Skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
It is late but I apologize for my comments yesterday. I still don't understand your (still unsubstantiated) comments that D/W winning gold would be controversial, but I've looked back at some of your other posts in threads here, and calling you a troll was wrong.

You are wrong too though and I do prefer V/M, at least in terms of how I conceptualize the word 'prefer'. I have been a huge fan of theirs since their early junior days and they remain one of only 4 or 5 teams or individuals who I was a fan of from the first time I saw them. I do believe that D/W have surpassed them, at least technically. I do sometimes enjoy watching D/W more now for a variety of reasons. I also think that D/W LP as it currently is is a better vehicle for OGM that V/M's as it currently is. I have said more than once I prefer V/M's short dance this year, though I have also said that V/M are not skating it up to snuff yet, which I stand by. However, confusing these things for a preference of D/W rather misses the point. I appreciate and respect both teams and I have what I think is a realistic grasp of both teams strengths and weaknesses. If I had to pick one team to go see live, or if I had to pick which team I've preferred during the past 10 years (around when I first saw both teams) or which team I consider myself more of a fangirl of, it is is V/M. If I had to pick my sentimental favorites, or which team I think has better artistry, connection, and line (which I personally continue to value HIGHLY despite COP) it's V/M. If I had to pick the team I think is currently better, under COP, or the team who I think is currently delivering better programs, I'd pick D/W. If you think that means I prefer D/W that that's what you think it means, but it's not what I think it means :)

I like the nuanced nature of your post, tulosai.

It's okay to appreciate skaters for different reasons. I don't understand what it has to be an either or. For me, I love D/W's athletic, dance with abandon style. I appreciate V/M's beautiful lines and fluidity. I think this quad has proven that both styles can thrive in Ice Dance. Why would people object to that?

Similar story, but I got the stares of a whole roomful of people. I was in the TV room of my college dormitory, and a football game was on (American football). In college you're supposed to know about this game, because it's the ultimate college game. Just about every college has a team. In addition there are the professional teams that you're supposed to follow. Not me! I was a city girl and understood only baseball. What was going on on the TV screen that day seemed strangely static to me. Everyone did a lot of standing around on the field. At one point, the announcer said, "First down." A moment later, I asked, "What's a down?"

You can't imagine the long-suffering looks everyone gave me. I thought they'd tell the administration that I didn't deserve to attend that college!

After all those years, I still don't know what a down is, so don't ask. I have never watched an entire football game, either live or on TV. I don't root for a team. I'm so glad I found figure skating! Even when there's stuff I don't know or understand, I still love watching it.

For the record:

A first down is when you advance 10 yards toward the goal line. If you don't reach 10 yards, then you have three more chances. So a 2nd and 7, means that you reached 7 yards in the first attempt and have three more yards to go. If you do not reach 10 net yards within four attempts (or the team intercepts the ball during an attempt), possession goes to the other team.

Think of downs as "plays" or "chances." At any given time you have four chances to advance a net 10 yards. When you get that 10 yards, the plays reset and you have four more chances to advance another 10 yards.

I'm watching a lot more football these days because my home team (Seattle Seahawks) is doing so well!
 

RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir for sure. So many memorable programs and moments...and the ups and downs, and the injuries, their perfectionism, their kiss and cry reactions (or non-reactions).

They had it all!
I was never into ice dance but lately, since the last Olympics, I have been watching due in part to Virtue and Moir being Canadian, as I am. However, even now when I watch others perform I think to myself, ok that was good so what is the big deal? Then I watch them skate and I remember and realize they are really, really good and the difference is plane to see even by someone like me not well versed in the nuances of the sport. They are a pleasure to watch and, to me, are the standard that all others should aspire to.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
So help me out, please! Why IS the women's PCS factor set up that way? And why is it an innappropriate way to consider her scores?
In my attempts to understand the arcane scoring system, and work out why scores are as they are... I have not seen this explained.

Either tell me where I'm going wrong... or get off your high horse!
My suggestion is for you to get off your high horse before applying flawed ideas and demanding answers, some I suspect you won't want. I will explain when I get off work but it really is a simple answer. In the meantime consider griping about another female's PCS that is highest ever, attained with technically flawed skates. But you won't.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
So help me out, please! Why IS the women's PCS factor set up that way?

The factors for program component scores are set up to maintain the balance between Element Scores and Component Scores, so that one aspect of the performance does not dominate the other. For a short program, you might expect a man (with a quad and a triple Axel) to get TES of 45. If he has a nicely balanced program, he might get 45 in PCS also.

In contrast, a lady might get TES of 36, but have the same raw scores for PCS as the man. So the ladies scores are factored by .8 to bring the TES and PCS into alignment. (.8 X 45 = 36.)

For the long program, with twice as many elements a man might score 90 in TES. But he still has a raw PCS of only 45. So this is multiplied by 2, again to bring the PCS up to a par with TES. Correspondingly, the ladies scores are multiplied by 1.8.

Here is how it might go for a man and a lady who both get straight 9's in PCSs

Man SP: TES = 45, PCS = 45 (so far, so good :) ), total 90

Lady SP: TES = 36, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 36, total 72

Man LP: TES = 90, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 90, total 120

Lady LP: TES =72, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 72, total 144.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Similar story, but I got the stares of a whole roomful of people. I was in the TV room of my college dormitory, and a football game was on (American football). In college you're supposed to know about this game, because it's the ultimate college game. Just about every college has a team. In addition there are the professional teams that you're supposed to follow. Not me! I was a city girl and understood only baseball. What was going on on the TV screen that day seemed strangely static to me. Everyone did a lot of standing around on the field. At one point, the announcer said, "First down." A moment later, I asked, "What's a down?"

You can't imagine the long-suffering looks everyone gave me. I thought they'd tell the administration that I didn't deserve to attend that college!

After all those years, I still don't know what a down is, so don't ask. I have never watched an entire football game, either live or on TV. I don't root for a team. I'm so glad I found figure skating! Even when there's stuff I don't know or understand, I still love watching it.

You have 4 tries (downs) to advance the ball ten yards. If you advance 10 (or more) yards you've made a "first down" and the process repeats itself. If you don't advance 10 yards in 4 tries the other team gets the ball.

ETA - I should've continued reading as Mrs. P already answered your question. But I do have to say to Mrs. P BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! your team is poopy! Go Niners! (rival teams lol)
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
The factors for program component scores are set up to maintain the balance between Element Scores and Component Scores, so that one aspect of the performance does not dominate the other. For a short program, you might expect a man (with a quad and a triple Axel) to get TES of 45. If he has a nicely balanced program, he might get 45 in PCS also.

In contrast, a lady might get TES of 36, but have the same raw scores for PCS as the man. So the ladies scores are factored by .8 to bring the TES and PCS into alignment. (.8 X 45 = 36.)

For the long program, with twice as many elements a man might score 90 in TES. But he still has a raw PCS of only 45. So this is multiplied by 2, again to bring the PCS up to a par with TES. Correspondingly, the ladies scores are multiplied by 1.8.

Here is how it might go for a man and a lady who both get straight 9's in PCSs

Man SP: TES = 45, PCS = 45 (so far, so good :) ), total 90

Lady SP: TES = 36, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 36, total 72

Man LP: TES = 90, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 90, total 120

Lady LP: TES =72, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 72, total 144.

Great explanation. See, plenty of helpful people on GS. :yes:

You have 4 tries (downs) to advance the ball ten yards. If you advance 10 (or more) yards you've made a "first down" and the process repeats itself. If you don't advance 10 yards in 4 tries the other team gets the ball.

ETA - I should've continued reading as Mrs. P already answered your question. But I do have to say to Mrs. P BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! your team is poopy! Go Niners! (rival teams lol)

If being "poopy" means having a 7-1 record.... :laugh:

Though they were lucky on Monday. Some days they play like Super Bowl champions and other days....well...
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Great explanation. See, plenty of helpful people on GS. :yes:



If being "poopy" means having a 7-1 record.... :laugh:

Though they were lucky on Monday. Some days they play like Super Bowl champions and other days....well...


:p they cheat by using the "12th Man" :laugh:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
PS. ;) Specifically about Yuna Kim's PCS at 2013 Worlds, she got a raw score (that is, just take the five component scores and average them) of 46 for a program that has to rank as one of the most deftly executed ladies LPs of all time.

In contrast, the men's LP winner, Denis Ten, got PCS raw score of 43.88 for a fine program executed well. So...
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Really? Search seems broken then. I type "pcs" in the search and get nothing. I type in "scoring" and get 19 random discussion threads, with only one that looks specifically relevant, but still does not explain such things.

The GoldenSkate forum can be searched also by using Google (or another search engine).
If you do not know how to limit your search results to the GS forum, see this post in the Feedback section:

The short post is from months ago, but the easy trick explained there still works, of course.
I purposely am not copying and pasting the post here -- in order to encourage you to explore other parts of the GS forum. ;) Enjoy.

You are relatively new here, but I hope the longer you are here, you find there are plenty of people who are trying to explain the scores, both TES and PCS.

... If you go to the Figure Skating Reference section of this forum (http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?319-Figure-Skating-References) you'll find a lot of interesting and useful information. ...

The factors for program component scores are set up to maintain the balance between Element Scores and Component Scores, so that one aspect of the performance does not dominate the other. For a short program, you might expect a man (with a quad and a triple Axel) to get TES of 45. If he has a nicely balanced program, he might get 45 in PCS also. ...

Agree with Mrs. P that the References forum also is a good resource. :agree:

Example:

gkelly has given some very instructive explanations of scoring. The thread at the following link has helped me:

So happens that just this week, gkelly gave a great explanation of factoring (see post #10 at the link above), including the desired balance between TES and PCS. If Mathman had not been kind enough to come to your rescue right in this thread, the References section also had the answer for you.​

Agree also that GS has an abundance of extremely knowledgeable members who are very generous about sharing what they know (and/or what they make a point of researching).
:bow: Among those with lots of patience and goodwill are: Mrs. P, Mathman, gkelly, dorispulaski, and CaroLiza_fan. Their names are just a few that came quickly to mind, and you will discover many others. :)
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
The GoldenSkate forum can be searched also by using Google (or another search engine).
If you do not know how to limit your search results to the GS forum, see this post in the Feedback section.

The short post is from months ago, but the easy trick explained there still works, of course.
I purposely am not copying and pasting the post here -- in order to encourage you to explore other parts of the GS forum. ;) Enjoy.

I love that google search trick! Google power searching skills for the win!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The GoldenSkate forum can be searched also by using Google (or another search engine)…

I am startled by how often a general search on Google (not site specific) for a figure skating topic turns up a Golden Skate page in the first two or three references.

I cringe when I think about all those innocent searchers-for-knowledge out there who must be muttering under their breaths, who is this pompous, long-winded idiot Mathman who thinks he knows something about skating? ;)
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I cringe when I think about all those innocent searchers-for-knowledge out there who must be muttering under their breaths, who is this pompous, long-winded idiot Mathman who thinks he knows something about skating? ;)

Stop reading my mind, dude! ;)
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Thank you Mrs. P, Mathman and Golden411 - all very helpful!

(Mrs. P, I was already finding your "Nate Silver-ing" score analyses very informative, and so helpful in understanding scores that may initially seem puzzling - thanks again!)

PS. American football is not exactly big in this country, but there is some (American) coverage on TV here. I will enjoy it more, now that I know what a "down" is! :-D
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I'm referring to their win against the Niners earlier this year :laugh: actually all of their home games... blah!

Haha...

Funny enough, it would have been cheaper for me to fly to St. Louis, book a hotel room and go to the Seattle away game then for me to drive to Seattle and watch the home game given the high price of tickets right now. :jaw:

So the 12th man isn't only helpful for winning games but in getting more Benjamins. :cool:

Thank you Mrs. P, Mathman and Golden411 - all very helpful!

(Mrs. P, I was already finding your "Nate Silver-ing" score analyses very informative, and so helpful in understanding scores that may initially seem puzzling - thanks again!)

PS. American football is not exactly big in this country, but there is some (American) coverage on TV here. I will enjoy it more, now that I know what a "down" is! :-D

Glad the analysis was helpful. (Speaking of which, I'm behind!)
 

TheCzar

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Of course Kim and Asada are on the rosters! Forget about medals and achievements in the sport (DUH! All of their collective achievements are ASTOUNDING)...just think of the cultural impact they have left by way of figure skating! I mean it's Britney and Christina all over again!

...okay maybe that trivialises it a bit, but it makes sense doesn't it? Kim does NOT need 2 OGMs. She has shone the light on figure skating in a country where it was never of credible relevance. Asada has successfully carried the burden of a sustained career and the flag of Japanese skating since her debut in the senior ranks in 2005. Hell, you can even say- she's carrying the burden alone all the way to Sochi. We have Suzuki too, and the rest of the field- but none of them compares to the gargantuan career that Asada has made for herself and her country (in terms of iconic status, she is second to Midori and the rest can go to sleep IMO). Likewise with Kim! Such grace and artistry, these two will leave massive voids in the field after they retire. Their fortunes- having lived their competitive careers alongside each other and ending it at the same time just adds more magic to the legend ^^

They both may not move all audiences with their performances, but my god they have moved two whole countries. THAT on its own is an achievement.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Haha...

Funny enough, it would have been cheaper for me to fly to St. Louis, book a hotel room and go to the Seattle away game then for me to drive to Seattle and watch the home game given the high price of tickets right now. :jaw:

So the 12th man isn't only helpful for winning games but in getting more Benjamins. :cool:

That sucks, but it doesn't really surprise me! I've never been to an NFL game before, my cousin goes all the time (his dad used to have seasons tickets in one of the boxes)... I see his pics on facebook and I get jealous (though he takes few pics of the game... mainly just the cheerleaders. *sigh*)
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Thanks to those of you who gave an explanation of "downs" that I can understand!

I agree about both Mao and YuNa. Various people have said that great skaters leave the sport better than it was when they came in, and TheCzar's observations support the idea that both Mao and YuNa did just that. I mean, YuNa virtually created the fan base in Korea. And Mao combines artistic delicacy with the distinction of being one of only about six ladies who have ever done a triple axel in competition.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Of course Kim and Asada are on the rosters! Forget about medals and achievements in the sport (DUH! All of their collective achievements are ASTOUNDING)...just think of the cultural impact they have left by way of figure skating! I mean it's Britney and Christina all over again!

...okay maybe that trivialises it a bit, but it makes sense doesn't it? Kim does NOT need 2 OGMs. She has shone the light on figure skating in a country where it was never of credible relevance. Asada has successfully carried the burden of a sustained career and the flag of Japanese skating since her debut in the senior ranks in 2005. Hell, you can even say- she's carrying the burden alone all the way to Sochi. We have Suzuki too, and the rest of the field- but none of them compares to the gargantuan career that Asada has made for herself and her country (in terms of iconic status, she is second to Midori and the rest can go to sleep IMO). Likewise with Kim! Such grace and artistry, these two will leave massive voids in the field after they retire. Their fortunes- having lived their competitive careers alongside each other and ending it at the same time just adds more magic to the legend ^^

They both may not move all audiences with their performances, but my god they have moved two whole countries. THAT on its own is an achievement.



I agree with you about both Mao Asada and Kim Yuna. In the future, any conversation about the Greats will include Kim Yuna no doubt. I also agree the Mao Asada is the face of figure skating in the country where figure skating is most popular.
Talking about Asada, I think some people will appreciate her more when she is gone, because with her the 3A will also leave the scene of ladies competition. In addition, if Japan does not produce a female star that can match her, you would have a case similar to Michelle Kwan, where she continues to be the standard for Ladies figure skating in the U.S
 
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