2013-2014 Skate America - Ladies Championshps | Page 4 | Golden Skate

2013-2014 Skate America - Ladies Championshps

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I suppose that makes sense, as it benefits NBC to have a marquee name at the Olympics, and Ashley has the best shot at a medal of any American singles skater.

It also makes it easier to "villify" anyone non American who wins over an American. It's the eville system at work. NBC is stuck in the Cold War era - especially when they talk pairs or ice dance... I'm sure they could somehow hate on Japan for the ladies...

it will be interesting to see how they treat Canada for Men's skating... they've been big fans of Chan... but this is the Olympics... so either they forget about Team USA because there's no way we'll podium and put all their eggs in Chan's basket or...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Tinichelle said:
I truly believe NBC wants it that way.
May be. But Scott could have tried to convince his bosses that there was a better story line. Better, that is, than, oh this crazy sport, I don't know if the judges in their whimsy or malice will give it to the American girl (yay!) or the foreigner (boo!)

They could have played it as, here is a chance for the American champion to measure herself against the two-time world champion and reigning Olympic silver medalist, Mao Asada of Japan. Wagner gave an excellent performance, and Asada left the door open by falling on her biggest element - a triple Axel, which no other lady attempts. But Asada had a decisive edge in spin levels and fundamental edging skills, which translates into enough points in the scoring system to keep her safely ahead. And here are the scores...yup, this reflects the gap in the blah, blah, and blah. These are the areas that Wagner needs to focus on as she continues her quest for a third straight U.S. championship and a possible Olympic medal for the good ol' U.S. of A.
 
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Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
We don't know what the NBC powers that be want, nor what Scott may or may not have said in the conferences. For all we know they've told Scott there are other commentators they could get that would play their game... but Scott has admitted in the past that he has and will do what the director tells him to - even if he doesn't completely agree.

I'm just inclined to think NBC doesn't like the change - because the powers at be don't understand it - so they don't want to support it. Nevermind THEIR outcry in 2002 is what gave major leverage to this system to be put in place.
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
I agree that Scott and Sandra were partial to Ashley, but honestly it is really hard to commentate these events live. As Scott mentioned, he hasn't a clue where these skaters will end up, even after they perform. It's almost funny to watch the commentators guess wrong at the placements and then not express any surprise that they were so wrong. Two programs can look identical but one with four URs can be 20 points lower. In addition, falls aren't as bad as they used to be; Ashley's lutz probably looked fine to the casual viewer yet it scored lower than Mao's fall on the 3A (not counting the fall penalty).

ITA. I think it's very complicated to commentate these events live.

For example: Asada in this SA. When I watched Asada's FS, I was not sure what scores she would get from her second 3F. To me, it seemed to be underrotated, but in the end, there was no underrotation call in the protocole. Her cautious performance after a hard fall on 3A didn't affect Asada's PCS.

I'm not a fan of Scott and Sandra, but it's understandable the way they do their jobs.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
ITA. I think it's very complicated to commentate these events live.

For example: Asada in this SA. When I watched Asada's FS, I was not sure what scores she would get from her second 3F. To me, it seemed to be underrotated, but in the end, there was no underrotation call in the protocole. Her cautious performance after a hard fall on 3A didn't affect Asada's PCS.

I'm not a fan of Scott and Sandra, but it's understandable the way they do their jobs.

I know what you mean. I remember watching 2013 JWorlds and the British commentators thought Samantha Cesario was going to medal and she did not because of UR that were not visible to them. However, Scott and Sandra know that Mao has better spins and skating skills than Ashley and they should have said that, because the casual viewer may not know that.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Mao Asada deserved to win the competition. She was the best over the SP+LP and I agree with FlattFan in that it seems, to me, that she has improved in both overall skating skills and speed. This was not a great skate from her, but aside from the fall on the 3A it was pretty clean to the naked eye. I'd say she was about 2-3 points overscored in the PCS in the LP.

Ashley Wagner...well, I like her as a person and think she's making great progress on upping her technical content (3F+3T, just like she said she would!) as well as landing her jumps with such steadiness and confidence...but her programs this year are so blah. :( Oh, Mr. Wilson, you are amazing but this is such a dud of a Long Program and her SP makes her look like a Shae-Lynn wannabe without Shae-Lynn's natural sensuality but injected with Tonya Harding style. I don't intend to be mean, but this is my honest opinion. I'm so torn, because she's improved greatly in one area and yet disappointed in another. And unfortunately, it's true that her overall basics aren't at Asada's level.

I most enjoyed Elizaveta Tuktamysheva's LP. She botches up her SP but comes dashing out in the Long and performing like a diva (in a good way.) I'm glad Mishin is proud of his fiery little student. It's hard to tell whether her ice coverage has improved, though, from the videos. I remember that was an obvious weakness for her a few years ago at Skate Canada.
 

wordsworthgirl

Medalist
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
May be. But Scott could have tried to convince his bosses that there was a better story line. Better, that is, than, oh this crazy sport, I don't know if the judges in their whimsy or malice will give it to the American girl (yay!) or the foreigner (boo!)

They could have played it as, here is a chance for the American champion to measure herself against the two-time world champion and reigning Olympic silver medalist, Mao Asada of Japan. Wagner gave an excellent performance, and Asada left the door open by falling on her biggest element - a triple Axel, which no other lady attempts. But Asada had a decisive edge in spin levels and fundamental edging skills, which translates into enough points in the scoring system to keep her safely ahead. And here are the scores...yup, this reflects the gap in the blah, blah, and blah. These are the areas that Wagner needs to focus on as she continues her quest for a third straight U.S. championship and a possible Olympic medal for the good ol' U.S. of A.

Mathman, I LOVE this! Exactly right. Wish *you* could be commenting!! Seriously, I think you have outlined not only an interesting and compelling storyline but also the CORRECT storyline!
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
May be. But Scott could have tried to convince his bosses that there was a better story line. Better, that is, than, oh this crazy sport, I don't know if the judges in their whimsy or malice will give it to the American girl (yay!) or the foreigner (boo!)

They could have played it as, here is a chance for the American champion to measure herself against the two-time world champion and reigning Olympic silver medalist, Mao Asada of Japan. Wagner gave an excellent performance, and Asada left the door open by falling on her biggest element - a triple Axel, which no other lady attempts. But Asada had a decisive edge in spin levels and fundamental edging skills, which translates into enough points in the scoring system to keep her safely ahead. And here are the scores...yup, this reflects the gap in the blah, blah, and blah. These are the areas that Wagner needs to focus on as she continues her quest for a third straight U.S. championship and a possible Olympic medal for the good ol' U.S. of A.

Why, Mathman, you made that sound really exciting... and I do believe I almost felt a bit teary-eyed... and I'm not even American! :)
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
I'm so confused. Why are people saying Mao didn't skate well here? She landed the 3A in the SP; yes it was 2-footed but it wasn't a disruptive/jarring 2-foot landing. She finished out the rest of the gorgeous program cleanly. Yes, she fell on her 3A in the FS and took out some of the difficulty but she landed all 5 triple jumps she attempted and got level 4s on everything...how is that not skating well? She didn't get < on any of her triples other than the 3A...the program was very nice and suits her well.

Considering Mao has never been a strong beginning-of-the-season skater and seeing as how she didn't land 5 triples until nationals last year, I thought this was a wonderful start to her season. Yes she was a little overscored but I do think the outcome was 100% correct. What am I missing?:confused:
 

ucrgirl

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
^Scott's idea of helping the audience understand the scoring is to say, boy this new system sure is complicatted, every little thing you do is worth a tenth of a point, you pretty much have to be Einstein with a big computer to tell who skated well or poorly. He cannot in real life be as befuddled as he pretends to be on the air. This just makes viewers think that figure skating judging is some sort of arcane alchemy, which is a very misleading idea that is harmful to the sport.

I was watching baseball with my husband and was floored by how coherent their announcers are. It is really only skating and gymnastics announcers that can't explain the scoring. It IS complicated but it is ALSO explainable. (My husband was in turn shocked by how useless figureskating commentators are.) At the very least they could easliy present a discussion on seaon bests for TES and PCS.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I was watching baseball with my husband and was floored by how coherent their announcers are. It is really only skating and gymnastics announcers that can't explain the scoring. It IS complicated but it is ALSO explainable. (My husband was in turn shocked by how useless figureskating commentators are.) At the very least they could easliy present a discussion on seaon bests for TES and PCS.

Great points. There's a lot of data now with IJS. When you watch basketball, baseball and football, there's a lot of time at the beginning of a competition spent on looking at past performance stats. There's also a lot of talk about "style of play" that isn't quite tangible but can explain reasons for success.

For example, during the NCAA Championship game last year, commentators talked about how Louisville's strategy was about full-court press while U. of Michigan were a finesse team that knew how to handle the ball well. That's not a stat, but very useful information as you watch those teams play.

It would have been beneficial to talk about that while Mao had a tendency to UR jumps sometimes or doesn't have a 3-3 that her skating skills, choreography, etc gives her considerable higher scores in PCS. Or talk about how Ashley struggled with spin levels last season, which is an area that Mao does.

Instead they focus solely on one or two elements (i.e. 3-3 or 3A) so when they don't quite succeed, then people assume it's all over.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
My husband has watched a lot of skating, starting in 1981, mostly as a captive viewer, but occasionally a performance really lights his fire.

He loved Jason Brown's LP, even though it was flawed, and he knew Jason would not medal with it. He said he could watch Jason skate all day, and so can I.He spontaneously said, the sport of skating needs more of that. (I promise, I didn't prompt him at all.)

He admitted to liking D&W's FD, too, but not nearly as much as their Giselle SD, which was his last year's fav program, and of which he said, if T&D did a Polka, that would have been it. (Of course, T&D are his all time skating favs, so he said T&D would have done it a bit better :) )

He didn't get into any of the ladies' performances, but NBC didn't show Cesario.

He thought Machida deserved to win, liked the program, but didn't go wild over it.
 

Nigel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Great points. There's a lot of data now with IJS. When you watch basketball, baseball and football, there's a lot of time at the beginning of a competition spent on looking at past performance stats. There's also a lot of talk about "style of play" that isn't quite tangible but can explain reasons for success.

For example, during the NCAA Championship game last year, commentators talked about how Louisville's strategy was about full-court press while U. of Michigan were a finesse team that knew how to handle the ball well. That's not a stat, but very useful information as you watch those teams play.

It would have been beneficial to talk about that while Mao had a tendency to UR jumps sometimes or doesn't have a 3-3 that her skating skills, choreography, etc gives her considerable higher scores in PCS. Or talk about how Ashley struggled with spin levels last season, which is an area that Mao does.

Instead they focus solely on one or two elements (i.e. 3-3 or 3A) so when they don't quite succeed, then people assume it's all over.

I haven't had the chance to listen to Lori Nichol do commentary for Canadian coverage of events, but does she have the opportunity to explain the IJS while she is doing commentary? I think NBC needs someone similar...not just a choreographer, but someone who truly understands how these programs are constructed, the nuances of GOEs, and is articulate. Tanith is making strides in this area, but still doesn't quite completely grasp the finer details of singles and pairs. If NBC took the approach and hired someone who has just left the sport and therefore current in IJS to cover each discipline, it would better serve them to help explain the sport and potentially keep the fan base alive. They could also provide video references to elements....ie what are the bullet points for layback spins, etc. It would help explain the individual elements, and even leading into coverage of the event, they could show side by side coverage of an element, ie pairs lifts, and explain why one team would typically score more points on a platter lift vs another due to GOE, transistions, etc.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Michael Weiss, IMO, is a good fit - he definitely understood the CoP while he was skating - Don Laws his coach knows it VERY well... I've enjoyed what little commentary he's gotten to do.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
If NBC took the approach and hired someone who has just left the sport and therefore current in IJS to cover each discipline, it would better serve them to help explain the sport and potentially keep the fan base alive. They could also provide video references to elements....ie what are the bullet points for layback spins, etc.

It's a tough balance, because I think most casual figure skating fans don't want to sit through the complicated explanations. The judging system just isn't approachable enough for the casual viewer. OTOH, for die hard skating fans it's great because the right things seem to be rewarded (i.e. things like great spins and footwork can make a difference now, whereas an extra triple could make up for bad spins and footwork under the old system). I don't know the answer to how the ISU can engage more viewers.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I'm so confused. Why are people saying Mao didn't skate well here? She landed the 3A in the SP; yes it was 2-footed but it wasn't a disruptive/jarring 2-foot landing. She finished out the rest of the gorgeous program cleanly. Yes, she fell on her 3A in the FS and took out some of the difficulty but she landed all 5 triple jumps she attempted and got level 4s on everything...how is that not skating well? She didn't get < on any of her triples other than the 3A...the program was very nice and suits her well.

Considering Mao has never been a strong beginning-of-the-season skater and seeing as how she didn't land 5 triples until nationals last year, I thought this was a wonderful start to her season. Yes she was a little overscored but I do think the outcome was 100% correct. What am I missing?:confused:

Maybe because some people did not get to watch the SP? It would be nice to broadcast the SP. I'm one of those fans who liked many things about the old system. However, I do remember under the old system, if a skater wanted to beat a favorite coming into a competition, the skater in the lead had to make mistakes and the other one has to skate an amazing performance. Ashley didn't fall but she also did not give an amazing performance in the free skate. Actually, if we we are talking about who landed the most jumps. Meite landed 7 jumps in the free and she didn't even medal.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Ashley Wagner...well, I like her as a person and think she's making great progress on upping her technical content (3F+3T, just like she said she would!) as well as landing her jumps with such steadiness and confidence...but her programs this year are so blah. :( Oh, Mr. Wilson, you are amazing but this is such a dud of a Long Program and her SP makes her look like a Shae-Lynn wannabe without Shae-Lynn's natural sensuality but injected with Tonya Harding style. I don't intend to be mean, but this is my honest opinion. I'm so torn, because she's improved greatly in one area and yet disappointed in another. And unfortunately, it's true that her overall basics aren't at Asada's level.

I think the SP is a good direction for her and a very good base, it just needs some tune-ups here and there that should come as the season progresses. That ending pose needs to change - the way she puts her arms straight down at the side is reminiscent of the cheesiest of Nancy Kerrigan's skating and not fitting for this program. :laugh:

As for her LP, the first 35 seconds and the last 35 seconds are good/great. The rest is underwhelming or completely bland (in part because of the music). I'm going to start a new thread tomorrow that details how I would fix this program.

I dislike both of Asada's programs. They are unimaginative choreographically and the interpretation is poor - most everything is just a setup for technical elements that only incidentally try to have something to do with the music. Asada performs the programs pretty well, but it's too bad that so much of her potential magic is missing. One detail I do like in her SP is the upright position she takes in her combination spin - that DOES fit the music really well. Unfortunately, it doesn't count as a level feature, so there's probably a good chance her team will change it to the ugly tuck sit position (like she does in the Long Program) to get that extra .5 base value....sigh.
 
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