The Skating Lesson - Hating on the Shibs and Davis/White as people | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The Skating Lesson - Hating on the Shibs and Davis/White as people

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Conversely, don't expect every one else to pick up a stone to toss at TSL.

Frankly, the "gay propaganda" issue is turning out to be one of THE major pre-stories of Sochi. I wouldn't trust a reporter's ability if he or she did NOT ask the skaters their opinion on the subject. Of course the skaters have a perfect right to evade answering the question, but shouldn't be surprised that a non-answer is, in this case, newsworthy as well. Geez!

?????

Never expected that, no. Don't need to. TSL make themselves unpopular enough.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I think it's legit to raise it as an issue, but the manner/language in which TSL make their point often comes off sounding mean-spirited and full of self-entitlement. How they criticize others reflects badly on them and maybe they ought to be a bit more media-savvy about how they present themselves.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
This. They need to read between the lines. Some skaters are more diplomatic than others. If they took Wagner's stance they would draw attention to that, if they said what Abbott said, they would come under fire. Instead of criticizing those who won't go to war, we should focus more on those who are brave enough like Wagner. D/W do not want to get involved and while words of support would be nice it is also their prerogative to choose not to get involved. Bottom line: I don't want somebody to speak up because they are pressured to or feel compelled; I want them to do it out of their own courage and genuinely coming from their own hearts.

Very eloquently said. I agree that Ashley was not trying to make a political statement with her words, but simply acting out of her own personal convictions and beliefs. She should get props for that.

Likewise, let's be reminded that people live out their convictions and beliefs differently. Not everyone does it by making some public declaration.

I guess the part that bothered me more was Dave's rant where he called Meryl an idiot "and totally unlikeable" regarding her answer for some USFSA fluff video was their current FD music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0LnZIU-WVs#t=01m50s. I mean it's like he was digging up every past example to prove his point that Meryl was an unrelatable person.

(Yes, I did go watch that part. Honestly his rant on Meryl was just plain cruel. It's one thing to question her answer at an interview, but calling her "unlikeable" and "an idiot," especially on something completely unrelated was uncalled for).
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Dave is reacting emotionally, in pain, angry that this is happening because he is gay and is fearful for his friends and himself. Could not a law happen here? He is reacting negatively to those who will not speak up in front of a camera, while they are very close to gay skaters. He has his own blog. It apparently is no longer complimentary of those big name skaters who will not speak out.. Clearly he is hurt and afraid at this frightening Russian law and ramifications in other places.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Very eloquently said. I agree that Ashley was not trying to make a political statement with her words, but simply acting out of her own personal convictions and beliefs. She should get props for that.

Likewise, let's be reminded that people live out their convictions and beliefs differently. Not everyone does it by making some public declaration.

I guess the part that bothered me more was Dave's rant where he called Meryl an idiot "and totally unlikeable" regarding her answer for some USFSA fluff video was their current FD music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0LnZIU-WVs#t=01m50s. I mean it's like he was digging up every past example to prove his point that Meryl was an unreliable person.

(Yes, I did go watch that part. Honestly his rant on Meryl was just plain cruel. It's one thing to question her answer at an interview, but calling her "unlikeable" and "an idiot," especially on something completely unrelated was uncalled for).

Yes.... agreed. It would be fine if TSL is just a fan hobby with no pretensions for legitimacy. It seems that both Kirk and Lease are aiming for legitimate gigs as commentators on major networks. They might even think they're so "witty" and insightful that Icenetwork or whatever will feel compelled to give them their own show. They are deluded. It's a big sign that the USFA or whatever didn't give them press passes (or whatever that little drama was about), and they and/or their cronies posted a thread (which was closed) about how unfair it was. It's not surprising at all. They are not going to be mainstream and legitimate with the way they provoke, mock, and criticize skaters. They are obviously fake, hypocritical, and pretentious, smiling and nodding to guests' comments on their shows and then turning around to mock the same guests on another segment. Keep this up and there will not be any more willing guests.

I'd pay good money to watch Chris, Simon, Nicky, and other interesting commentators to do a version of "This and That," but TSL is just amateurish crap.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Why people still find these two remotely interesting baffles me.

I have never found them remotedly interesting. At best background noise, and at worst nasty and vile. I occasionaly watch when they have someone I really really like on, but just to hear that person, certainly not to hear Dave and Jenny. I especialy love those like Debi Thomas who basically talk over them and do 95% of the talking for that show so I dont have to listen to Dave and Jenny much. Especialy since Debi Thomas and everything she had to say was simply captivating and worth 30 times more than anything Kirk and Dave would ever have to say.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I have never found them remotedly interesting. At best background noise, and at worst nasty and vile. I occasionaly watch when they have someone I really really like on, but just to hear that person, certainly not to hear Dave and Jenny. I especialy love those like Debi Thomas who basically talk over them and do 95% of the talking for that show so I dont have to listen to Dave and Jenny much. Especialy since Debi Thomas and everything she had to say was simply captivating and worth 30 times more than anything Kirk and Dave would ever have to say.

What they are - attention whores and social rejects. They haven't amounted to anything in life and thus this is the only thing that makes them feel special.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
This. They need to read between the lines. Some skaters are more diplomatic than others. If they took Wagner's stance they would draw attention to that, if they said what Abbott said, they would come under fire. Instead of criticizing those who won't go to war, we should focus more on those who are brave enough like Wagner. D/W do not want to get involved and while words of support would be nice it is also their prerogative to choose not to get involved. Bottom line: I don't want somebody to speak up because they are pressured to or feel compelled; I want them to do it out of their own courage and genuinely coming from their own hearts.

For once I totally agree with you!
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Dave is reacting emotionally, in pain, angry that this is happening because he is gay and is fearful for his friends and himself. Could not a law happen here? He is reacting negatively to those who will not speak up in front of a camera, while they are very close to gay skaters. He has his own blog. It apparently is no longer complimentary of those big name skaters who will not speak out.. Clearly he is hurt and afraid at this frightening Russian law and ramifications in other places.

If what Meryl and Charlie said (or didn't say) bothered him so much, why didn't he approach them directly? I would have loved it if he reached out them for an interview and perhaps asked for clarification on what they said. They were so great in being sensitive to Mary Beth's discomfort in talking about her eating disorder, I find it odd they wouldn't provide the same courtesy with Meryl and Charlie.

Also Max gave a non-answer as well. Why didn't they rail on him? Instead Dave said he was real because he said he wanted to skate to 50 Cent in that same music fluff video. (For the record, I don't have a problem with Max's answer to either question; just pointing out a double standard).
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
What they are - attention whores and social rejects. They haven't amounted to anything in life and thus this is the only thing that makes them feel special.

ITA, and while I would usually feel mean saying or even agreeing to that about someone, but in their case not as much since Dave Lease especialy has been incredibly nasty for years, making fun of and ridiculing many great athletes on his blog. Fumie Suguri was one of his favorite targets for years, he couldnt stop going on about someone who was simply doing what she loved to do, as silly as it might be at this point.

Jenny Kirk ridiculing Cohen and her comeback at every turn was just about as bad. Especialy speaking of someone who kicked her butt everytime for many years (actually that was probably the root of the whole matter). Someone who never did better than 15th at Worlds writing in 5 seperate blog entries that 4 time World and Olympic medalist Sasha "could not handle pressure". Even better she said in one article that Sasha would be viewed as a dissapointment and failure once again if she somehow failed to win gold in Vancouver (while everyone with a brain knew even winning a bronze in Vancouver would be a miracle for Sasha by that point).
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
.... If I had a legitimate shot at winning OGM in Sochi, I'd avoid the summit like the plague. Why did they go? Was it mandatory?

Athletes would be foolish to skip the media summit, whether it is mandatory or not (I do not know the answer).

Overall, the media summit is a great opportunity for an athlete to promote her/his sport; to promote Team USA; and yes, to promote herself or himself.

(If it is in fact mandatory, I would not consider it cruel and unusual punishment. Quite the contrary, for the reasons above. And if an athlete wants the privilege of representing the USA on the field of play -- and of receiving support from the USOC and its official sponsors -- I think the USOC has the right to expect her or him to serve as an ambassador.)
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
I just can NOT with some of you haters. BlackPack, your hatred of Dave and/or Jenny is just BLARING through.

Someone you STILL can NOT separate the ability to be "Professional" when interviewing someone and the ability to give an opinion during an opinion piece. A reporters/interviewers job is to ask questions and get answers, NOT TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS.

I don't know HOW many times I'm going to have to say this until some of you can get it into your thick skulls: This is WHY there is a different tone between their "Journalistic" interviews, and their "Editorial" This and That. Some of you people are ALL OR NOTHING and it is so very maddening to me. You don't like their opinions, FINE, don't watch the This and That stuff. Don't watch ANY of their stuff. Bottomline, people are still doing interviews with them.

Now, Mrs. P, can they come off as harsh? Sure, I can see where you get that. I don't agree, but I can see how it bristles some feathers. Honestly, I feel like they bring of level of realness to figure skating that is refreshing.

So, now by all means, someone please post a stupid comment about how I'm really Dave in disguise (again). I find it so very hilariously telling on the people who post those things.

EDIT: I also find it the HEIGHT of hypocrisy to be nasty and mean to these two on a board where you are semi-anonymous. At least these two have opinions they stand behind with their names. The cognitive dissonance would be hilarious if it wasn't sad.
 

spikydurian

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
I've notice that the word "honest" is used in all sorts of odd ways these days. When someone makes some uncensored comment, it's referred to as "honesty," and when someone is reserved or (Heaven help us) repressed, that person is castigated for being "dishonest." Honesty involves ethical behavior. An honest person keeps his hands out of the till, accepts the blame when he makes a mistake, and doesn't spread lies about other people. People don't have to divulge full and complete opinions about every topic on cue in order to qualify as honest.
:agree:

I stopped reading and listening to TSL’s interviews for obvious reasons (no matter how interested I am in the interviewee). ;)

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, vocally or quietly. Why should one be judged harshly just because one does not conform to the views or react in the same manner as some others? Do we all owe each other an explanation on our behavior and thoughts if these behavior and thoughts do no harm to anyone?

It is sheer hypocrisy to judge others when it suits but not when it comes to self. Let us live by the old adage, don’t do onto others what you don’t want others to do unto you.


brighphoton said:
It is okay if Scott Hamilton, the Shibs, Meryl and Charlie, and Virtue and Moir, Evan Lysaceck, Gracie Gold, Agnes Z, and countless others at media summits turn a blind eye toward possible mistreatment of their fellow gay athletes at the Sochi Games.

It is NOT okay if David Lease and Jenny Kirk express their negative opinion about that on their blog.

Yes, TSL is entitled to their opinions. BUT … when they used their interview vehicles to put their guests in uncomfortable scenario, and paint them as deficient in character, it is unprofessional. These skaters are amateur athletes. They are not paid professionals and politicians. Most of them are supported by their parents and families in their training. Who would want to subject their daughters and sons to such bullying?
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Athletes would be foolish to skip the media summit, whether it is mandatory or not (I do not know the answer).

Overall, the media summit is a great opportunity for an athlete to promote her/his sport; to promote Team USA; and yes, to promote herself or himself.

(If it is in fact mandatory, I would not consider it cruel and unusual punishment. Quite the contrary, for the reasons above. And if an athlete wants the privilege of representing the USA on the field of play -- and of receiving support from the USOC and its official sponsors -- I think the USOC has the right to expect her or him to serve as an ambassador.)

Also I think this is a good time to point out that Phil Hersh was not particularly critical of Meryl and Charlie's answer, either in his news story on Twitter. He simply made the point that the reluctance of skaters to speak out made Ashley's declaration stand out even more:

Such reluctance makes Wagner’s dignified and rational expressions of dismay seem even stronger.

I've searched on Twitter to see if anyone has commented on Meryl and Charlie's statement and haven't found much beside people commenting on TSL's post. It seems the outrage, at last from what I can see, has been limited to the skating community.
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Yes, TSL is entitled to their opinions. BUT … when they used their interview vehicles to put their guests in uncomfortable scenario, and paint them as deficient in character, it is unprofessional. These skaters are amateur athletes. They are not paid professionals and politicians. Most of them are supported by their parents and families in their training. Who would want to subject their daughters and sons to such bullying?

I'm sorry, but asking tough questions is NOT unprofessional. Also, they've never cut anyone off if they've given a response they disagree with, and if you're referring to Scott Hamilton... he deserved it, that answer was terrible AND he has a history of these things. However, if you're talking about other questions, by all means, give me examples and I'll go rewatch and judge for myself.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I just can NOT with some of you haters. BlackPack, your hatred of Dave and/or Jenny is just BLARING through.

Someone you STILL can NOT separate the ability to be "Professional" when interviewing someone and the ability to give an opinion during an opinion piece. A reporters/interviewers job is to ask questions and get answers, NOT TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS.

I don't know HOW many times I'm going to have to say this until some of you can get it into your thick skulls: This is WHY there is a different tone between their "Journalistic" interviews, and their "Editorial" This and That. Some of you people are ALL OR NOTHING and it is so very maddening to me. You don't like their opinions, FINE, don't watch the This and That stuff. Don't watch ANY of their stuff. Bottomline, people are still doing interviews with them.

Now, Mrs. P, can they come off as harsh? Sure, I can see where you get that. I don't agree, but I can see how it bristles some feathers. Honestly, I feel like they bring of level of realness to figure skating that is refreshing.

So, now by all means, someone please post a stupid comment about how I'm really Dave in disguise (again). I find it so very hilariously telling on the people who post those things.

EDIT: I also find it the HEIGHT of hypocrisy to be nasty and mean to these two on a board where you are semi-anonymous. At least these two have opinions they stand behind with their names. The cognitive dissonance would be hilarious if it wasn't sad.

Well, it is highly probable that Lease hides behind various nicks and posts random nonsense. He has years of history doing so. If anyone is going to be provocative or plain vindictive, then be prepared for backlash. Fair is fair.

What is behind your blind loyalty to Lease and Kirk? If they can backstab esteemed guests, then they can do the same to their "friends" and supporters. You don't need to be nice to mean girls.

OK, so how are they NOT attention whores and social rejects who don't amount to anything?

As pangtongfan said, Kirk was constantly berating Cohen for crumbling under pressure when she herself couldn't beat Cohen. Lease's claim to fame is his Aunt Joyce blog which is a precursor to the bitchiness of TSL. They're making a career out of berating others, while they couldn't make one for themselves.

This IS a semi-anonymous forum. No one is supposed to post his or her private details.
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Well, it is highly probable that Lease hides behind various nicks and posts random nonsense. He has years of history doing so. If anyone is going to be provocative or plain vindictive, then be prepared for backlash. Fair is fair.

What is behind your blind loyalty to Lease and Kirk? If they can backstab esteemed guests, then they can do the same to their "friends" and supporters. You don't need to be nice to mean girls.

OK, so how are they NOT attention whores and social rejects who don't amount to anything?

As pangtongfan said, Kirk was constantly berating Cohen for crumbling under pressure when she herself couldn't beat Cohen. Lease's claim to fame is his Aunt Joyce blog which is a precursor to the bitchiness of TSL. They're making a career out of berating others, while they couldn't make one for themselves.

This IS a semi-anonymous forum. No one is supposed to post his or her private details.

The fact that you can't see that you are doing the same thing you accuse them of... or that you think it is ok, is telling.

I'm sorry, but Cohen DID crumble under pressure. REPEATEDLY. The fact that she never won a world championship, and only ONE nationals, is telling.

"Attention Whores and Social Rejects?" Really? They're putting out content online. It's the new wave of journalism, and they're doing it quite well for being a home-spun operation. Looking at Dave's personal Facebook, it seems like he's pretty good on friends. You're the one who is making personal attacks and hiding behind a screen name. I tweet regularly to them, on my real name, and post regularly on their Facebook, with my real name. I'm not hiding anything. Also, I'm pretty sure Dave has a job outside of the TSL stuff, so that "amounts to nothing" is, yet again, baseless drivel. Congrats.

I don't have blind loyalty. I find their content enjoyable, and as such, I will defend it against people making personal attacks. You obviously have some prejudice for Dave based on the AJ blog. Maybe you should deal with and realize that before painting everything he's doing now with a broad brush. The fact that you can't find the nuance in their criticisms says more about you than them.

The fact that most people on these boards don't understand that you can hold multiple opinions about people at the same time is: 1) Sad and 2) Telling.
 

Puchi

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
BUT … when they used their interview vehicles to put their guests in uncomfortable scenario, and paint them as deficient in character, it is unprofessional.


When did this happen? Perhaps I missed those interviews?
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
What they are - attention whores and social rejects. They haven't amounted to anything in life and thus this is the only thing that makes them feel special.

Well isn't that the very definition of the pot calling the kettle black. But at least Mr Lease isn't doing it from behind the relative safety of a screen name.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
I just can NOT with some of you haters. BlackPack, your hatred of Dave and/or Jenny is just BLARING through.

Someone you STILL can NOT separate the ability to be "Professional" when interviewing someone and the ability to give an opinion during an opinion piece. A reporters/interviewers job is to ask questions and get answers, NOT TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS.

I don't know HOW many times I'm going to have to say this until some of you can get it into your thick skulls: This is WHY there is a different tone between their "Journalistic" interviews, and their "Editorial" This and That. Some of you people are ALL OR NOTHING and it is so very maddening to me. You don't like their opinions, FINE, don't watch the This and That stuff. Don't watch ANY of their stuff. Bottomline, people are still doing interviews with them.

Now, Mrs. P, can they come off as harsh? Sure, I can see where you get that. I don't agree, but I can see how it bristles some feathers. Honestly, I feel like they bring of level of realness to figure skating that is refreshing.

So, now by all means, someone please post a stupid comment about how I'm really Dave in disguise (again). I find it so very hilariously telling on the people who post those things.

EDIT: I also find it the HEIGHT of hypocrisy to be nasty and mean to these two on a board where you are semi-anonymous. At least these two have opinions they stand behind with their names. The cognitive dissonance would be hilarious if it wasn't sad.

Thank you zschultz. I'm trying to figure out WHAT THE HELL they said to provoke this hysteria. Yeah, they were tough on Meryl this week. Big deal, they love Meryl, but she did sound like an idiot. Next week they will love on her. I prefer this kind of commentary. It isn't biased, it's very opinionated for sure. But I'm tired of 'the rules' for narrators. If someone stinks, say it. It might make them change or tweak their programs. I think too many here grew up with helicopter moms who fought against any perceived slight against their precious ones. Many people grew up with constructive criticism, and guess what we earned degrees, masters, doctorates, made it to the top echelons of our fields or sports. Many of us want to hear it. The Shibs? I didn't even think they were harsh on them. In fact, I didn't really hear a harsh thing at all. And also, this was their op-ed so let them say what they want. I agreed with most of it. The level of vitriol to TSL is amusing. Just don't watch it if it makes your blood boil to hysteria. Problem solved. I will say that after a year and a half of IJS boredom and coma, that Jenny and Dave got me interested again in skating. So thank you Jenny and Dave, you are doing a great job.
 
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