Asada's 3A: underrotated or not? | Golden Skate

Asada's 3A: underrotated or not?

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Asada's 3A has been controversial as some of Russian coaches and journalists pointed out.

At the 2013 NHK Trophy, Asada's 3A in her SP seemed underrotated, but there was no underrotation call.

Thus, I scrutinized the slomo of her 3A by the help of the NHK's wonderful camera work.

1. start, start 2

2. takeoff

3. landing 1, landing 2, landing 3, landing 4, landing 5, landing 6

The skid is considered an acceptable technique as long as it does not make the skater pre-rotate the jump. When we look at the points Asada starts to skid, takes off and lands, her 3A in the NHK Trophy was definitely underrotated.

Really hope the definition of axel jump will be maintained.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
another propaganda thread from S Korea?

I think the JSF has made a deal with the ISU.
That level of 3A is acceptable and it will be the case until Sochi.
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Even british eurosport guys caught this from not slow motion but real time. Judges should catch too. :mad: Not only Asada's 3A was underrotated. Gold's 3Lo looked underrotated too. I think judges only using underrotation for lower ranked skaters. :mad:
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
And? I see 3 revolutions, maybe 5-10 degrees under at most. 1/4 turn skid, 1/4 turn on landing. I don't see the problem. Evan Lysacek has gotten his far-more-cheated 3A ratified even when it was underrotated. There are rules for the minimum requirements for rotations to get a jump ratified and as far as I'm concerned, Asada met them just barely. If it's unclear, you give the skater the benefit of the doubt.
 

TryMeLater

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Even british eurosport guys caught this from not slow motion but real time. Judges should catch too. :mad: Not only Asada's 3A was underrotated. Gold's 3Lo looked underrotated too. I think judges only using underrotation for lower ranked skaters. :mad:

The british Eurosport guys also said that the judges should let her have it, and not call it a UR...
For some reason you forget to say this...
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
He didn't say why he changed his mind, did he? :sarcasm:

Why on earth are people so dense? He said it was underrotated, but still enough around to get credit. You get credit if the landing is under a 1/4-turn short.
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Why on earth are people so dense? He said it was underrotated, but still enough around to get credit. You get credit if the landing is under a 1/4-turn short.

Sorry If I'm stupid I can't understand difference between underrotated but enough underrotated to get credit, underrotated but not enough underrotated to get credit. I only know underrotated. In my defence they didn't say 1/4 rotation or anything like this.

I didn't know we can't criticize Mao. I learned now. :slink:
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Sorry If I'm stupid I can't understand difference between underrotated but enough underrotated to get credit, underrotated but not enough underrotated to get credit. I only know underrotated. In my defence they didn't say 1/4 rotation or anything like this.

I didn't know we can't criticize Mao. I learned now. :slink:


If a jump is 2.75 of revolution, it is considered 'not underrotated'. It is not three revolutions so someone may say that it is a bit short but still get credit. Is there anything hard to understand on that?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I can't understand difference between underrotated but enough underrotated to get credit, underrotated but not enough underrotated to get credit.

0 to 90 degrees under-rotated = OK (skater receives full base value)
90 to 180 degrees under-rotated = < (skater receives 70% of base value, rounded to nearest tenth)
More than 180 degrees under0rotated = << (downgrade. Triple jump is scored as a double.)

In addition the judges can give negative GOE as they feel appropriate. On Asada's triple Axel in the short program the GOEs were -1, -1, -2, -2, -2, -2, -2, -2. -3. This reflected the judges' individual opinions about the severity of the under-rotation, combined with other errors on the landing (slight two-foot, etc.)

Ths scoring of this particular jump is absolutely in accordance with the IJS rules -- no controversy at all.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Sorry If I'm stupid I can't understand difference between underrotated but enough underrotated to get credit, underrotated but not enough underrotated to get credit. I only know underrotated. In my defence they didn't say 1/4 rotation or anything like this.

I didn't know we can't criticize Mao. I learned now. :slink:

Sorry about being snippy. You are free to criticize any skater you wish. But before calling something a controversy, it's good to check out the rules first.
 

Ilvskating

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Let's face this: Mao has better rotations than quite a few men's 3A that got justified, including the same event for Dai's. Just because she is a girl and she got the extra scrutiny.
 

skatel80

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I really wish people would stop with the skid=cheat nonsense, There is nothing wrong with the quarter rotation skid on maos 3a take off, it is a perfectly acceptable axel take off. Anyone who says its cheating has clearly got no understanding of jump mechanics, it is almost impossible to do a 3a with no skid, a clean edge take off often results in an axel that tips out of the circle (Adelina Sotnikovas 2a is an example of this) a slight skid on an axel take off is good.
 

bebevia

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Let's face this: Mao has better rotations than quite a few men's 3A that got justified, including the same event for Dai's. Just because she is a girl and she got the extra scrutiny.
I don't think that guys should get a pass either. Also, Mao didn't get scrutinized more than guys do, but rather the opposite: landed=perfect, as to where guys need more than just a landing to say "perfect".
I really wish people would stop with the skid=cheat nonsense, There is nothing wrong with the quarter rotation skid on maos 3a take off, it is a perfectly acceptable axel take off. Anyone who says its cheating has clearly got no understanding of jump mechanics, it is almost impossible to do a 3a with no skid, a clean edge take off often results in an axel that tips out of the circle (Adelina Sotnikovas 2a is an example of this) a slight skid on an axel take off is good.
Skids shouldn't be acceptable because jump revolutions get power from takeoff. If skids counted as part of jump revolutions, so should the twizzles. I agree skids are often inevitable for many skaters prior to takeoff. However, 3A is harder than other triples becuase it rotates 3.5 (+/-qtr) rev., not 3.0 (+/- qtr), and that extra 0.5 rev. should be made up in the air; otherwise, 3A would be nothing more than a 3.0 rev. edge jump, only distinguished by the forward takeoff. Same for all other jumps; revolutions should count in the air.

I know this topic makes Mao sound bad, which makes me feel bad. It has been an ongoing topic throughout her senior career, and I just wish her team had focused on her other jumps earlier on - which then she would've been more successful, as her potential had suggested.
 
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CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I don't think that guys should get a pass either. Also, Mao didn't get scrutinized more than guys do, but rather the opposite: landed=perfect, as to where guys need more than just a landing to say "perfect".
Have you seen any thread where Mao lands a 3A? Half the next page is usually filled with people saying "cheated" or "<<" even when it's clean.

Skids shouldn't be acceptable because jump revolutions get power from takeoff. If skids counted as part of jump revolutions, so should the twizzles. I agree skids are often inevitable for many skaters prior to takeoff. However, 3A is harder than other triples becuase it rotates 3.5 (+/-qtr) rev., not 3.0 (+/- qtr), and that extra 0.5 rev. should be made up in the air; otherwise, 3A would be nothing more than a 3.0 rev. edge jump, only distinguished by the forward takeoff. Same for all other jumps; revolutions should count in the air.

I know this topic makes Mao sound bad, which makes me feel bad. It has been an ongoing topic throughout her senior career, and I just wish her team had focused on her other jumps earlier on - which then she would've been more successful, as her potential had suggested.

No "three revolution jump" is actually 3 revolutions in the air. Every time this is brought up, someone mentions how loops and Salchows are usually done with a 1/2 turn on takeoff, and the toe jumps around that. The premise of your "revolutions should count in the air" argument is faulty.

Nor do any men actually do a triple Axel with 3.5 revolutions in the air.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Mao's 3a in the FS was officially <. Three judges gave her -2 GOE, five gave her -1 and one (guess who) gave her -3.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I really wish people would stop with the skid=cheat nonsense, There is nothing wrong with the quarter rotation skid on maos 3a take off, it is a perfectly acceptable axel take off.

She doesn't skid a 1/4 turn, she skids a 1/2 turn.

But that's okay. All jumps can pre-rotate a 1/2 turn and be considered acceptable.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Two out of four of her attempts of the 3 ax in the gp series have been officially called ur's and her scores for two have been around 4 and 3. I really don't understand her obsession with this jump.
 
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