what to do with consistent wrong edged jump? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

what to do with consistent wrong edged jump?

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
As Mathman points out, a jump with an incorrect edge call really doesn't hit you that hard in terms of GOE.

People who are suggesting skaters downgrade their flips or lutzes to 3S or 3T haven't acknowledged that even with a flutz/lip, it's still more points. Also, there is most definitely an inherent contribution to the PCS marks when you attempt higher technical content. Otherwise skaters would all be performing double jumps and getting 9.00's.
 

penguin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
I used to think the same thing, when skaters who seemingly never bother to fix their problems then "get away with it" year after year. If you can't do a flip (or lutz), then why get the points anyway with a flutz (or lip)? Shouldn't there be a way to prevent skaters who get consistent wrong edge calls from "gaming" the system to allow three lutzes or three flips by sneaking in that flutz or a lip? I have to say that I think the alternative is worse, though - to essentially tell a skater that they're prohibited from TRYING to fix their problems. How will they fix (or be motivated to fix) their technique if some random judge or fan or federation tells them they can't even be allowed the attempt unless it's perfect?

I've since changed my mind, and have a greater appreciation for the finer details of the sport since I started skating as an adult a few years ago. I'm currently learning my (single) lutz and half the time I get it on the correct edge, and half the time it flips over to the inside edge. It's hard enough to pull off the jump, wrong edge be damned, but if I were told that I couldn't try it unless it was perfect... well, then how would I get it perfect in the first place?
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I guess some could argue if you got the wrong edge then it is not a flip or lutz then you should get zero...it's like a sundae if you don't have a topping it is a bowl of icecream and that isn't a sundae at all. lol
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I guess some could argue if you got the wrong edge then it is not a flip or lutz then you should get zero...it's like a sundae if you don't have a topping it is a bowl of icecream and that isn't a sundae at all. lol

Those people are silly. Just because you are on the wrong edge to get 0 for executing that triple jump is harsh.

Frankly I think the system penalizes flutzes/lips adequately. It prevent the jump from getting a good grade of execution and cost them a point or two, but also doesn't completely disregard the skater performing the rest of the jump well.

I also think people make a big deal about it... like they'll put down skaters because they flutz or lip all the time, and really it's like, who cares? Flutz/lipping has only been really scrutinized in the past few years.
 

Selene

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
My opinion is that skaters like Mao, Kanako, Zijun and Adelina not only have flutzes, but horrible flips as well. The power for a flip jump should come from the mohawk/three-turn. These skaters don't generate power that way, but from switching the edge back and forth before taking off. I don't know why the ISU is pretending these girls can do flips or lutzes, because they cannot and their technique is terrible. I would give them deductions for both jumps.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
This is why Kim's fans are the worst kind. Why not bar Kim from competition because she cant do 3loop?
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
I used to think the same thing, when skaters who seemingly never bother to fix their problems then "get away with it" year after year. If you can't do a flip (or lutz), then why get the points anyway with a flutz (or lip)? Shouldn't there be a way to prevent skaters who get consistent wrong edge calls from "gaming" the system to allow three lutzes or three flips by sneaking in that flutz or a lip? I have to say that I think the alternative is worse, though - to essentially tell a skater that they're prohibited from TRYING to fix their problems. How will they fix (or be motivated to fix) their technique if some random judge or fan or federation tells them they can't even be allowed the attempt unless it's perfect?

I've since changed my mind, and have a greater appreciation for the finer details of the sport since I started skating as an adult a few years ago. I'm currently learning my (single) lutz and half the time I get it on the correct edge, and half the time it flips over to the inside edge. It's hard enough to pull off the jump, wrong edge be damned, but if I were told that I couldn't try it unless it was perfect... well, then how would I get it perfect in the first place?

Lots of PRACTICE. It's not like skaters can't practice their 3Lz/3F during their training time.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
This is why Kim's fans are the worst kind. Why not bar Kim from competition because she cant do 3loop?

Hahaha. Very funny. She can do 3Lo, but she doesn't do it b/c it bothers her pelvis/hips. I prefer that she skips this one particular jump and stay healthy.

BTW -- the point was not that everyone must do all 5 different types of triples or WD. But that penalties for improper flips/lutzs should be more severe to force skaters to learn them right.

Miki did fix her lipping issue, BTW. So it is doable. But only if you actually care enough about it to do it. If they don't care enough about it to learn / fix, then they can just omit it from their programs, instead of doing it anyway and get as many points as a properly executed 3F like Mathman said.
 

koheikun90

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
I think the TS just should give credit for jump based on the take off edge instead of the judges giving negative GOE's for a WEED. So for example, if a skater does a lip then give credit for a flip and flutz give credit for a flip. If the skater repeats the same edge more than twice or 2 jumps without the combination, then the TS should give that an invalid jump. This would encourage skaters to either fix their edges, especially on the junior level where the single jump in the SP is designated each year.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Miki did fix her lipping issue, BTW. So it is doable. But only if you actually care enough about it to do it. If they don't care enough about it to learn / fix, then they can just omit it from their programs, instead of doing it anyway and get as many points as a properly executed 3F like Mathman said.

She fixed the lipping, but in the end her flip became highly inconsistent. She eventually gave up doing it altogether. Just like when Mao tried (the first time) to fix her Flutz. It worked until the end of that year and them went downhill before disappearing from her programs altogether.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I used to think the same thing, when skaters who seemingly never bother to fix their problems then "get away with it" year after year. If you can't do a flip (or lutz), then why get the points anyway with a flutz (or lip)? Shouldn't there be a way to prevent skaters who get consistent wrong edge calls from "gaming" the system to allow three lutzes or three flips by sneaking in that flutz or a lip? I have to say that I think the alternative is worse, though - to essentially tell a skater that they're prohibited from TRYING to fix their problems. How will they fix (or be motivated to fix) their technique if some random judge or fan or federation tells them they can't even be allowed the attempt unless it's perfect?

I've since changed my mind, and have a greater appreciation for the finer details of the sport since I started skating as an adult a few years ago. I'm currently learning my (single) lutz and half the time I get it on the correct edge, and half the time it flips over to the inside edge. It's hard enough to pull off the jump, wrong edge be damned, but if I were told that I couldn't try it unless it was perfect... well, then how would I get it perfect in the first place?

penguin, Welcome to Golden Skate! Post long and often!
Thank you for a thoughtful first post.
 

penguin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Thanks dorispulaski for the nice welcome.

Lots of PRACTICE. It's not like skaters can't practice their 3Lz/3F during their training time.

Well obviously I would practice, and so would the elites with flutz/lip issues. But my point was that this all or nothing approach in competitive scoring is not going to help or advance the sport. It might do more to hold it back.
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
I've heard top coaches say that fixing flutzes at the triple level isn't possible in all cases, if not the majority. The technique gets so ingrained that a lot of times the skaters can't even do a proper half lutz. So just because a skater continues to flutz hardly means that they've made no attempt to fix it. Fixing a lip would seem to be more doable than a flutz. In either case, I would much rather have the jump attempted than omitted just as long as they call it correctly. I definitely don't want to see technical content going back to the 1980's. I've also heard it suggested that the lutz and flip be considered the same jump like the toe loop and toe walley. I don't agree with that though because they are distinctly different jumps unlike the latter where it's debatable whether a true toe walley is ever really done or not.
 

marshan

Spectator
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
I've heard top coaches say that fixing flutzes at the triple level isn't possible in all cases, if not the majority.
Half-true, I would say. Reteaching technique at later stages is tough in any sport (ex. tennis player Elena Dementieva and her serve...).
BUT. Reteaching the kid, while technique is not fully settled yet is pretty much possible. Lots of examples here: Rachael Flatt, Julia Lipnitskaya, Yuki Nishino etc. All had flutzes, but than corrected it to a proper edge take off. But you need a coach who knows a real thing about teaching jumping technique. Not so many coaches do((
Personally I believe these edge problems come from elimination of compulsory figures.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Half-true, I would say. Reteaching technique at later stages is tough in any sport (ex. tennis player Elena Dementieva and her serve...).
BUT. Reteaching the kid, while technique is not fully settled yet is pretty much possible. Lots of examples here: Rachael Flatt, Julia Lipnitskaya, Yuki Nishino etc. All had flutzes, but than corrected it to a proper edge take off. But you need a coach who knows a real thing about teaching jumping technique. Not so many coaches do((
Personally I believe these edge problems come from elimination of compulsory figures.

Genuine question. Don't Rachael Flatt and Julia Lipnitskaya still flutz??
 

EricRohmer

On the Ice
Joined
May 31, 2010
Current rule is much more profitable to skaters whose weak/not-mastered jumps are 3Lz or 3F than to skaters whose weak/not-mastered jumps are 3Lo or 3S.
Consistent flutzers/lippers can do 7-triple program without breaking the Zayak rule doing actually three 3Lz(3F)s in LP or repeating three kinds of triples, while latters have to choose between to fail/fall frequently at weak jump(ex. Yamaguchi) and to be restricted to 6-triple program by omitting 3S or 3Lo(ex. Kim).

And, IMO, the more skaters (who have a wrong edge problem) care about jumping at the correct edge, the more the jumps get inconsistent(ex. Ando).
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Half-true, I would say. Reteaching technique at later stages is tough in any sport (ex. tennis player Elena Dementieva and her serve...).
BUT. Reteaching the kid, while technique is not fully settled yet is pretty much possible. Lots of examples here: Rachael Flatt, Julia Lipnitskaya, Yuki Nishino etc. All had flutzes, but than corrected it to a proper edge take off. But you need a coach who knows a real thing about teaching jumping technique. Not so many coaches do((
Personally I believe these edge problems come from elimination of compulsory figures.

It certainly seems as if school figures imparted an edge control that many skaters of today lack. When the world's top skaters have such flaws in their jumps, something seems to be institutionally wrong. I suspect it isn't just skaters who lost out when school figures disappeared. Coaches also lost some command of technique. Presumably all these kids with flutzes and lips had coaches. Did those people not notice, through years of 6 A.M. skating lessons, that their students had such a fundamental error? Or did they just not know how to teach a pure, correct jump?
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Genuine question. Don't Rachael Flatt and Julia Lipnitskaya still flutz??

Julia does, but she is better than she used to be (i.e. can do a proper lutz sometimes) (or at least could last season). That said, she got edge calls on all her lutzes this past weekend.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I think the TS just should give credit for jump based on the take off edge instead of the judges giving negative GOE's for a WEED. So for example, if a skater does a lip then give credit for a flip and flutz give credit for a flip. If the skater repeats the same edge more than twice or 2 jumps without the combination, then the TS should give that an invalid jump. This would encourage skaters to either fix their edges, especially on the junior level where the single jump in the SP is designated each year.

Then they have to watch the number of that jump because they can't or shouldn't get credit for ie. 3 or 4 flips because their lutz was not off the right edge.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Then they have to watch the number of that jump because they can't or shouldn't get credit for ie. 3 or 4 flips because their lutz was not off the right edge.

I think it's about crediting the skater with what they intended. The same with when a skater falls on the second jump that the skater repeats and gets SEQ on it, instead of the jump not counted at all because it wasn't done in combination. The benefit of the doubt should go to the skater.

In most cases, you can tell that the skater intends a certain jump.
 
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