Random Figure Skating Questions | Page 34 | Golden Skate

Random Figure Skating Questions

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I have another stupid question!

Assuming that a skater is ambidextrous, is (s)he allowed to jump in both directions, making a combination such as a 3Lz/3Lz?

You can jump any way you are capable and are free to change all you like throughout your program :points: Further back thread is some video clips of people doing just that. If I find them ill repost them later:).

However putting a lutz at the end of the combo seems pretty insane(!) :eek:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think Sonja Henie could have done a 1S+1Lz. She did her Lutz's in the opposite direction.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
As the rules stand now, jumps with the same number of revolutions from the same kind of takeoff count as the same jump regardless of which direction they rotate, and the base value is the same, so there's no automatic reward for doing something that is significantly more difficult (jumping in the nonpreferred direction).

Also as of this year juniors and seniors will get no value for single jumps.

We do occasionally see single walleys in the opposite direction, but they are nonlisted jumps so they just count as transitions.

A sequence of two jumps in opposite directions, such as 2A and 3S, would earn 80% of the added base value of the two jumps if they're linked closely enough to meet the definition of a sequence. Again, not worth doing under the current rules.

I'd like to see rules changed so that combinations with jumps in both directions would earn a significant bonus for the opposite-direction jump, and sequences would earn a moderate bonus.

Most likely the opposite-direction jumps would be doubles, but I do think asking seniors and juniors to do double jumps in the other direction is worth encouraging and rewarding.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
gkelly, I would think that if one did a 2a and without any steps in between, did a 3s in the reverse direction, it would be called a combination rather than a sequence? There would be no bonus for it vs. a normal combination though.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
gkelly, I would think that if one did a 2a and without any steps in between, did a 3s in the reverse direction, it would be called a combination rather than a sequence? There would be no bonus for it vs. a normal combination though.
Yes, it is a combo.
But it is impossible - second jump of combo uses rotation of first if in the same direction. If in other direction - this rotation will not allow triple.
Many years ago some skaters landed 2S+2S combo in different directions. It is a limit of human possibilities.

I've seen video where Yagudin made spins in different directions. It was so sloooow.

Rohene Ward used to do combinations this way. Afair, 2A into 3S.
Maybe, 2A+2S?
 

thoakun

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
I have another stupid question.
Many skaters are reported to spend at least 1 hour stretching. Can anyone give me a rough idea of the exhaustive list of their stretching exercises? I look up a lot of stretching videos for dancers but they hardly add up to 1 hour for a full body stretch, even if you hold the position for a while.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, it is a combo.
But it is impossible - second jump of combo uses rotation of first if in the same direction. If in other direction - this rotation will not allow triple.
Many years ago some skaters landed 2S+2S combo in different directions. It is a limit of human possibilities.

I've seen video where Yagudin made spins in different directions. It was so sloooow.


Maybe, 2A+2S?
http://web.archive.org/web/20080705133318/http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2005/102605.shtml

Rohene could do triples and spins in both directions, for sure. I'll see whether I can find a vid of either a combo or sequence done on both directions Rohene would do this stuff in practice and then blow it in competition, sad to say. I used to go to Liberty just to see his practices. Awesome.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=/#/watch?v=wpa9Dh030O8
Rohene doing 2a reverse direction 3s sequence in the above vidro
The same http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpa9Dh030O8
SEQ, not Combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1-havgrIk

Yes. Two solo jumps.

Two back-to back solo jmps or SEQ (nulling rotation of first jump) - possible.
Combo - hardly possible (impossible or almost impossible), very complicated and gives no advantage in score. For now no skaters will waste their time and efforts for it.

Links what I posted are for the same videos, better for desktop version.
 

StitchMonkey

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
As the rules stand now, jumps with the same number of revolutions from the same kind of takeoff count as the same
I'd like to see rules changed so that combinations with jumps in both directions would earn a significant bonus for the opposite-direction jump, and sequences would earn a moderate bonus.

Most likely the opposite-direction jumps would be doubles, but I do think asking seniors and juniors to do double jumps in the other direction is worth encouraging and rewarding.

Or at least change it so it is not held against you. If you are not going to reward a more difficult jump, don't have it count on your jump total. Even if it was just treated as choreography, it would still give skaters creative choices. It could really help to make the programs a bit more varied and interesting. It seems it could at least get credit for difficult or unexpected entry.

I wonder if there are "purists" out there that just don't like the idea. Maybe are so accustomed to one or the other they find the idea of mixing them indecent somehow.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Alex Rus, I couldn't find a vid for the combo. He successfully did it at Liberty in practice one year, but didn't in the program. He failed on the Axel and couldn't attempt the 3S as a result. By the time of the auditions, he was not attempting it AFAIR. SoI haven't yet found a video.
 

Bonnie F

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Does anyone know when to expect the 2016 world championship ticket packages to be made available for purchase?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
gkelly, I would think that if one did a 2a and without any steps in between, did a 3s in the reverse direction, it would be called a combination rather than a sequence? There would be no bonus for it vs. a normal combination though.

For a jump combination, the takeoff of the second jump needs to be the landing edge of the first jump.

Single axel-triple salchow is not unknown landing on the back inside edge of the axel takeoff foot (i.e., one-foot axel). Used to be a signature move for Jill Trenary. It is a true combination. Both jumps rotate in the same direction.

I'd love to see someone try it with a double axel into triple salchow, but it would be that much more difficult than normal 2A+3T with practically no additional base value, so there's currently no incentive to try.

To reverse direction between, say, clockwise 2A and counterclockwise 3S, the skater would need to land the axel on the left back outside edge curving CW and then change edge to back inside to change direction to CCW and takeoff for the salchow. That would invalidate it being called as a combination. I think that under the current rules the edge change would even invalidate it as a sequence. Maybe if they used a hop with a <1/8 rotation in the air to change curve it would count as a sequence.

Or at least change it so it is not held against you. If you are not going to reward a more difficult jump, don't have it count on your jump total. Even if it was just treated as choreography, it would still give skaters creative choices. It could really help to make the programs a bit more varied and interesting. It seems it could at least get credit for difficult or unexpected entry.

I wonder if there are "purists" out there that just don't like the idea. Maybe are so accustomed to one or the other they find the idea of mixing them indecent somehow.

I don't think purists dislike the idea of skaters doing jumps in both directions. But pretending that a listed jump (toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, or axel with at least single rotation) didn't exist would be a problem. After all, as Mathman mentioned Sonja Henie used to rotate her (single) lutzes in the opposite direction from her other (single) jumps, and I know I've seen at least one other skater from the same era who did the same. It's possible that some skater would actually prefer to do double lutz in the opposite direction from their other doubles (and not have a triple lutz at all). It wouldn't be fair not to give that skater credit for their double lutz.

It would also put an extra burden on the tech panel to keep track of which direction each skater rotates so they could add an extra code to a jump in the opposite direction. If the skater does it well enough, and the jump is in isolation not right next to other rotational elements, it might not register with the tech panel or judges that that was an opposite-direction jump for that skater.

Skaters who have shown off jumps in both directions have tended to put them right next to each other, one after the other, in what would be considered a jump sequence under the looser 6.0 meaning of the word.

I'd like to see IJS rules adapted to allow for and reward that option, with a looser but not too-loose definition of jump sequence than is currently in effect, and a bonus for a jump sequence that rotates both directions.

Same for spins -- some can spin in some positions at least as easily in the opposite direction, and a few rare skaters have spun in one direction and jumped in the other.

So for a skater to get credit for spinning in both directions, they need to put the two directions close to each other to make sure the judges notice. Under IJS, to get credit for the "change of direction" feature in spins, the two directions need to be part of the same spin -- not even a sequence of spins with a step in between.
 

YLFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Is the minimum age for skaters at the Olympics set by the Olympics or ISU?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To reverse direction between, say, clockwise 2A and counterclockwise 3S, the skater would need to land the axel on the left back outside edge curving CW and then change edge to back inside to change direction to CCW and takeoff for the salchow. That would invalidate it being called as a combination.

A separate but related question. This is not about jumps in the opposite direction, but what if a skater attempted a normal, say, 3Lz+2T combination, but flubbed the landing of the first jump, landing by mistake on the inside edge. For a solo jump there is no penalty, except perhaps in GOE, right?

But then she corrects to the outside edge and does the double toe. Is this invalid as a combination?

Some skaters (Michelle Kwan for one) often took her sweet time between the two jumps of a combination like this. It seems like there might be time to correct a wobbly landing edge and still get off the second jump. (With Michelle, though, it seemed like it was the opposite. She deliberately held the landing edge inviting judges to admire it before she went on with the combination. ;) )

Is the minimum age for skaters at the Olympics set by the Olympics or ISU?

The ISU.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Heiss used to do a series of single axel jumps in different directions (clockwise, counterclockwise).
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
A separate but related question. This is not about jumps in the opposite direction, but what if a skater attempted a normal, say, 3Lz+2T combination, but flubbed the landing of the first jump, landing by mistake on the inside edge. For a solo jump there is no penalty, except perhaps in GOE, right?

Wrong edge on the landing is -1 to -2 GOE reduction. Final GOE does not need to be negative. No penalty to the base value as long as the rotation was complete (and, this year, the takeoff edge was not incorrect, since you specified a lutz)

But then she corrects to the outside edge and does the double toe. Is this invalid as a combination?

It is a valid combination.
 
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