub 80, which reflects him having yet to still improve the quality of his skating.

:disapp: Do you believe everything that is written on a piece of paper? He was held down for being a young skater with less clout. Virtually every commentator around the World was saying Hanyu and Takahashi outskated Chan in the LP at both the GPF and Worlds that season. Not to mention the audience agreed.
 

chuckm

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Unfortunately, Hanyu may STILL be held down for being a young skater with less clout. That's what happened to Denis Ten at Worlds 2013. Ten skated brilliantly without error in both programs and still lost to an errorful Chan who was held UP for being a skater with more reputation (MORE clout).

I am still hopeful than Hanyu can deliver again in Sochi and maybe this time the outcome on the big stage will be just.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Unfortunately, Hanyu may STILL be held down for being a young skater with less clout. That's what happened to Denis Ten at Worlds 2013. Ten skated brilliantly without error in both programs and still lost to an errorful Chan who was held UP for being a skater with more reputation (MORE clout).

I am still hopeful than Hanyu can deliver again in Sochi and maybe this time the outcome on the big stage will be just.

I doubt this. First, the Japan federation has a lot more influence to lobby for their skaters than the Uzbek federation. Second, Hanyu has beaten Chan a few times, whereas Dennis's performances really came out of nowhere.
 

Blades of Passion

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FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.

There is a difference between "correct" and "perfect", though. The deductions in gymnastics are very heavy. It's pretty much the same idea as having +GOE scores, the difference is just that a +3 GOE in the current system of ice skating would become 0 GOE. Yu-Na Kim's 3-3 combo and Midori Ito's 3Axel would get full base value, and everyone else would get a deduction in comparison. I much prefer having both -GOE and +GOE scores, as that sets up a clear line of differentiation. Judges just need to stop overscoring. I also feel more GOE increments need to exist: +.5, +1.5, +2.5 (same for -GOE). The difference between getting 0 and +1 GOE on a bunch of elements can make a huge difference in the score. If a judge is feeling overly friendly towards a particular skater, it creates an unfair advantage. If they could just give +.5 or +1.5 instead of +1 or +2 for every element a skater does, that would definitely help to curb reputation judging.
 

evangeline

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Well, then it can be argued that Chan's 2012 World's FS was sold until that 2A fall at the end, and his PCS was justified.

No--Chan was visibly behind his music and was trying to catch up with it for at least the final 1/4 of his LP. He even admitted he was trying to catch up with his music in the post-skate interview. Plus he had a bobble on a spin, messy landings on his sequence and doubled his salchow.


Keep trying.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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No--Chan was visibly behind his music and was trying to catch up with it for at least the final 1/4 of his LP. He even admitted he was trying to catch up with his music in the post-skate interview. Plus he had a bobble on a spin, messy landings on his sequence and doubled his salchow.


Keep trying.

His PCS was lower than his personal best but not with such grievous errors to put him below 90 PCS. A single fall wasnt going to give him PCS that was 6-8 points below what he normally earned, which is what Dai would have need to happen to beat Chan. The rest of Chan's skating was excellent and higher quality than essentially the rest of the field. Though I do think Chan should have lost the FS but barely won overall and not that margin.

It was a neutral ice so there was no reason for judges to hold back Takahashi in PCS other than maybe they just weren't as receptive to his performance as Takahashi's fans evidently were. Even with the botched axel, 2S and no third combo Chan still scored similar TES as Dai (who had tight landings and a UR flip as called by the tech spec, who, unlike those crying phantom call from a Youtube vid, actually has access to seeing the landing). So they were technically matched. And then the judges simply thought Chan skated the rest of his program better than Dai.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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It's not something that's been unfairly prepared so much as the other guys finally stepping their game and difficulty up to Chan's level, when they themselves have historically been prone to their own mistakes. As rare as a clean skate from Chan might be, he's had more of them than most of the other guys. Very few men have had a clean competition in the last quadrennial, and Chan having better artistry and higher difficulty has reaped the benefits of this.
 

Blades of Passion

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His PCS was lower than his personal best but not with such grievous errors to put him below 90 PCS.

Chan at his VERY best would maybe deserve 90 in PCS. Skating an uninspired performance with 3 errors, as at 2012 Worlds, should put him far below 90. Saying otherwise is just buying into the propaganda machine that is killing the sport. You even blindly defend the tech panel when they aren't properly trained in measuring jump rotation. There is NO instruction in the ISU judge training seminars for precisely measuring jump rotation, by looking at where the skater leaves the ice and when the jump should be considered landed (and that point should not be seen as when the very top of the skater's toepick has just barely begun to touch down). Until the ISU trains the judges properly and actually puts specifications into the rulebook, these calls will be continue to be more unfair and scientifically incorrect than they should be, resulting in poor competition results and spectators being put off.
 
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