Ashley's R&J?! | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Ashley's R&J?!

Orange Cat

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
... Well, I really liked Ashley's outfit, even if it puts me in the minority?

As for her program, it started out ok but the middle just made very little sense, choreographically and thematically. And then shoe-horning Juliet's suicide in at the end just didn't work for me. Since there was no clear progression of trying to build Juliet's personality or any plot ideas, all I could think at the end was Sassy Gay Friend's assessment of Juliet: "I think you're fourteen and an idiot".

It just feels like Wilson couldn't make up his mind as to whether he wanted to do a character or narrative driven program, and so ended up with something that was neither. Ashley deserves better IMO.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
IMO it would've been much more effective to have the program build up to the Dance of the Knights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBsKplb2E6Q) and have the steps there. I can't believe she didn't even include that music cut at all. I'm all about being original, especially with something as overdone as R&J, but as it is, her music is almost unrecognizable.
:agree::yes::clap::points: (I'm happy that I'm not the only one who thinks this, when I heard "Ahley+Prokofiev R&J" I immediatly thought "Dance of the Knights"!!)
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Ashley Wagner is my favorite US skater. Let me get that out. I am terribly unimpressed with this program. For one the music edits are all wrong. You are waiting for a crescendo, a climax, or SOMETHING and it never happens. It is not audience friendly. I don't see any potential in this. There is no 'there' there to make it happen. Bedroom Juliet is still a boring virgin imo.
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
The bare bones of the program is something that can build. I love that she brings the drama, as I think it IS something that Ashley can pull off, so I respectfully disagree with skateluvr. If she can pull off Black Swan, she can do Juliet. The music cuts, especially in the middle, are rather... displeasing and it loses me there, but she does pick it up in the end.

I agree with Orange Cat... it needs refinement and a strong Point of View throughout. I think if she conveyed the turmoil in the circular footwork better, and hit the jarring notes with sharper movement, it would work better. As it is, she's just learning it still, and it is early, so hopefully she will work on that. I still need to review what the intention of the program is... but to me, with Prokofiev's version, which, IMO, is all about the duality in Juliet's life, she needs to portray that better. Going between the jarring times of conflict, and the soft melodious "love" is what this program is about. (I actually think it's A LOT deeper than Cohen's. Whereas Cohen portrayed one strong emotion, love, a romantic love, although it was star-crossed love... AW's is much more conflicted, until the end, and that shows with the music. However, the problem you get into when portraying conflicted emotion is muddling those emotions and this feeling of being pulled in all directions, but nowhere strongly.)

What this program needs, more than anything, is to be refined and edited.

Also, those sit spins... god it is one of the thing IJS was suppose to improve and yet, the amount of ugly positions I see, particularly in sit spins, is crazy.
 

cinnamon

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Somebody was writing about David Wilson on this thread. By reading everybody's post here I just wonder, of course I know he is professional but, how one person can create in the limited time span, so many good, meaningful, well-received, satisfy majority of people programs - it's not an easy task! Then it is not surprise that this Ashley's program looks less than perfect at this stage as many of us thinking. It needs some changes. But we see Ashley is capable - this is a good part. So just wait for some brushing up.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I agree with Orange Cat... it needs refinement and a strong Point of View throughout. I think if she conveyed the turmoil in the circular footwork better, and hit the jarring notes with sharper movement, it would work better. As it is, she's just learning it still, and it is early, so hopefully she will work on that. I still need to review what the intention of the program is... but to me, with Prokofiev's version, which, IMO, is all about the duality in Juliet's life, she needs to portray that better. Going between the jarring times of conflict, and the soft melodious "love" is what this program is about. (I actually think it's A LOT deeper than Cohen's. Whereas Cohen portrayed one strong emotion, love, a romantic love, although it was star-crossed love... AW's is much more conflicted, until the end, and that shows with the music. However, the problem you get into when portraying conflicted emotion is muddling those emotions and this feeling of being pulled in all directions, but nowhere strongly.)

AW isn't the most artistic skater. A variety of emotions can be conveyed by extremely skilled and artistic skaters, but AW isn't one of them. This is the kind of program that requires the likes Paul Wylie, Matt Savoie, Dai, etc. At least Cohen did one general emotion really well, while AW hasn't mastered even one.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
^ Completely disagree about that. AW is a very good performer, but needs guidance and the correct programs. She is great with music that has a continuous, pulsing beat. Ashley is able to display a lot of force in her skating, but she does have the ability to show some vulnerability too (helped by being able to hold good positions with calmness). There is so much potential for masterpiece programs with her. Black Swan showed a lot of what she can do, but that program could have pushed her even more gone deeper with portraying insanity. The Red Violin showed she can be elegant and express nuances, it just needed a better ending.

I think Prokofiev's R&J is an excellent piece for Ashley. It has that driving, forceful, progressive beat and also has a softer side which matches up directly with her sensibilities. She needs a music cut very similar to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSxXABXBpJM . That "dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DAH" section we hear in the Anissina&Peizerat program starting at 1:12 is kind of beat which is perfect for Ashley. And for the love of GOD, she needs to have an extended spiral sequence. I'm not sure why her choreographers are ignoring how well she does it (just look at her 2012 program!) and why that kind of sequence is so necessary for her skating. Her last year's program and her current program have brief, uninspiring spirals.
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
I like Ashley's program.

- The music cuts are not the typical famous warhorse parts of R&J so it's more refreshing;
- Good death drop, Split jump/lunge, and rollover camel;
- Triple/Triple jump and all her jumps seemed easy for her.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
^ Completely disagree about that. AW is a very good performer, but needs guidance and the correct programs. She is great with music that has a continuous, pulsing beat. Ashley is able to display a lot of force in her skating, but she does have the ability to show some vulnerability too (helped by being able to hold good positions with calmness). There is so much potential for masterpiece programs with her. Black Swan showed a lot of what she can do, but that program could have pushed her even more gone deeper with portraying insanity. The Red Violin showed she can be elegant and express nuances, it just needed a better ending.

I think Prokofiev's R&J is an excellent piece for Ashley. It has that driving, forceful, progressive beat and also has a softer side which matches up directly with her sensibilities. She needs a music cut very similar to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSxXABXBpJM . That "dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dun-DAH" section we hear in the Anissina&Peizerat program starting at 1:12 is kind of beat which is perfect for Ashley. And for the love of GOD, she needs to have an extended spiral sequence. I'm not sure why her choreographers are ignoring how well she does it (just look at her 2012 program!) and why that kind of sequence is so necessary for her skating. Her last year's program and her current program have brief, uninspiring spirals.
Exactly what me and LeCygne are saying: she needs Dance of the Knights, if she wants to use Prokofiev R&J!!
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
And for the love of GOD, she needs to have an extended spiral sequence. I'm not sure why her choreographers are ignoring how well she does it (just look at her 2012 program!) and why that kind of sequence is so necessary for her skating. Her last year's program and her current program have brief, uninspiring spirals.

I am actually totally baffled by why almost all skaters seem either not to want to do or not to realize they can do a more extended spiral sequence. Julia L is the only skater I can think of whose program I've seen this year who is actually taking advantage of the fact that she can do a nice spiral. More people should take a page out of her book.

Now I might be biased, because I love spirals, but I'm not suggesting that people with uninspiring spirals should prolong their spirals. However, for those who do have good spirals, they should showcase them.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I'm not fond of the cuts of music that she uses. The one really lyrical section is completely lost in the middle of the program, with nothing leading to it or from it, and her movements in that section don't take advantage of it. The rest of the cuts that she uses are so chaotic that I can't get my bearings in the program. Her skating stays in the same hectic coloration almost all the way through and doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

I like her dress, and her jumps are good.
 

flying camel

Medalist
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
I like the program. It is a nice program for the Olympic season. I agree that the middle could use a little more choreography. The beginning and ending are really nice. I do love the spread eagle into the loop jump.

Perhaps some don't like it because it's not the traditional R& J. But that's not Ashley. She tries to be different. I was very happy to see her trying her 3/3. Maybe she can land it cleanly by Skate America. She is the only America senior lady I've seen who is not scared to compete. That takes a lot of nerve.

She has her work cut out for her to try to get on that Olympic podium. The competition will be fearce for those medals.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Exactly what me and LeCygne are saying: she needs Dance of the Knights, if she wants to use Prokofiev R&J!!

It is certainly what is expected but upon 2nd thought I really like the fact they chose not to follow the convention and therefore able to flesh out Juliet's story/emotion a bit more and give it context.

Dance of the knights is certainly the most powerful and well known piece from Prokofiev's R&J, but perhaps more suited to the role of Romeo, or Pair/Dance. By making the familiar appear new is always a welcoming approach in my opinion. In its challenge and ambition (without familiar references, you are suppose to focus more on the performance and the skater which is surely the intention.) In any case, I like this program (or the potential of it) more than I thought, maybe I was expecting so little to start with. With more refinement, polish and more distinguishable directions in interpretation, this program has US Championship written all over it and maybe a bit more? The music cut is interesting with its tonal, shades of emotions and lush quality in segmentation that has unhurried emotional build ups that can work great for a ladies program. In someone like Yuna Kim's hands, this would be absolutely amazing. All things considered this vehicle can work very well for Ashley. I'd say she is about 58% ready in interpretation, which gives her great scope to work towards to build up to something amazing in her Olympic year.

This is Wilson's first R&J this year, the other for Hanyu... which I surprised myself again! I really like!!! What is going on? What happened with the string of disappointment usually comes at the beginning of a season :slink: Then again...i just saw Lori Nichol's work for the great Daisuke Takahashi (weird music cut of great Beatles tracks), then the equilibrium is in balance again! :frown:
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Well, I had no idea she was skating Juliet. The program seemed bare boned and there were sections that were too long with nothing of interest happening. I am really disappointed and quickly lost interest. Please, Ashley, back to the drawing board.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
IMHO all Ashley needs to do is drop the stabbing at the end. There is no reason for her to play at being a love-sick 14-year-old girl or to pantomime a little story. Just skate, land the jumps, and follow the structure of the music as much as possible. :yes:
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
This is supposed to be Romeo and Juliet but where is the passion? Her program reminds me of a film that tries to take on an unique, modern interpretation of a classic work, but deviates too far from the original to be even recognizable.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This is supposed to be Romeo and Juliet but where is the passion? Her program reminds me of a film that tries to take on an unique, modern interpretation of a classic work, but deviates too far from the original to be even recognizable.

I have always figured Carmen as the more outward passionate and lustful classic archetype character, but Juliet is more about the evolving emotion, the romance, where sweet innocence meet inner turmoil to have spiraled wildly out of control; the challenge of devastating impulses despite upper class confinement, refinement one come to expect from a First daughter type of upbringing. Typical struggles with the social restrictions, etiquette, one would expect from the repressive character that is about to risk everything seeking the ultimate liberation with inevitable tragic consequences. Doomed love. (I can see Mathman smirking again.... but i just don't care!! :p)

This certainly pose an interesting challenge in a skating performance. You can do the puppy love romance thing and make make everyone smile with the pleasantries and the superficial, or doing something deeper, challenging and different, that Juliet can exist as a character without Romeo. The music edits seem to support this dichotomy, it would be up to the performer to delve into the character more to deliver the emotions and in particular the key character growth through out the program. It may not be as black and white as Swan lake, but can be just as memorable.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I have always figured Carmen as the more outward passionate and lustful classic archetype character, but Juliet is more about the evolving emotion, the romance, where sweet innocence meet inner turmoil to have spiraled wildly out of control; the challenge of devastating impulses despite upper class confinement, refinement one come to expect from a First daughter type of upbringing. Typical struggles with the social restrictions, etiquette, one would expect from the repressive character that is about to risk everything seeking the ultimate liberation with inevitable tragic consequences. Doomed love. (I can see Mathman smirking again.... but i just don't care!! :p)

This certainly pose an interesting challenge in a skating performance. You can do the puppy love romance thing and make make everyone smile with the pleasantries and the superficial, or doing something deeper, challenging and different, that Juliet can exist as a character without Romeo. The music edits seem to support this dichotomy, it would be up to the performer to delve into the character more to deliver the emotions and in particular the key character growth through out the program. It may not be as black and white as Swan lake, but can be just as memorable.

Hmm then I suggest Ashley watch this performance of another Shakespearean classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtveDWakMFQ
Now that's how you express inner turmoil. :)
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Hmm--the judges should like it. It's dark and serious music, which seems to be standard for all female skaters these days. However, she skated it well, unlike someone like Mirai or Rachael who seemed to be weighed down by the mandatory darkness/seriousness.

I like that it sped up and slowed down a lot, giving her something to work with. I think her dress did not match the music, she needs something darker and more dramatic. It's a pretty dress, maybe she could use it for the short program.
 
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