2013-2014 Skate America - Ladies Championshps

kwanatic · Oct 22, 2013

miki88 said:
Maybe because some people did not get to watch the SP? It would be nice to broadcast the SP. I'm one of those fans who liked many things about the old system. However, I do remember under the old system, if a skater wanted to beat a favorite coming into a competition, the skater in the lead had to make mistakes and the other one has to skate an amazing performance. Ashley didn't fall but she also did not give an amazing performance in the free skate. Actually, if we we are talking about who landed the most jumps. Meite landed 7 jumps in the free and she didn't even medal.

Very true. On paper MBM had the best overall performance of the night: 7 triples including a 3-3, no edge calls, no URs. But Mao and Mae are on two different planets when it comes to overall skill and quality...

Ashley was great and I do think if her program was more complete she may have gotten closer to Mao. In the end Ashley completed the same amount of triples as Mao: she did 7 but URed 2 which left her with 5 clean triples. Mao holds the edge on spins and steps (all level 4s) and, IMO, Mao had the superior program. Ashley's program is nice and she skated it well but it didn't leave a big enough impression. That's something she really needs to work on. It's not at the level it will need to be at to compete with Mao, Carolina and Yu-Na...not yet.

To me, Mao missing the 3A in the FS was almost negligible because it isn't the foundation of her TES like it's been in the past. Without it she's still capable of going for 7 triples; here she went for 5. She played it safe and I guess that's why some people are a little peeved. Personally, I thought it was smart. If she went for the bigger tricks and messed up she'd have lost more points from -GOE with URs or sloppy landings. I'd much rather see Mao build confidence by executing a clean program with a little less difficulty than to see her bury herself under with URs trying to hit the big tricks, especially this early in the season. I think that program was an excellent start and it leaves her with a lot of room to grow as the season progresses.

kwanatic · Oct 22, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
I dislike both of Asada's programs. They are unimaginative choreographically and the interpretation is poor - most everything is just a setup for technical elements that only incidentally try to have something to do with the music.

Perception is a mutha, ain't it? :laugh:

I feel the complete opposite!

I think her SP is classic Mao and really highlights how much she's grown since her first version of Nocturne back in 2006. I think the first version had a little more musicality, particularly in the step sequence but this program utilizes the music well enough. No, it's not innovative or unique in terms of choreography, but I do think it's a lovely well-choreographed program that showcases Mao's unique qualities. I thought her interpretation was the best I've ever seen from her in competitive program. I see so much more feeling in her movements than in the past whereas before her movements were very graceful but I wasn't feeling the emotion behind it.

Same thing for the FS: nothing extraordinary but the music is great for her and there are some nice moments throughout the program. It's paced well and builds towards the great footwork at the end though I do thing the ChSq could use a little tweaking for effect. To me "Bells" was a program that fits your description. Other than the face slaps and "O" faces there was no choreography/interpretation going on there.

Different strokes for different folks I guess...

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 22, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
I dislike both of Asada's programs. They are unimaginative choreographically and the interpretation is poor - most everything is just a setup for technical elements that only incidentally try to have something to do with the music.

Personally, I like both of her programs but I want her to bring more fire to the LP. We've seen some great skaters rise to the moment with their Rachmaninov programs: Kwan, Ito, M&D, and Cohen come to mind. Mao has it in her.

wordsworthgirl · Oct 22, 2013

Olympia said:
I'm glad to hear this! I've always loved Mao, and it's so satisfying to see her hard work of the last few years making a difference. It says something about her character that, even though she was one of the top three skaters in the world, she was willing to remake her jumps to become better. That shows both determination and clear-eyed modesty.

Olympia, you put it beautifully here. Glad you thought my analysis/reaction was appropriate. Because of the personal qualities you mention, I like Mao as a role model for younger skaters and for my kids, actually.

miki88 · Oct 22, 2013

I don't see a true connection between Ashley and her music to be honest. I agree with Jenny Kirk in the TSL recap when she said it doesn't come quite as naturally for Ashley. I think her short music suits her more. But in the long, it's a mismatch. The dramatic parts are overblown and I don't feel she is conveying the emotions of Juliet. I can understand her trying to bring out her own personality in the program. If that were the case, it would be much better not to pick a well-known character piece like Romeo and Juliet.

Blades of Passion · Oct 22, 2013

kwanatic said:
To me "Bells" was a program that fits your description. Other than the face slaps and "O" faces there was no choreography/interpretation going on there.

Bells wasn't the best choreographically, but I feel it was better than this and the interpretation was definitely better. The sparseness and harshness of the movements reflected the desolation of the music. Her spin positions really followed the music for the most part and had much more character than what she is attempting right now (fugly/meaningless flying camels, meaningless/awkward sit spin positions). Her spiral sequence in the Bells program was STUNNING and transitioned perfectly with the music into the 3Loop. The other transitions she did in that program made more sense with the music as well (the forward spiral positions with interestingly bent free legs and very sweeping arm movements, the steps into the first 3Flip, the high swinging kick after the second 3Flip, the forward ina into the 3Toe, the spread eagle into the 2Axel...although the arm movements there should have been more refined).

I think her Bells program just had two real weaknesses - a lack of highlight choreography inbetween the Triple Axel jumping passes, and the second half of the footwork sequence (which was good technically, but too frantic and random for the music and the program).

TheCzar · Oct 22, 2013

kwanatic said:
I'm so confused. Why are people saying Mao didn't skate well here? She landed the 3A in the SP; yes it was 2-footed but it wasn't a disruptive/jarring 2-foot landing. She finished out the rest of the gorgeous program cleanly. Yes, she fell on her 3A in the FS and took out some of the difficulty but she landed all 5 triple jumps she attempted and got level 4s on everything...how is that not skating well? She didn't get < on any of her triples other than the 3A...the program was very nice and suits her well.

Considering Mao has never been a strong beginning-of-the-season skater and seeing as how she didn't land 5 triples until nationals last year, I thought this was a wonderful start to her season. Yes she was a little overscored but I do think the outcome was 100% correct. What am I missing?

I think this is the NTH time someone has rationalised this, and take it as you may- it is Olympic season. the soap operatic outrage of Asada's naysayers has yet to blow full force. People forget, they take skaters for granted and they refuse to acknowledge that not ONE skater in the top ten is perfect. They continually fail to realise that these athletes are working so hard to achieve their goals and grow within the sport.

Eislauf · Oct 22, 2013

miki88 said:
I don't see a true connection between Ashley and her music to be honest. I agree with Jenny Kirk in the TSL recap when she said it doesn't come quite as naturally for Ashley. I think her short music suits her more. But in the long, it's a mismatch. The dramatic parts are overblown and I don't feel she is conveying the emotions of Juliet. I can understand her trying to bring out her own personality in the program. If that were the case, it would be much better not to pick a well-known character piece like Romeo and Juliet.

I though Ashley was dynamite in her short: it gave her the chance to exude the power, strength and unshakeable confidence in herself. I wonder if Juliet is too soft, fragile and vulnerable a character for Ashley, and that's why her performance didn't come off as very authentic.

hikki · Oct 22, 2013

FlattFan said:
Thank you for the video. Mao really improved her skating skills under Sato. And she wasn't terrible, either.
This is an example of good skating skill can be improved.

There's hope for the rest of them getting 5s and 6s on SS.

You're very welcome, FlattFan. And ITA.

Mathman · Oct 22, 2013

I think the choreography of the middle part of Ashley's long program is unfinished. I am guessing that the strategy of her team is to get the tech down, especially the triple-triple, then add choeogrphic content as the season progresses.

One word of advice (I would offer the same advice to the real Juliette): don't stab yourself.

miki88 · Oct 22, 2013

I think Mao's flying camels are quite nice. Not awkward at all and better than most. Her layback is much improved this season as well. The only position I find a bit awkward is the catchfoot position on one of her spins.

CarneAsada · Oct 22, 2013

I wish Mao would bring back her spirals and put them in a spot that fit the music. It's like as soon as they stopped being of use to her points wise, she just ditched them. I'd like them back not just because they were the best in the business (and they were); I'd also like some indication that not every element is being done just to secure her BV. Also, lots of her moves were stunning when she first did them (like any of the billion twizzles she's done) but I question the wisdom of reusing them. Is it just me, or have both Lori and TAT really slowed down in giving her new, memorable choreography instead of recycled moves and ta-da arms? Bells and Masquerade (the LP) are always criticized but they had more originality in just 20 seconds of choreography or random transitions than anything she's had since Liebestraume. I don't mind Swan Lake or Rach 2 but to me they show a bare skeleton of the creativity present in the TAT LPs Mao did before 2011.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 22, 2013

CarneAsada said:
I wish Mao would bring back her spirals and put them in a spot that fit the music. It's like as soon as they stopped being of use to her points wise, she just ditched them.

I don't think points are the primary factor for her spiral omission, but rather lack of time. Doing 7 jumping passes, all the spins, and the footwork sequences in 4 minutes is tough, especially when you do everything at level 4.

CarneAsada · Oct 22, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
I don't think points are the primary factor for her spiral omission, but rather lack of time. Doing 7 jumping passes, all the spins, and the footwork sequences in 4 minutes is tough, especially when you do everything at level 4.

Yes, I get that attempting 8 triples and doing level 4 everything may give one pause and you might want to take out a spread eagle here or an Ina there, but again, it would be nice if she could take our minds off this worry for a few seconds. It's a pity that with every pass requiring concentration and a medium-length setup at the very least, she doesn't have the time to include something that makes you love her despite the move itself being useless otherwise.

Blades of Passion · Oct 22, 2013

Yeah, to do a full length spiral sequence anymore it really has to be done as the "choreography step sequence"...but that move is dictated by the rules as needing to come after the level step sequence, since the ISU is afraid of tech panels not being able to see the difference between the leveled footwork sequence and the choreography sequence...*sigh*.

Poodlepal · Oct 22, 2013

This competition highlighted everything I dislike about figure skating lately.

1. "Ladies" trying to force themselves into classical ballerina mode when that is obviously not their strength--check! Ashley did much better as the crazy ballerina or when skating to the Pollock soundtrack, a very peppy song. She's not Juliet-like. Compare her to Sasha Cohen, for example, who was. Not the same at all.

2. Someone falling beating someone who didn't fall because of barely visible mistakes and people complaining about it (including myself, to some extent)--check!

3. A strong skater who can do a triple axel appearing weak because her music is so soft and slow--check! ( I mean Tonya and Midori--when they did an axel, they did an axel! You wouldn't mess with them, they were tough.)

kwanatic · Oct 23, 2013

Poodlepal said:
This competition highlighted everything I dislike about figure skating lately.

1. "Ladies" trying to force themselves into classical ballerina mode when that is obviously not their strength--check! Ashley did much better as the crazy ballerina or when skating to the Pollock soundtrack, a very peppy song. She's not Juliet-like. Compare her to Sasha Cohen, for example, who was. Not the same at all.

2. Someone falling beating someone who didn't fall because of barely visible mistakes and people complaining about it (including myself, to some extent)--check!

3. A strong skater who can do a triple axel appearing weak because her music is so soft and slow--check! ( I mean Tonya and Midori--when they did an axel, they did an axel! You wouldn't mess with them, they were tough.)

Re:

1. I do think R&J may be a bit of a mismatch for Ashley. She portrayed Odette/Odile well b/c there was an edge to the character...she portrayed Delilah convincingly enough b/c there was fire and confidence in that role. I do think Juliet may be a little too soft for Ashley to portray b/c she's a powerful skater who stands out when she highlights that power. Softening her seems to have lessened her impact...

2. Falls don't really matter as much as they used to under this system, especially if you're one of the top skaters. To the casual fan Ashley should have won b/c she was "cleaner" ie. no falls...however, under the system the only way to understand the results is to do the math and compare. SP and FS combined, Mao beat Ashley's base value by 9.14 points. Coincidentally enough, Mao's margin of victory was 10.74 points. Educated fans understand that; casual viewers are probably very confused...and this is what is wrong with the sport.

3. I disagree with this simply b/c Tonya and Midori were powerhouse skaters. Mao, despite having the 3A, is not what I'd call a powerhouse skater...she's actually very delicate and graceful. Comparing her to them is night and day IMO. That Mao can do a 3A is impressive given that she doesn't have the natural power Tonya and Midori had. Obviously there is strength to her skating but it's not the main feature like it was for the other two.

hurrah · Oct 23, 2013

Re: Ashley, I got the impression that she had bulked up during the off-season, and this may be why she is now able to do 3-3.

I think her SP suits her new physique very well. Some poster suggested that she was channeling Tonya Harding (in a good way), and I got that vibe, too. I saw a new Ashley that is strong, sexy and (unlike Tonya Harding) intelligent all at the same time.

But this also means that the role of Juliet does not suit Ashley at all. And the cut of her new outfit, I thought, does not suit her either. I guess she wanted to show that she could be both strong and soft/vulnerable but I think there were other ways to show a softer side.

lcd · Oct 23, 2013

I was under the impression Arutunian's philosophy about carrying "muscle mass" was to be AGAINST that approach as far as jumping was concerned. Certainly with Adam, he was told explicitly to lose the bulky muscles and trim down

Eislauf · Oct 23, 2013

hurrah said:
I think her SP suits her new physique very well. Some poster suggested that she was channeling Tonya Harding (in a good way), and I got that vibe, too. I saw a new Ashley that is strong, sexy and (unlike Tonya Harding) intelligent all at the same time.

But this also means that the role of Juliet does not suit Ashley at all. And the cut of her new outfit, I thought, does not suit her either. I guess she wanted to show that she could be both strong and soft/vulnerable but I think there were other ways to show a softer side.

This is precisely what I said yesterday: Juliet is too fragile and vulnerable a character for Ashley's unwaveringly confident, powerful skating style and personality, espec. now that she's nailing the 3-3. Moreover, Ash and Gracie seem to have the same problem in their long programs; both seem mismatched with an emotionally delicate, passive, 'soft' character, Juliet for Ashley and Sleeping Beauty for Gracie.

2013-2014 Skate America - Ladies Championshps

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

drivingmissdaisy

wordsworthgirl

miki88

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

TheCzar

Eislauf

hikki

Mathman

miki88

CarneAsada

drivingmissdaisy

CarneAsada

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Poodlepal

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

hurrah

lcd

Match Penalty

Eislauf

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