Random Figure Skating Questions | Page 36 | Golden Skate

Random Figure Skating Questions

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Call me old fashioned, but I don't really care for the bodysuits on the ladies, it's just not very attractive.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here's one pre-IJS program with spins in both directions that received top marks for choreography:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

How does it look "off" to spin both ways?

As many times as I have watched that performance, I never notice that before! All of Curry's jumps are in the counterclockwise direction, the but majority (and strongest) of his spins go the other way.

I think what makes this performance stand out is that the emotional wallop -- the reason we are left in tears by the time it is over -- is anchored in the technique. Compared to modern competitive skating, he sacrifices speed for control. It is astonishing what the human body is capable of in terms of grace of movement.
 
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IcyEdges

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
It only looks "off" because we're used to seeing skaters only jump and spin in one direction.

And they do that because they can't jump and spin with nearly the same quality in both directions.
So the elements look off if done poorly.

For a skater who does have the ability to rotate both ways, that opens up more choreographic options. Do it well enough, and there will be rewards, not penalties, in the choreography score.

Low-rotational moves such as crossovers and turns on the ice are supposed to be rewarded if done in both directions. It looks more interesting to see patterns curving in both directions. Judges will reward it in the Choreography component -- and also under Skating Skills (the "multidirectional skating" criterion).

The IJS rules don't reward elements done in opposite direction (except as a feature for spins or lifts that change direction within a single element).

And jumps or isolated spins or lifts in the "bad" direction will not earn any extra base value under IJS. In 6.0 days they may have been rewarded for added difficulty if the judges noticed.

Judges will penalize elements that are done poorly in the GOEs.

Which is why most skaters don't include rotational elements in their bad direction.

But there would be reward, not penalty, under Choreography for including them successfully.

Here's one pre-IJS program with spins in both directions that received top marks for choreography:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

How does it look "off" to spin both ways?

I was stating that it looks off and will not be rewarded by many ISU judges if you try to jump both ways and in combo. Also, in with my background, I know what will and will not be "rewarded." Spinning in both directions is fine, jumping not so much. It has nothing to do with what the untrained naked eye thinks looks "off" because it is used to seeing things in one direction. It's a choreographic insider be all end all that you don't do it for competitive programs unless you are trying to sabotage your skater, which I'd hope most choreographers aren't trying to do.
 

elee63

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Sonja Henie never wore her hair in a bun or pony tail. I wish more of the ladies wore their hair "down".

And get in the way of spotting? no thank you. We did not have Henie attempting 3axels for good reason.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
In dance, for the 2013-2014 season, a perfect free dance was 119.50.

Davis & White received this score at the 2014 US Championships. :)

I believe a perfect sd for that season would have been 81.00 (TES 41.00 PCS 40.00)

However, every year there are some 30 pages of rules changes, so a perfect score can be a different number every year. This year there is one less lift and an extra choreo element in its place, so the maximum base value and max goe will be different this year.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And get in the way of spotting? no thank you. We did not have Henie attempting 3axels for good reason.

! OK, here goes another question for this list. :) Do skaters spot? Or do they just train their balance mechanisms not to get dizzy? The modern skater who was most infamous for spotting was Kevin Van Der Perren. Dick Button used to make fun of him, saying that he would never get a quad because of that technique. (In this prediction, the sage Mr. B. was wrong.)
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Spinning in both directions is fine, jumping not so much. It has nothing to do with what the untrained naked eye thinks looks "off" because it is used to seeing things in one direction. It's a choreographic insider be all end all that you don't do it for competitive programs...

Is this true in dance (floor dance, not ice dance) choreography, too? Is there some general esthetic principle that makes turning and turning mostly in the same direction more pleasing than going one way, then another?

Or do you mean that this is a convention that has been agreed upon by the ice skating judging community? If so, this is a new development, right? After all, the basic move in figure skating is the figure eight. One of the judging criteria is whether the clockwise lobe is as good as the counterclockwise one.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I disagree. From my perspective (not untrained), jumping in both directions is a problem that might "sabotage" a skater for quality reasons, not for choreography reasons.

(Doing waltz jumps in both directions in my current program)
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
I was stating that it looks off and will not be rewarded by many ISU judges if you try to jump both ways and in combo. Also, in with my background, I know what will and will not be "rewarded." Spinning in both directions is fine, jumping not so much. It has nothing to do with what the untrained naked eye thinks looks "off" because it is used to seeing things in one direction. It's a choreographic insider be all end all that you don't do it for competitive programs unless you are trying to sabotage your skater, which I'd hope most choreographers aren't trying to do.

Don't you think that if Rohene Ward worked with a skater with his own God given talent for jumping in both directions, he could use that skater's skill and choreograph a masterpiece? Whether it would be rewarded by the judges is another story, but I have no doubt that it would be :popcorn:
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Don't you think that if Rohene Ward worked with a skater with his own God given talent for jumping in both directions, he could use that skater's skill and choreograph a masterpiece? Whether it would be rewarded by the judges is another story, but I have no doubt that it would be :popcorn:
I think I have no problem with the choreography if they can jump in both directions. But it seems there is certain difficulty since you have 12 jumps for a LP. It would cost you a huge amount of energy and concentration. If you can do it in a SP, then welcome. LP is more about endurance I think.
 

IcyEdges

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Is this true in dance (floor dance, not ice dance) choreography, too? Is there some general esthetic principle that makes turning and turning mostly in the same direction more pleasing than going one way, then another?

Or do you mean that this is a convention that has been agreed upon by the ice skating judging community? If so, this is a new development, right? After all, the basic move in figure skating is the figure eight. One of the judging criteria is whether the clockwise lobe is as good as the counterclockwise one.

I disagree. From my perspective (not untrained), jumping in both directions is a problem that might "sabotage" a skater for quality reasons, not for choreography reasons.

(Doing waltz jumps in both directions in my current program)

Don't you think that if Rohene Ward worked with a skater with his own God given talent for jumping in both directions, he could use that skater's skill and choreograph a masterpiece? Whether it would be rewarded by the judges is another story, but I have no doubt that it would be :popcorn:

http://figureskating.about.com/od/figureskatingtechnique/p/direction.htm

Apparently, I'm not alone on this, yes?! Put your popcorn away.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I don't think jumping and spinning in both directions will be much of a problem aesthetically. But's it's true that it might be lopsided. Since human never do both thing in both direction equally, even if they are ambidextrous (from my own experience).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
http://figureskating.about.com/od/figureskatingtechnique/p/direction.htm

Apparently, I'm not alone on this, yes?! Put your popcorn away.

Very interesting. Ms.Schneider Farris speaks about jumping (all jumps) in one direction and spinning (all spins)

in the other, and says:

Spinning and jumpiing in the same direction is important for choreography:

The choreography of a skating routine will look lopsided and wrong if the spins and jumps are done in different directions.

I wonder if Ms. Faris thinks that John Curry's 1976 Don Quixote looked lopsided and wrong.

IMHO for most skaters this advice of Ms. Faris is more on point.

A skater cannot jump one way and spin the other!:

If you prefer landing on your right foot, you must spin with the left foot and exit out of spins on the right leg. You have no choice; otherwise, when you get to more advanced moves, nothing will work properly.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Mostly Schneider Farris is talking from a coach's point of view (not choreography or judging).

She's saying it's bad to jump (all jumps) in one direction and spin (all spins) in the other direction.

Mainly because it makes it harder to master the technique. I.e., coach's perspective. Start out learning your single jumps and basic spins in the same direction, because it will make it easier to learn double and triple jumps if you've trained yourself to do fast rotations, especially backspins, in that direction.

Yes, she does say "The choreography of a skating routine will look lopsided and wrong if the spins and jumps are done in different directions." Again, meaning if all spins are done one way and all jumps the opposite way.

She's not talking about doing most jumps and spins in all in the same direction and an occasional exception for variety, which is what we had been discussing here.

Aside from John Curry earlier in his career, before Carlo Fassi made him relearn his spins in the same direction as his jumps, the other elite skater I'm aware of who did that was Marius Negrea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6IzauT9-WE

Obviously Negrea was not at the same level as Curry in either execution or choreography and presentation in general.

Judge for yourself whether you agree with Schneider Farris that this looks "lopsided and wrong" in principle.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
I don't think jumping and spinning in both directions will be much of a problem aesthetically. But's it's true that it might be lopsided. Since human never do both thing in both direction equally, even if they are ambidextrous (from my own experience).


Different era, but carol heiss jumped in one direction and did her spins in the opposite direction. She also did a series(3) of single axels in differing directions.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
And get in the way of spotting? no thank you. We did not have Henie attempting 3axels for good reason.

Hair had nothing to do it, nor did spotting. No lady of that time was even attempting double axels ,let alone 3ax. Ballet dancers spot, very few skaters do. I only know of one skater in modern times who would spot and that was Kevin The first lady to even do a double axel was Heiss in the 1950's. The first 3 axel done by a male was in 1978, I believe.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Different era, but carol heiss jumped in one direction and did her spins in the opposite direction. She also did a series(3) of single axels in differing directions.
Nah, I mean you have a jump sequence, one you jump to the right, one to the left. I think it's look pretty much impressive but these 2 jumps will be likely look unequally. Since people never do both thing equally with both hands. But anyways I don't think it will look wrong if term of choreography.
 
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