The Battle for Bronze - Ice Dance

LauraV · Oct 30, 2013

gmyers said:
But bronze means nothing. Look at the reaction to d/s bronze from Vancouver! It was seen as disgrace and failure and the articles were all about the end and collapse of Russian ice dance- in Russia!! Russia is not going to bother with second loser medals.

Plus d/s were world champions whose od was trash and fd involved cheating to na people and b/a weren't wc and their programs were garbage too. It's why the coaching of high profile skaters by linichuk has ended. She destroyed her business in 2010 because of both d/s and b/a.

I see your point, but D/S were in a different position from B/S (or I/K). D/S were reigning world champs and expected by their federation to follow up with an Olympic Gold. I personally don't think there was anything "disgraceful" about their results, but I can understand why there was disappointment within the Russian Fed with a bronze where they had expected gold.

On the other hand, a bronze would be a coup for either B/S or I/K, both of which are realistically no more than bronze challenger teams at the moment. And wouldn't the Russian Fed have an interest in doing all they could to help a Russian team get that bronze simply because the bronze medalist will go into the next quad as the front runner for gold if both V/M and D/W retire after this season - which is certainly possible?

gmyers · Oct 30, 2013

Jammers said:
If Russia wants to stop a North American sweep then they need to get better simple as that. I notice they never complained when Russia was dominating Ice Dancing.

I don't understand the resistance to sending b/s and I/k and whatever russian team has talent to Detroit to be coached by zeuva spiliband krylova camerlengo. Its obvious that's where the talent in coaching is.

gmyers · Oct 30, 2013

LauraV said:
I see your point, but D/S were in a different position from B/S (or I/K). D/S were reigning world champs and expected by their federation to follow up with an Olympic Gold. I personally don't think there was anything "disgraceful" about their results, but I can understand why there was disappointment within the Russian Fed with a bronze where they had expected gold.

On the other hand, a bronze would be a coup for either B/S or I/K, both of which are realistically no more than bronze challenger teams at the moment. And wouldn't the Russian Fed have an interest in doing all they could to help a Russian team get that bronze simply because the bronze medalist will go into the next quad as the front runner for gold if both V/M and D/W retire after this season - which is certainly possible?

They aren't going to work for bronze for b/s when gold for v/t is so much more likely. A team gold is also more possible than any dance medal. Gold Medals- wins- in Sochi are going to be the priority. Politics for Gold in 2018 can begin as soon as worlds 2014. I just assume no work will be done at all to get a Russian dance team a medal. especially not bronze which really gets no respect at all because silver and bronze means you lost the event. And Russia has always judged an Olympics by events won not the alternate rare medals won.

LauraV · Oct 30, 2013

gmyers said:
They aren't going to work for bronze for b/s when gold for v/t is so much more likely. A team gold is also more possible than any dance medal. Gold Medals- wins- in Sochi are going to be the priority. Politics for Gold in 2018 can begin as soon as worlds 2014. I just assume no work will be done at all to get a Russian dance team a medal. especially not bronze which really gets no respect at all because silver and bronze means you lost the event. And Russia has always judged an Olympics by events won not the alternate rare medals won.

If I were running a skating federation, I'd assume a little forethought and advance planning for the next quad never hurts and might pay off eventually, so why not engage in it? However, it seems you have some insight into the inner workings of the Russian Fed, so I will take note of your thoughts here.

I thought B/S had a fascinating FD last year. Looking at the clips above, I am not so sure about this season's FD. Maybe it'll be more impressive with additional training - I am looking forward to seeing a more finished product this weekend.

With P/B and B/S going head to head in a truly competitive match up, the CoC dance event looks to be the most exciting of the season so far.

BlackPack · Oct 30, 2013

I always support the underdog Russian teams that few people like. I support B&S. Averbukh has done good work on Ice Age along with Zhulin. But even as a fan I can't see B&S getting silver unless the North Americans retire. Averbukh is a zaney fellow. His ex-wife Irina said that he politiks (networking) and parties a lot, and that's how he got Ice Age off the ground.

You may be right that W&P walks away with the bronze. W&P's programs are simply fantastic. The execution of their SD was smooth as silk, and I think their tango is one of the best ever.

gmyers · Oct 30, 2013

LauraV said:
If I were running a skating federation, I'd assume a little forethought and advance planning for the next quad never hurts and might pay off eventually, so why not engage in it? However, it seems you have some insight into the inner workings of the Russian Fed, so I will take note of your thoughts here.

I thought B/S had a fascinating FD last year. Looking at the clips above, I am not so sure about this season's FD. Maybe it'll be more impressive with additional training - I am looking forward to seeing a more finished product this weekend.

With P/B and B/S going head to head in a truly competitive match up, the CoC dance event looks to be the most exciting of the season so far.

After what happened in Vancouver and the extreme disaster of the only medals being silver and bronze and how silver and bronze medals got presidents of other sports federations fired the skating federation is under extreme pressure to get Golds in a Sochi Russia Olympics. All "politics" whatever will go to getting golds to protect jobs. NO one wants a rerun of 2010 where people were fired because athletes won silver and bronze instead of gold. So V/T getting gold is highest and team next. Bronze for B/S is the absolute best they could do. And if V/T won silver and team bronze Lipnitskaia bronze and Plushenko bronze and B/S bronze I am sure the figure skating head would be fired. But V/T gold and team gold would probably mean the head would keep their job. It's just the way thins worked after Vancouver.

LauraV · Oct 30, 2013

gmyers said:
After what happened in Vancouver and the extreme disaster of the only medals being silver and bronze and how silver and bronze medals got presidents of other sports federations fired the skating federation is under extreme pressure to get Golds in a Sochi Russia Olympics. All "politics" whatever will go to getting golds to protect jobs. NO one wants a rerun of 2010 where people were fired because athletes won silver and bronze instead of gold. So V/T getting gold is highest and team next. Bronze for B/S is the absolute best they could do. And if V/T won silver and team bronze Lipnitskaia bronze and Plushenko bronze and B/S bronze I am sure the figure skating head would be fired. But V/T gold and team gold would probably mean the head would keep their job. It's just the way thins worked after Vancouver.

Very interesting. Thanks for your input!

bramweld · Oct 30, 2013

pangtongfan said:
Averbuhk must be into heavy recreational drugs these days.

Dying with laughter!!!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 30, 2013

If Averbukh is right and B/S somehow do beat V/M or D/W, then the Russians will have politicked moreso than one could have expected. He's clearly delusional. B/S are fighting for bronze, not threatening for silver.

I still think B/S have a way better shot at bronze than Lipnitskaia or Plushenko.

SimplyLex · Oct 30, 2013

I am honestly sick of undeserving Russian teams getting on the podium/winning golds just because they are Russian. I sure hope if B/S medal in Sochi it will be because they've skated the best out of B/S, P/B, W/P and C/L, which honestly is very unlikely considering her terrible posture and lines.

I've really had it with N/K, D/S and now B/S. None of these teams was truly memorable, nor were they masters of their game. L/A also were pushed up because they were Russian, but that one I didn't mind, because I loved their Olympic FD. The other teams are/were just so bland in comparison to others. I really wish Russia would get it together and finally deliver an OGM worthy dance team, which they haven't in years. And yes, I do think N/K were not OGM worthy, as bad as it may sound. Perhaps I/K will be in 4 years, I have some hopes for them.

And anybody ever wondered how it was that B/S so magically jumped from 7th in 2012 to 3rd in 2013? Now tell me Russia is not pushing them to get the bronze in Sochi :rolleye:

I'm not saying B/S are not capable of delivering a bronze medal worthy performance. Just saying, they might also win it if they don't.

kovarkovaelegant · Oct 30, 2013

Navka and Kostomarov deserved their titles. They weren't a legendary team but there was nobody better than them in that 2004-2006 perio, other than maybe Denkova & Stayviski who had bad programs in 2005, and made mistakes at the Olympics in 2006. It was just a weak field and they were good enough to capatilize. There is a case for Denkova & Stayviski deserving the 2004 World title, but there isn't really a case for anyone else winning the 2005 Worlds or 2006 Olympics. Nobody else was good enough, and definitely not silver medalists Belbin & Agosto who if anything were even more overmarked; and bronze medalists Grushina & Goncharov would have been even worse winners.

Teams like Bourne & Kraatz and Lobacheva & Averbuk should have stayed in longer.

Ziggy · Oct 30, 2013

Navka/Kostomarov were very far from perfect but they had a number of outstanding qualities. Really smooth basic skating, usually very good timing and expression. They had the whole package. He was a little weak technically but then that was the case with a lot of the teams in that quad as well. I mean Margaglio could barely skate, to give one example. ;P

plushyfan said:
http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skating/153951064.html

Ilya Averbukh: "Bobrova and Soloviev can fight for second place in Sochi" :yes: he said.

Good joke.

bramweld · Oct 30, 2013

Seriously now people Cup of China can't come fast enough. I hope P/B are refreshing and B/S programs look better!!

SimplyLex · Oct 30, 2013

Ziggy said:
Navka/Kostomarov were very far from perfect but they had a number of outstanding qualities. Really smooth basic skating, usually very good timing and expression. They had the whole package. He was a little weak technically but then that was the case with a lot of the teams in that quad as well. I mean Margaglio could barely skate, to give one example. ;P

Margaglio skated in another quad, he simply came back for Torino.
I still believe both D/S were far better teams than N/K and I didn't even like DenStas. G/G was a joke too, though. I agree it was a terribly weak field, but I could still name better teams than N/K.

Kostomarov wasn't just a *little* weak. Just look at him at Euros 2006.

Yup, seems like forever since SC. Let's get the CoC started already!

gmyers · Oct 30, 2013

SimplyLex said:
I am honestly sick of undeserving Russian teams getting on the podium/winning golds just because they are Russian. I sure hope if B/S medal in Sochi it will be because they've skated the best out of B/S, P/B, W/P and C/L, which honestly is very unlikely considering her terrible posture and lines.

I've really had it with N/K, D/S and now B/S. None of these teams was truly memorable, nor were they masters of their game. L/A also were pushed up because they were Russian, but that one I didn't mind, because I loved their Olympic FD. The other teams are/were just so bland in comparison to others. I really wish Russia would get it together and finally deliver an OGM worthy dance team, which they haven't in years. And yes, I do think N/K were not OGM worthy, as bad as it may sound. Perhaps I/K will be in 4 years, I have some hopes for them.

And anybody ever wondered how it was that B/S so magically jumped from 7th in 2012 to 3rd in 2013? Now tell me Russia is not pushing them to get the bronze in Sochi

I'm not saying B/S are not capable of delivering a bronze medal worthy performance. Just saying, they might also win it if they don't.

It wasn't magic and b/s didn't even place third in the free dance. C/l did and now that momentum is causing them to be totally on top of their game so far. While b/s don't even have completed programs and seem to be in a desperate panic! Probably because zhulin is really showing coaching is not his main interest at all again. W/p and p/b just went to worlds after missing huge chunks of the season because of injury. I/k had one of the worst technical collapses ever along with a derided program. B/s got lucky and they couldn't even come in third in he fd!

pangtongfan · Oct 30, 2013

SimplyLex said:
Margaglio skated in another quad, he simply came back for Torino.
I still believe both D/S were far better teams than N/K and I didn't even like DenStas. G/G was a joke too, though. I agree it was a terribly weak field, but I could still name better teams than N/K.

Kostomarov wasn't just a *little* weak. Just look at him at Euros 2006.

Yup, seems like forever since SC. Let's get the CoC started already!

Like kovarikovafan said though DenStas in no way skated well enough to have won any of the major events (Worlds or Olympics) that Navka & Kostomarov won, other than possibly the 2004 Worlds. Delobel & Schoenfelder lost any hope of winning major events in 2005 and 2006 with generally weakish ODs and sometimes weak CDs, even had they won the FD porition as they often deserved to but didnt. Belbin & Agosto were the team regularly 2nd to Navka and they were not a better team, so it is hard to come up with any kind of solid argument against Navka & Kostomarov's titles, whether you like them or not. You are basically having to argue teams who only came 4th or 5th should have been gold, but then again why were those teams (the two DSs) placed so low, not only below N&K, but below the silver and bronze winners. There obviously was alot more than Russian politiks to their placings, as they werent even on podiums, let alone close to winning. Winning major titles doesnt neccessarily mean you have to be an icon.

pangtongfan · Oct 30, 2013

gmyers said:
It wasn't magic and b/s didn't even place third in the free dance. C/l did and now that momentum is causing them to be totally on top of their game so far. While b/s don't even have completed programs and seem to be in a desperate panic! Probably because zhulin is really showing coaching is not his main interest at all again. W/p and p/b just went to worlds after missing huge chunks of the season because of injury. I/k had one of the worst technical collapses ever along with a derided program. B/s got lucky and they couldn't even come in third in he fd!

Exactly. The over the top myths that are coming out of B/S's bronze at Worlds, aka the Russian fix is in again, the big bad Russians control everything, B/S are a lock for bronze on home ice if they stand up, are ridiculous. B/S worked hard last year and improved alot under a new coach. They also got extremely lucky that teams like P/B, W/P, and even I/K were either injured or subpar all season along. Their bronze at Worlds was deserved, but it wasnt anything definitive. As you said even C/L beat them in the FD, and unlike now C/L were not yet taken seriously as medal contenders at all at point.

B/S will only win the bronze at the Games if they atleast arguably, if not even clearly deserve it, just as they only won bronze at Worlds because they deserved it (well could have easily gone to C/L too, but as I said they werent even viewed as contenders at the time). They dont have some big mythical Russian advantage people are trying to potray. Based on early sightings it is very unlikely they will win the bronze in Sochi as unlike last year W/P and C/L are both much stronger than they are right now, and have much better programs than they do.

rosacotton · Oct 31, 2013

Over at The Skating Lesson, Aaron Harris in his "Five Things to Watch for at Cup of China" post wonders if B/S may actually make it a three-way race for gold if they get scores close to V/M and D/W. That possibility hadn't crossed my mind before. Thoughts?

Macassar88 · Oct 31, 2013

rosacotton said:
Over at The Skating Lesson, Aaron Harris in his "Five Things to Watch for at Cup of China" post wonders if B/S may actually make it a three-way race for gold if they get scores close to V/M and D/W. That possibility hadn't crossed my mind before. Thoughts?

Oh god... that guy has no idea what he's talking about. His articles really sit wrong with me - especially how he is saying that Bobrova and Soloviev will never deserve the bronze medal. It's okay to state opinions, but for a site that wants to be considered a news outlet that deserves media credentials, you can't say stuff like this.

Mrs. P · Oct 31, 2013

rosacotton said:
Over at The Skating Lesson, Aaron Harris in his "Five Things to Watch for at Cup of China" post wonders if B/S may actually make it a three-way race for gold if they get scores close to V/M and D/W. That possibility hadn't crossed my mind before. Thoughts?

Having saw B/S and D/W compete side-by-side live at Skate America last year, the key thing that would put B/S closer to D/W and V/M is hitting the levels. B/S will not get the execution scores that D/W and V/M currently do. They have made great strides in their edges and speed and have much better packaging now, however, they still look slow and not as crisp when you compare them to D/W and V/M, which I think would reflect in execution scores.

However B/S have a tendency to miss levels, which is why they lost to C/L at the Worlds FD last year. (C/L had the same base value as the top two and B/S BV was actually behind several teams).

At Skate Canada last week, W/P had better levels, resulting in a higher base value (40.2) than V/M (38.2). V/M got higher GOE (13.22) than W/P (11.47). With V/M's extended lift deduction, the result was a gap of just three points.

So for me, I think getting the levels with a decent amount of execution will be key.

The Battle for Bronze - Ice Dance

LauraV

gmyers

gmyers

LauraV

BlackPack

gmyers

LauraV

bramweld

CanadianSkaterGuy

SimplyLex

kovarkovaelegant

Ziggy

bramweld

SimplyLex

gmyers

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

rosacotton

Macassar88

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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