Asada's 3A: underrotated or not? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Asada's 3A: underrotated or not?

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Two out of four of her attempts of the 3 ax in the gp series have been officially called ur's and her scores for two have been around 4 and 3. I really don't understand her obsession with this jump.
Do you ask the same question about man and quads? Because this season so far a lot attempts have been unsucessfull.
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Called or not, they're all underrotated. SA and NHK, short program and free skate. Different "attempts" but the rotations are all about the same, it isn't really worth your time to watch them under the microscope. It looks ugly, and it's URed.

Last time she (borderline) rotated it was at 2013 4CCs SP.
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
In the 2013 GPF thread, there are lots of posts on Asada's jumps. Thus, I scrutinized her jumps in this GPF.

1. Asada's 3A in SP

gliding, start, start2, start3, takeoff, landing, landing2

2. Asada's 1st 3A in FS

start, start2, takeoff, landing, landing2, landing3

(from a differnt angle) start, start2, takeoff, landing, landing2, landing3

3. Asada's 2nd 3A in FS

start, start2, takeoff, landing, landing2, landing3

Given the pictures above, she looked to rotate 3 revolutions in the air when she jumped 3A in this GPF.
The skid is an acceptable technique for 3As, but it doesn't mean only 3 revolutions in the air are needed for 3As.

In light of judging on Asada's 3A in SP, her 1st 3A in FS also should have been downgraded, IMO.

I think the definition of 3A tends to be changed during the ladies events.
A Perfect 3A should be like this: start, takeoff, landing (Watch the icemark.)

In addition, Asada's 3T in FS looked underrotated to me.

start, start2, toepick, takeoff, landing
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
See that? Mao's 3A in the short was rotated enough to warrant a full credit. Stupid caller.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
LOL? Asada's 3A is obviously inferior to and less rotated than Hanyu's, but while you took a screenshot of when Asada's toepick hit the ice, you waited until Hanyu's blade was solidly landed to take the SS. Hanyu's 3A is as close to ideal as anyone's, and saying Asada's 3A must be equal to the best of the men in order to get any credit is ludicrous when someone like Lysacek could get every one of his triple Axels credited with an even more cheated takeoff.

And saying that only 3 revolutions in the air are needed is quite reasonable when most of the other 5 triples require only 2.25 revolutions to get credited. As Asada had 3 solid revolutions in the air, her SP 3A absolutely deserved credit, although it would never deserve to be showered with +GOE.
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
And saying that only 3 revolutions in the air are needed is quite reasonable when most of the other 5 triples require only 2.25 revolutions to get credited. As Asada had 3 solid revolutions in the air, her SP 3A absolutely deserved credit, although it would never deserve to be showered with +GOE.

You seems to have a different rule book. An underrotated jump has “missing rotation of more than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions”. A downgraded jump has “missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more”.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
szidon said:
You seems to have a different rule book. An underrotated jump has “missing rotation of more than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions”. A downgraded jump has “missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more”.

Your quote misses the additional part "on the landing". More than 1/4 roataion on the landing missing = UR call. More than 1/2 = downgrade.
Jumps have pre-rotation too though. At least 1/4 is allowed, for a 3A, I think it's even 1/2 rotation. So 3 full rotations is definitly enough for a 3A to get ratified.

Huge big fat :unsure: at you comparing Asadas 3A to Hanyus, of all people. Yeah, absolutly nobody who doesn't have a 3A like Hanyu should get credit for this jump :biggrin:
 

bebevia

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Your quote misses the additional part "on the landing". More than 1/4 roataion on the landing missing = UR call. More than 1/2 = downgrade.
Jumps have pre-rotation too though. At least 1/4 is allowed, for a 3A, I think it's even 1/2 rotation. So 3 full rotations is definitly enough for a 3A to get ratified.

Huge big fat :unsure: at you comparing Asadas 3A to Hanyus, of all people. Yeah, absolutly nobody who doesn't have a 3A like Hanyu should get credit for this jump :biggrin:
...So, you can start pre-rotate forward, take off backward? That's called a loop.

Standards of execution may vary depending on difficulty, but the standard of form shouldn't. What we call UR in 2A should apply to 3A, otherwise 3A shouldn't be called 3A - which I'm fine with, BTW, as I endorse various forms of jumps (half-axels should be ratified as eligible jumps). Also, guys too should be marked on the UR if applicable; I'm not against that either.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
...So, you can start pre-rotate forward, take off backward? That's called a loop.

Standards of execution may vary depending on difficulty, but the standard of form shouldn't. What we call UR in 2A should apply to 3A, otherwise 3A shouldn't be called 3A - which I'm fine with, BTW, as I endorse various forms of jumps (half-axels should be ratified as eligible jumps). Also, guys too should be marked on the UR if applicable; I'm not against that either.
Actually, the skater is almost always facing forward at the takeoff of a loop, as you can see in this replay, and this one too. Axels should be less prerotated than 1/2, though.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Not from Japan, Korea, Italy, the USA-they made a rule that countries from top 5 at 2013 Worlds can't be on the tech panel at the Olympics-I think I am remembering this correctly???
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
It's interesting nobody hasn't commented on Asada's 3T.

Look at her feet when she executed the 2A+3T in this GPF.

START, START2, Toepick, takeoff, landing

Her 3T seems to be underrotated almost 180 degrees.

I don't know why the technical panel didn't notice it.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
There is a really simple answer to the original question.

Yes her 3A is under rotated when she happens to under rotate it.

When she does rotate it, then it isn't under rotated.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
It's interesting nobody hasn't commented on Asada's 3T.

Look at her feet when she executed the 2A+3T in this GPF.

START, START2, Toepick, takeoff, landing

Her 3T seems to be underrotated almost 180 degrees.

I don't know why the technical panel didn't notice it.

Her toeloop wasn't underrotated. If she left the ice facing the long side wall (to the right of the camera), that means her skate would need to land facing the far short wall on the other side of the rink from the camera. As you can see, she managed to successfully make it that far around. Jumps leave the ice 1/2 of a rotation into the jump. A triple jump actually only gets a 2.25 rotations in the air, at minimum.
 

chairmanmao

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
A better question would be is her 3A ever rotated? The answer is absolutely, she's done it many many times but you know there are those who will never admit that.
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Her toeloop wasn't underrotated. If she left the ice facing the long side wall (to the right of the camera), that means her skate would need to land facing the far short wall on the other side of the rink from the camera. As you can see, she managed to successfully make it that far around. Jumps leave the ice 1/2 of a rotation into the jump. A triple jump actually only gets a 2.25 rotations in the air, at minimum.

I think you're making a new definition of underrotated jumps.
 
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