I've been thinking about the flutz | Page 3 | Golden Skate

I've been thinking about the flutz

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
CanadianSkaterGuy said:
A fall on a fully rotated triple flutz with a wrong edge take off would get -3's and then a -1 deduction. So essentially about 1.3 points.

That's about 1.3 points too high. ;) You took off wrong, you landed wrong. Everything that had to do with blades on ice you did wrong. Not to mention that when you fell on your butt your blades are not in contact with the ice at all until you scrambled awkwardly to your feet. The only thing you did right was rotate in the air, which is not a skating skill. After all, you could do that on dry land in your stocking feet.

I kind of agree with PftJump above. Difficulty alone should not be worth any points. Lots of things are difficult. Putting skates on your hands and standing on your head is difficult. (I think Gary Beacon could do it, though :) ). Whistling Dixie at the same time makes it more difficult still. IMHO the IJS should reward the demonstration of figure skating skills, foremost proper command of edges.

To me, if the skill you are attempting to exhibit is launching from a back outside edge, and then you don't…
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
That's about 1.3 points too high. ;) You took off wrong, you landed wrong. Everything that had to do with blades on ice you did wrong. Not to mention that when you fell on your butt your blades are not in contact with the ice at all until you scrambled awkwardly to your feet. The only thing you did right was rotate in the air, which is not a skating skill. After all, you could do that on dry land in your stocking feet.

I kind of agree with PftJump above. Difficulty alone should not be worth any points. Lots of things are difficult. Putting skates on your hands and standing on your head is difficult. (I think Gary Beacon could do it, though :) ). Whistling Dixie at the same time makes it more difficult still. IMHO the IJS should reward the demonstration of figure skating skills, foremost proper command of edges.

To me, if the skill you are attempting to exhibit is launching from a back outside edge, and then you don't…

As far as I have learnt from posters here, the difference in take off between a lutz and a flip cannot be reduced to the final moment of the takeoff. For a lutz to be a flutz and not just another flip, the trajectory of the set up has to be like a mirror image of the alphabet S, whereas the trajectory of the flip set up is like the alphabet C.

To give zero points just because there was one moment in the process of the takeoff that went wrong, is counter to the logic of CoP marking system. If flutz gets zero points, then so should a quad with a fall, because there was one moment in the landing that went wrong, and a spin that travels wildly should get zero points because a spin, by definition, does not travel, etc. If you only give points for what is pristine, then ultimately, you would have no elements to give points to, because no element is actually executed pristinely.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
As far as I have learnt from posters here, the difference in take off between a lutz and a flip cannot be reduced to the final moment of the takeoff. For a lutz to be a flutz and not just another flip, the trajectory of the set up has to be like a mirror image of the alphabet S, whereas the trajectory of the flip set up is like the alphabet C.

To give zero points just because there was one moment in the process of the takeoff that went wrong, is counter to the logic of CoP marking system…

There were two moments. The take-off and the landing. The skater lost control of his take-off edge and he could not hold the landing (much less land with a smooth, outflowing edge).

True, he made an S on the ice before the jump attempt. :clap: ;)
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Does it matter if a flutz is more difficult to do than a loop? I don't really think so, a correctly done listed jump and incorrect jump cannot be held in the same regard. Flutzing hinders the quality of the element and the overall performance due to its ugliness.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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I wouldn't say flutzing is inherently ugly? The ugliness comes from people awkwardly lurching their bodies/legs, which is commonly associated with a flutz. I think Tara Lipinski's flutz was actually pretty cool looking...she quickly went from a DEEP outside edge to a DEEP inside edge, exploding off the ice. A very energetic display.
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Your stupid try at sarcasm doesn't change that girl still is a flutzer and that jump was a flutz.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Difficult to execute? Uncomfortable attempting? IT'S A COMPETITION.

While I agree too much difficulty just for the sake of difficulty is bad for the sport (REALLY bad in the case of ugly and/or time-consuming CoP spins/footwork), a complete set of Triple jumps should be more valued than it currently is. I don't find your comparison about Quads to be accurate at all. Asking Ladies to have all of their Triples up through Lutz is like asking Men to have all of their Triples up through Axel...which they ALL do, if they ever want to compete at a high level.

There is a reason why skaters do the spins and jumps they do, because they are performing what is best suited to them. There are plenty of men who don't execute certain triples, e.g. Plushenko and his 3F. Some men don't perform 2 quads, some men don't perform 2 axels in their FS. Everyone plays to their strengths.

What's the point of asking ladies to attempt jumps they can't execute? And then when they actually attempt to do all triples, people will then breath down their necks for flutzing/lipping? Gosh, there's no pleasing people...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Still, it is not too much to expect our world and Olympic champions to display (in the words of the IJS ;) ) "mastery of the complete skating vocabulary."
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
^ Still, it is not too much to expect our world and Olympic champions to display (in the words of the IJS ;) ) "mastery of the complete skating vocabulary."

I think it is, actually. It's like asking every female skater to be able to do a Biellmann spin.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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I think it is, actually.

Funny how every Ladies Champion from 1991 to 2008 attempted 5 different Triples. But apparently that's suddenly too much to ask for these days. Maybe global warming has made it too difficult?

There are plenty of men who don't execute certain triples, e.g. Plushenko and his 3F.

He just did 3F at his most recent competition and he did it in the 2010 season at Cup of Russia as well. He has never had any particular difficulty in landing the jump, he simply stopped doing it in 2010 because it wasn't worth more points than a 2Axel because of edge violation rules.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Funny how every Ladies Champion from 1991 to 2008 attempted 5 different Triples. But apparently that's suddenly too much to ask for these days. Maybe global warming has made it too difficult?

With edge violations, women have been less inclined to do it. Also higher difficulty and PCS handouts has made the top skaters feeling like they don't need to show mastery of all 5 triples. If in the 90s, skaters were legitimately deducted for edge/UR calls, there would be a lot of skaters who wouldn't be attempting lutzes or flips. I do love the good ole days where 7 triples and two lutzes were par for the course, and skaters were actually criticized if they were missing a particular triple.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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If in the 90s, skaters were legitimately deducted for edge/UR calls, there would be a lot of skaters who wouldn't be attempting lutzes or flips.

Only if the judges gave them nearly equal credit for a Double Axel, which is NOT how it went. That IS how it goes these days, though...
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The rules could build in rewards for executing five different triples, e.g., a moderate bonus for doing so. [My suggestion would be something like 4 point bonus for 6 different triples (men) or 5 different triples plus double axel (women) with no underrotation, downgrade, or edge calls and no GOEs less than -1.]

But you can't make skaters execute jumps they can't actually do.

Nor can you write rules that guarantee that the champion must always have at least as many different triples as the other challengers. Unless you make apply a bonus (or penalty) so huge that variety of successful triples becomes the determining factor and weak skaters who do nothing except one of each triple will have an advantage over skaters who do everything else except one kind of triple.

And any rules that you write to micromanage which strengths will be rewarded on the podium (what you "ask" of the ladies champions) will also affect every other skater in the competition who isn't in podium contention this week or this year or ever.

Unless the rule is something like allowing everyone to earn points with whatever strengths will give them the most points, and then apply an additional rule, at championships and maybe Grand Prix only, to take the top 5-6 skaters at the end of the event, or everyone within X points of the leader, and apply a bonus/penalty rule to sort among those skaters only, raising the skaters with the appropriate jump variety and knocking down those without it.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
The rules could build in rewards for executing five different triples, e.g., a moderate bonus for doing so. [My suggestion would be something like 4 point bonus for 6 different triples (men) or 5 different triples plus double axel (women) with no underrotation, downgrade, or edge calls and no GOEs less than -1.]

Someone at FSU did an analysis of the ladies in the 2013 Worlds FS, and only one skater fulfilled the requirements you suggest--Elizaveta Tuktamysheva. She wasn't the only skater to attempt the 5 triples, of course, just the only one to land all 5 cleanly without popping, no UR/DG, edge call or negative GOE more than -1. A 4-point bonus would have moved her from 10th place overall to 8th place. No one else would've gotten such a bonus.

Zijun Li was the next closest skater to do so as she cleanly landed and rotated all 7 triples in her FS, but she got an edge call on her lutz, resulting in negative GOE of -.30.

I think such a bonus rule would be great. I don't think it would change things drastically, as there were already a number of skaters at Worlds who were attempting the five basic triples. Of the skaters who didn't attempt the five basic triples, maybe a bonus would encourage some of them to add the missing triple, but for others, what they attempted is probably what they feel they have the best chance of succeeding at. No use in adding a jump they have a high rate of failure on in practice in the unlikely hopes of getting a bonus.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Well now we're going to the crazy side of the spectrum. A 4 point bonus? That's way too much.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Heh. What I really want to suggest is
2 points for six different takeoffs as doubles or higher
4 points for six different takeoffs as triples or higher (double axel counts for women)
4 points for eight different takeoffs as doubles or higher -- including double walley and double inside axel in the scale of values.

Obviously, doing more of them as triples (and not getting them downgraded) would earn higher base marks.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It seems like the full range of triples should be rewarded in program components. This is something that applies to the program as a whole, not to any individual element. It should count toward a balanced program, choreography, skating skills -- stuff like that. The judges could just say, a program with a full variety of jumps is better than a program that lacks this desirable and pleasing feature.
 
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