Mao changing her FP jump layout to include two 3-axel!? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Mao changing her FP jump layout to include two 3-axel!?

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Well, when I think of ways Mao can improve her skating, more triple Axels in her program is definitely not the first (or second, or third) thing that comes to mind. As for whether it increases the risk of her program, I say that's ambiguous, since her 3F/3Lo is less likely to be ratified than a 3Axel+2Toe anyways. As it stands, her strategy now is practically identical to what she did in Vancouver, though her solo 3Axel in the SP can make a huge difference.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Well, when I think of ways Mao can improve her skating, more triple Axels in her program is definitely not the first (or second, or third) thing that comes to mind. As for whether it increases the risk of her program, I say that's ambiguous, since her 3F/3Lo is less likely to be ratified than a 3Axel+2Toe anyways. As it stands, her strategy now is practically identical to what she did in Vancouver, though her solo 3Axel in the SP can make a huge difference.

can't count?
7 triples planned vs. 6 triples planned.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Thanks for the translation hurrah, I found the interview very interesting. finally an interviewer who asked some really interesting questions.
As for her FP layout, If anyone can pull these layouts it's Mao, her jumps looked strong and solid. I personally think the current layout is awesome as it is, so I would prefer if she doesn't change it. But it's still good to think about her options. I trust that Sato and Mao will make the best decision for them.

no wonder she re-used an old costume, it really isn't optimal to be skating with a costume that's heavy and hard to move in, what was the designer thinking
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
can't count?
7 triples planned vs. 6 triples planned.

Can't read? "Practically identical" strategy doesn't mean the exact same jump layout. She could put the rest of her program at risk as she did in Vancouver by going for two triple Axels at the beginning of her free skate.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Can't read? "Practically identical" strategy doesn't mean the exact same jump layout. She could put the rest of her program at risk as she did in Vancouver by going for two triple Axels at the beginning of her free skate.

No more at risk than when she plans a triple Axel and a 3F-3Lo right off the top. And I wouldn't call it "identical." Last time, the jumps in her repertoire were 3F, 3A, 3Lo, and 3T. Now, she's contemplating doing two triple Axels just because she can.
 

Srin Odessa

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Me in 2009-2010: Mao needs a reliable triple-triple combination more than she needs two triple axels.

Me Now: Mao needs a reliable triple-triple combination more than she needs two triple axels.

The post-Vancouver changes in Ladies made a quality 3A important due to the increased BV, the changes in the SP, and the shift in GOE scaling. However, she hasn't been able to take advantage of these changes due to her difficulty landing it cleanly. There's a risk of a sequence penalty if one of the triple axels isn't done in combination. She might feel that two triple axels is the only way see can secure the gold if Yuna skates clean. You know, as a YOLO backup plan.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Can't read? "Practically identical" strategy doesn't mean the exact same jump layout. She could put the rest of her program at risk as she did in Vancouver by going for two triple Axels at the beginning of her free skate.

dont be foolish, 6 triples and 7 triples are not practically the same. If any of the upcoming younguns only do 6 tripkes, no one will talk about them.

7 triples and 6 triples lp are not practically the same. Cant comprehend?
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Whatever changes are made, I really hope they do not revert back to Asada's Vancouver LP layout, which I found startlingly lacking. I am not a fan of skaters who are capable of attempting each jump omitting two types of triples, such as the Lutz, or flutz in Mao's case, and the Salchow in place of two 3Axels.

Hopefully, it will be something like:

3Axel+2toe
3Axel
3flip+2loop+2toe (perhaps if she replaced one of the 2loops with a 2toe, she could maybe avoid the UR call)
3flutz
x2Axel+3toe
x3flip
x3loop

Unfortunately, this would omit the 3Salchow.

In order to do 8 triples with 2 3Axels, she'd have to attempt something like:

3Axel+2toe
3Axel
3flip+1loop+3Salchow (Mao has never attempted this jump pass in competition though)
3flutz
x2Axel+3toe
x3flip
x3loop

or

3Axel+2toe
3Axel
3loop+1loop+3Salchow (again, Mao has never attempted this jump pass in competition)
3flutz
x2Axel+3toe
x3flip
x3loop

or

3Axel+2toe
3Axel
3toe+1loop+3Salchow (Mao has never attempted this in competition)
3flutz
x3loop+step+2Axel+SEQ (Mao has never attempted this in competition)
x3flip
x3loop

If a woman ever attempted one of the above 8 triples layouts, it would bar none be the most difficult jump layout ever attempted by a woman in figure skating history.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Mao URd the 3a as the first jump in her NHK FS. If she does another 3a, she has to do it in combination. If she can't pull off the combo and URs it again, she'll wind up with less value than if she did a 2a, to say nothing of the disruption to the program.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Whatever changes are made, I really hope they do not revert back to Asada's Vancouver LP layout, which I found startlingly lacking. I am not a fan of skaters who are capable of attempting each jump omitting two types of triples, such as the Lutz, or flutz in Mao's case, and the Salchow in place of two 3Axels.

None of those 8-triple layouts are realistic for a skater who has never attempted a 1/2 loop-Salchow combination in front of a camera in her life, let alone in competition. An 8-triple layout like this would be easier for Mao than any of the ones you suggest:
3A-2T
3A
3F-3Lo
3fLz
2A-3T(-2Lo)
3S
3Lo or 3F

No jumping passes that she hasn't done before, except for the little issue of where to put the 2Loop. If she wanted 7 triples and a 3-jump combination she has done in the past, then she could do:
3A-2T
3A
3F-2Lo-2Lo
3fLz
2A-3T
3S
3Lo

The main disadvantage of this one is that she doesn't repeat the loop or the flip. If she had hips of iron and a smart team, she might try this:

3A-2T
3A
3F-3T
3Lo-3Lo
3fLz
3S
2A

And tack on a 2Lo to any of those combinations. Note that being capable of either triple-triple in this layout would add several points to her SP base value. Alas, her hips are not iron, so she's stopped training the triple loop-triple loop, and apparently her team is not smart so she's not attempting 3F-3T. It's amazing how many jumps Mao has accomplished, but it's depressing to think of how much more she could have accomplished if she could have put it all together in one program instead of being forced to fix her jumps due to iffy technique.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
3Loop+2Loop combo is worth slightly more than 3Loop+2Axel sequence anyway.

This would be the most viable 8-Triple program for her:

3Axel
3Flip+3Toe
3Lutz
----
3Loop+2Loop+2Loop
3Sal
3Flip+2Loop
3Loop

I wish she would try to make history by being the first woman to do 4 Triples in the SP and 8 Triples in the LP.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Asada has made a big mistake not continuing to train the 3Flip+3Toe all these years. A double-footed 3Axel isn't going to be enough to beat Yu-Na if she is on form. The rule changes since Vancouver specially benefit Asada and she hasn't taken advantage of it, just doing Triple-Double combo in the SP.

Trying to go for two 3Axels in the LP is not a good decision, IMO. Her body has ground itself down; she can barely manage to rotate the jump anymore and it is hardly ever landed cleanly. It was great that she accomplished two of them in the past, but what is the point now? She doesn't have enough control over the jump and if she fails to put one of them in combination, then she gets hit with sequence deduction. If she actually started training the 3Flip+3Toe right now, she'd likely have a higher chance of landing it at the Olympics than she does of landing two clean 3Axels (with one in combo).

i think she will win ogm no matter what..just look at her scores in the gps so far.. even w/ her flawed jumps.. i don't see yuna skating clean.. the only way yuna will win is to skate clean..
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Yuna skating clean > Asada skating clean, Yuna skating non-clean > Asada skating non-clean.. o_O

What scores are you talking about, the ones 25 points below Yuna's best?

So let's say Yuna even falls something and misses an entire 3-3 combination in her FS... That drops her from 150 to 142 or so, right? Mao's still never gotten there.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Why should Yu-Na not be expected to skate clean? She skated two clean SP's and two clean LP's last season and she has the experience of doing it at the Olympics. Nobody is more consistent than her.

I disagree that Yu-Na will only win if she skates clean. She has room for one jump mistake in her LP, unless Asada skates perfectly (something she has never done before).
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
i think she will win ogm no matter what..just look at her scores in the gps so far.. even w/ her flawed jumps.. i don't see yuna skating clean.. the only way yuna will win is to skate clean..

Assuming her injury has sufficiently healed, Yuna has a greater chance of skating clean than Mao does. Yuna can score 220+ with a clean SP and LP. Mao this season is scoring in the range of 200 to 210, which I'd say is her top range unless she can somehow pull off her ambitious jump layout.

This season is oddly playing out like last season so far. Kostner starts off rather weak. Kim is missing and won't be seen until December. Asada is winning the Grand Prix.
 

bethissoawesome

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
I think getting so overly focused on the 3A has probably been the biggest problem in Mao's entire career. If anything, she needs a 3-3 combination now more than she did in Vancouver. Even if she manages to land a clean solo 3A and a 3A+2T combination, the chances if her getting a +GOE on both are really slim. The big base value of the 3A with the -GOE wasn't as much of an issue when fewer skaters had a 3-3 combination and Yu-Na wasn't racking up such huge scores with a clean (or mostly clean) program. There was a point in time where Mao could realistically still finish 1st with a mess up on a 3A, even if other skaters all had clean programs. That just isn't the case anymore.

I always hoped that once Mao had all her 3A's ratified in competition, she would drop the focus on them... especially after so many years of playing the same game with a 3A in the SP and potentially two in the LP and never really having it pay off. I also have a hard time believing that ANY coach would continue to push this 3A obsession so much and wouldn't have tried to sway her over to getting a 3-3 competition worthy again (I've always had the suspicion that a lot of her coaching changes could have been made over that argument). There are just so many drawbacks to the 3A and 3A+2T combination in the LP for Mao (the prep time for both jumps, the disruption to the program if she falls, the potential of losing the combination jump altogether or having it downgraded to a 2A, the consistent -GOE's... to name a few), and I think a lot of the skating community is getting a bit tired of the same drama over the same jumps with Mao.

/sigh.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Whatever changes are made, I really hope they do not revert back to Asada's Vancouver LP layout, which I found startlingly lacking. I am not a fan of skaters who are capable of attempting each jump omitting two types of triples, such as the Lutz, or flutz in Mao's case, and the Salchow in place of two 3Axels.

H.

so, I suppose you are not fan of a skater that omite the 3a and 3loop, because you cant to pretend that 3a is not a triple
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
I think getting so overly focused on the 3A has probably been the biggest problem in Mao's entire career. If anything, she needs a 3-3 combination now more than she did in Vancouver. Even if she manages to land a clean solo 3A and a 3A+2T combination, the chances if her getting a +GOE on both are really slim. The big base value of the 3A with the -GOE wasn't as much of an issue when fewer skaters had a 3-3 combination and Yu-Na wasn't racking up such huge scores with a clean (or mostly clean) program. There was a point in time where Mao could realistically still finish 1st with a mess up on a 3A, even if other skaters all had clean programs. That just isn't the case anymore.

I always hoped that once Mao had all her 3A's ratified in competition, she would drop the focus on them... especially after so many years of playing the same game with a 3A in the SP and potentially two in the LP and never really having it pay off. I also have a hard time believing that ANY coach would continue to push this 3A obsession so much and wouldn't have tried to sway her over to getting a 3-3 competition worthy again (I've always had the suspicion that a lot of her coaching changes could have been made over that argument). There are just so many drawbacks to the 3A and 3A+2T combination in the LP for Mao (the prep time for both jumps, the disruption to the program if she falls, the potential of losing the combination jump altogether or having it downgraded to a 2A, the consistent -GOE's... to name a few), and I think a lot of the skating community is getting a bit tired of the same drama over the same jumps with Mao.

/sigh.

But you see the drama it started by an article where Mao said she is thinking about it. Nothing is set in stone, she is allowed to think about it. what drama by the way? An article or interview does not drama make
 

bethissoawesome

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
But you see the drama it started by an article where Mao said she is thinking about it. Nothing is set in stone, she is allowed to think about it. what drama by the way? An article or interview does not drama make

It's the fact that it's been the (more or less) same article over and over for about five years now.
 
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