Julia Lipnitskaya's FS - Schindler's List ( The Red Coat Effect )

drivingmissdaisy said:

What does choice of books to read have to do with quality of figure skating. There are plenty of smart people whose intelligence doesn't translate to beautiful skating; Flatt comes to mind.

Click to expand...

Well put. And as if one's nationality has anything to do with being smart or 'stupid' as that poster implied.

tulosai said:

I highly doubt she has read war and peace. In interviews its been revealed she is not part of the Russian educational system (which I decline to comment on for lack of knowledge). Last year she went back to school for like a week and found the kids to be sort of... petty to her. I am pretty sure she's now educated chiefly around her skating schedule, not skating around a normal school schedule.

Also, I'm from the states and my education was fine, but I didn't read war and peace till I was 17 or 18 and I'm a VORACIOUS reader. I reject your gender and national stereotype about American girls being stupid. I was and am smart, and have the credentials to prove it in real life. I know many smart American girls and women. That said, a 15 year old, IMO could not hope to understand it, not because of the language, but because the deep emotional relationships and themes cannot resonate with most people that young whatever their background or country of origin.

Click to expand...

You are being dramatic and very much sensitive to me. Take for example, “Women with Premenstrual Syndrome are more irritable than those who are not afflicted by it”—stereotype? maybe, yes, I don’t know; general truth? yes. Listen honey, one of the obstacles to understanding what behavioral characteristics follow each group around this world is that widespread use of the term “stereotypes” to dismiss whatever observations or evidence may be cited as distinguishing features of particular group behavior *patterns*. But behavior has consequences; thereby it is an empirical fact not to be waved aside.

It is understandable that we Russians might wish to explain away our remarkable success in the arts by citing special dispensations granted from cultural determinants. But let me reassure you that it has become a common rhetorical fashion among you and your ilk to refer to cultural superiority in particular fields as mere reiteration of prevalent stereotypes. I am NOT ascribing niches, but what I AM doing is buttressing to the larger belief that observed patterns of group differences must be due to the surrounding society and that society’s, yes, stereotypes. The presupposition of an absence of distinguishing group values and traits is as arbitrary as any stereotype. You see honey, it is not an incredible coincidence that we succeed in the arts.

AllYouDoIsTalk said:

You are being dramatic and very much sensitive to me. Take for example, “Women with Premenstrual Syndrome are more irritable than those who are not afflicted by it”—stereotype? maybe, yes, I don’t know; general truth? yes. Listen honey, one of the obstacles to understanding what behavioral characteristics follow each group around this world is that widespread use of the term “stereotypes” to dismiss whatever observations or evidence may be cited as distinguishing features of particular group behavior *patterns*. But behavior has consequences; thereby it is an empirical fact not to be waved aside.

It is understandable that we Russians might wish to explain away our remarkable success in the arts by citing special dispensations granted from cultural determinants. But let me reassure you that it has become a common rhetorical fashion among you and your ilk to refer to cultural superiority in particular fields as mere reiteration of prevalent stereotypes. I am NOT ascribing niches, but what I AM doing is buttressing to the larger belief that observed patterns of group differences must be due to the surrounding society and that society’s, yes, stereotypes. The presupposition of an absence of distinguishing group values and traits is as arbitrary as any stereotype. You see honey, it is not an incredible coincidence that we succeed in the arts.

Click to expand...

This is completely non responsive to what I said and to me borderline incomprehensible (perhaps because of my great stupidity as an American woman ). I do not think I was dramatic. Sensitive? Perhaps a bit, but you did basically say all girls in America are stupid, and inferior to the Russian girls in intelligence and education. I think that's a pretty bold stereotyping on your part, yes. I don't agree with any implication that you are making now that this is a widely held steryotype- women in America are very well educated compared to most women worldwide (now granted, yes, of course, there is no comparing first world and third world countries in that way, but all the same). American women get the most advanced degrees of women in any other country (and I don't just mean in sheer numbers, but accounting for overall population etc too). Trying to make us into a stupid, one size fits all caricature who sits around reading twilight is offensive, and if I'm sensitive about it so be it. It's also untrue, and I will keep saying it's untrue, though of course if it makes you feel better to think it's true, you go on thinking it

I have no comment on Russia's success or lack thereof in the arts, which you mention out of nowhere and which was in no way a topic of this conversation or any others on this board that I can recall.

Also, kindly refrain from calling me 'honey'. I'd normally brush it off as English being not your first language, but it's pretty clear you meant it in the same insulting/demeaning/brush you aside way that native speakers might use it when trying to disparage someone else.

drivingmissdaisy said:

What does choice of books to read have to do with quality of figure skating. There are plenty of smart people whose intelligence doesn't translate to beautiful skating; Flatt comes to mind.

Click to expand...

No, I was making a correlation (albeit through a retort, from a point of contention) that Julia has become so learned in the Stanislavsky method (and to a certain extent, from Meisner) that her movements on the ice have become second-nature to her. Through this and through her assimilation of Tolstoy’s War and Peace, Julia has learned to control her attention, has learned to focus her attention through the duration of the program, whether is an invented reality or not; so she is not distracted and pulled out of it. Judging from her recent performances: whether having props to work with or not, Julia has learned to focused on the reality of the performance, instead of where she actually are—on some ice rink, with some music, in front of a bunch of people (mostly strangers), et al. Through this mode of performance, Julia has been able to rely on external stimuli such as settings and props (as I’ve mentioned, the figure skating itself may be considered a prop) to help transport her to the appropriate reality—which I hardly see in any of the American females.

^ Wait. I thought you were from Texas.

Mathman said:

^ Wait. I thought you were from Texas.

Click to expand...

Yes, I am an expatriate. But I am not from there, no. What is your point?

Mathman said:

^ Wait. I thought you were from Texas.

Click to expand...

You know who is from Texas (or rather lived there for many years)? Van Cilburn, who at 23, won the first quadrennial International Tchaikovsky Piano Competition in Moscow in 1958. He is also the namesake of a competition that attracts pianists from around the world including Russia.

So no, not Americans are cutually devoid.

AllYouDoIsTalk said:

You are being dramatic and very much sensitive to me. Take for example, “Women with Premenstrual Syndrome are more irritable than those who are not afflicted by it”—stereotype? maybe, yes, I don’t know; general truth? yes. Listen honey, one of the obstacles to understanding what behavioral characteristics follow each group around this world is that widespread use of the term “stereotypes” to dismiss whatever observations or evidence may be cited as distinguishing features of particular group behavior *patterns*. But behavior has consequences; thereby it is an empirical fact not to be waved aside.

It is understandable that we Russians might wish to explain away our remarkable success in the arts by citing special dispensations granted from cultural determinants. But let me reassure you that it has become a common rhetorical fashion among you and your ilk to refer to cultural superiority in particular fields as mere reiteration of prevalent stereotypes. I am NOT ascribing niches, but what I AM doing is buttressing to the larger belief that observed patterns of group differences must be due to the surrounding society and that society’s, yes, stereotypes. The presupposition of an absence of distinguishing group values and traits is as arbitrary as any stereotype. You see honey, it is not an incredible coincidence that we succeed in the arts.

Click to expand...

Wow. This is quite possibly the most loquacious spiel I may have ever read on here. It makes your moniker rather ironic, eh.

For pete's sake, this is an internet forum, not an SAT test. Your ostensible verbosity is rendering your posts practically incomprehensible!

Please do consider dumbing it down - you know, for those of us who aren't as cultured as you. Otherwise nobody is going to bother trying to make sense of what you have to say.

AllYouDoIsTalk said:

No, I was making a correlation (albeit through a retort, from a point of contention) that Julia has become so learned in the Stanislavsky method (and to a certain extent, from Meisner) that her movements on the ice have become second-nature to her. Through this and through her assimilation of Tolstoy’s War and Peace, Julia has learned to control her attention, has learned to focus her attention through the duration of the program, whether is an invented reality or not; so she is not distracted and pulled out of it. Judging from her recent performances: whether having props to work with or not, Julia has learned to focused on the reality of the performance, instead of where she actually are—on some ice rink, with some music, in front of a bunch of people (mostly strangers), et al. Through this mode of performance, Julia has been able to rely on external stimuli such as settings and props (as I’ve mentioned, the figure skating itself may be considered a prop) to help transport her to the appropriate reality—which I hardly see in any of the American females.

Click to expand...

Awright, I thought you were doing this as a kind of spoof, and was waiting for the knowing wink...and waiting, and and I'm still waiting. At this point, you're not leaving me with much hope.

Robeye said:

Awright, I thought you were doing this as a kind of spoof, and was waiting for the knowing wink...and waiting, and and I'm still waiting. At this point, you're not leaving me with much hope.

Click to expand...

Must love trolls.

AllYouDoIsTalk said:

No, I was making a correlation (albeit through a retort, from a point of contention) that Julia has become so learned in the Stanislavsky method (and to a certain extent, from Meisner) that her movements on the ice have become second-nature to her. Through this and through her assimilation of Tolstoy’s War and Peace, Julia has learned to control her attention, has learned to focus her attention through the duration of the program, whether is an invented reality or not; so she is not distracted and pulled out of it. Judging from her recent performances: whether having props to work with or not, Julia has learned to focused on the reality of the performance, instead of where she actually are—on some ice rink, with some music, in front of a bunch of people (mostly strangers), et al. Through this mode of performance, Julia has been able to rely on external stimuli such as settings and props (as I’ve mentioned, the figure skating itself may be considered a prop) to help transport her to the appropriate reality—which I hardly see in any of the American females.

Click to expand...

Or.... maybe she is petite and that helps her consistency.

AllYouDoIsTalk said:

Yes, I am an expatriate. But I am not from there, no. What is your point?

Click to expand...

Texans don't read War and Peace. This is well known. They are not, after all, South Carolinians. Texans only get as far as Silas Marner in the eighth grade, then they get on to their cattle branding studies in high school.

http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv263/Frez2frame/brands1.jpg

A lot of skaters skate in the zone despite being in a full arena with people etc, their moves are second nature due to training and run throughs, recent example Daisuke who skated focused in an explosive arena today, all have studied Stanislavsky?

seniorita said:

A lot of skaters skate in the zone despite being in a full arena with people etc, their moves are second nature due to training and run throughs, recent example Daisuke who skated focused in an explosive arena today, all have studied Stanislavsky?

Click to expand...

It is impossible to skate well unless you have studied Stanislavsky. Also, if you have studied Stanislavsky it guarantees you will always skate well.

Just so those don't take too much to the heart, I reworded my post on Lipnitskaya's Girl in Red. So I think I have redeemed myself from this awful infraction, especially when I see infractions all over the place. I hope my infraction is removed.
Here is my post:

Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post

The "Girl in a Red Dress" concept is not Averbukh's original though.

Kararina Witt 1995
http://youtu.be/usxGTqh4nLs
If I can recall, Katarina skated this in a catsuit showing off her ample bosoms. I think she said she skated to this music as if she was the little girl who survived and obviously 'grew up'. Umm, the little girl in red was carried off in the back of a horse drawn carriage with thirty other dead bodies. It didn't help that Katarina Witt was branded as an alleged Stasi sympathizer and friend and represented just about EVERYTHING the world distrusted in communist East Germany. As a person of Jewish heritage I cringed when she showed her boobs and skated to Schindler's List. I was like "It was a person like yourself who sold your soul for your communist country which resulted in so many deaths. No thanks, Kati." It was horrible. I'm team Julia and Averbukh on this one. I prefer the innocence, and the somewhat innocent pathos, and can much appreciate Julia's interpretation. This program brings me to tears.

Here is an interesting article about Katarina Witt and the Stasi. Apparently good friend Ingo spied on her, but Katarina somehow had the Stasi wrapped around her finger, supplying her with a penthouse, car, and a country house. So Katarina at least knew how to get what she wanted from the Stasi, and I cannot make this leap in judgment that she actually never worked for them but yet would be supplied ALL these insanely luxurious amenities. How many people can just stand up to the Stasi and demand the royal treatment? It's like being the figurative virgin in the henhouse. I'm sure there are, but likely? Neh. There is no libel. There is only 'speculation'. Only 'allegedly' suspicious. Why did she make sure her Stasi file was locked up? So not calling names, but jeesh can't we make some alleged inferences? Hmmm.....

“I always looked up to her,” says Ingo Steuer. “I was always on the rod with Katarina. And the State saw me as very close to her, someone who traveled with Kati.” Steuer, a German figure skater, is talking about Katarina Witt. But he’s not telling a story about his friendship with the four-time World and two-time Olympic champion. Rather, he’s talking about how he betrayed her…

Click to expand...

http://www.popmatters.com/review/174207-the-diplomat-olympic-gold-and-the-stasi/