Reworking Ashley Wagner's Olympic Season LP into a great program, podium material

Blades of Passion said:

There many different ways to challenge oneself. The SP is better for challenging a 3-3. The challenge in the LP should be focused on the choreography, the transitions, backloaded jumps, and spin base values. That's what is most intelligent for her.

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She needs to focus on what she is physically capable of, too. You wouldn't ask Mao to backload a 3A, would you? Asking Wagner to execute 5 jumping passes in a row is suicidal, not to mention bad choreography having 5/7 jumping passes back to back.

Not to mention, it makes no sense for you (or for her layout right now, with a 2A+3T to begin with that covers the axel requirement) to have a 3L-2Ax when a 3L-2Lx is easier to execute and gets more points. Heck, even a 3L-2Tx gets 7.04 points to 7.39 (3L-2Lx gets her 7.59.).. and is far easier.

I don't see Ashley ever hitting 140 points even with a 3-3. She's about reached her peaked and needs lots of help to ever get on a Worlds podium. If the only way she can skate clean is not doing the 3-3 she won't be competitive not just internationally but at home and i can't see her ever getting a reliable 3-3.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

her BV would have been 59.54.

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No, the base value is 61.14. We are talking about a program with the correct spins and footwork and choreography. Don't confuse what's going on here.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

And yet again, Wagner made a mistake on her 3-jump combo because she was running out of steam. And you want to add another jumping pass in there?

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Of course she messed up her 3-jump combo, it came at the end of the program. I wisely put it at the start of the program. Another jumping pass isn't being "added in". A jumping pass from the first half of the program is being moved to the second half of the program, in place of a spin or footwork sequence. In Ashley's Samson and Delilah program, she does 6 jumping passes, 2 spins, and a footwork sequence before she goes into the last jumping pass of her program. That's the same as what I have. The difference is that my program is worth more points, both in base value and potential/probable GOE.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

She needs to focus on what she is physically capable of, too. You wouldn't ask Mao to backload a 3A, would you? Asking Wagner to execute 5 jumping passes in a row is suicidal.

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Why are you talking about backloading a 3A? Stop talking about completely unrelated things.

5 jumping passes "in a row" in the second half is entirely possible. That's what pretty much EVERY Men's program does. Their programs last longer too. Hello? This season Lipnitskaia has done 5 Triples in the second half of her program, one of them on the end of Double Axel. Your argument that a woman can't do it is baseless.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Not to mention, it makes no sense for to have a 3Lo-2A when a 3L+2Lo is easier to execute and gets more points.

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Can you stop repeating your same wrong points over and over and ruining my thread? 3Lo+2Lo is not easier for her and it does not get more points. 3Lo-2A has a more impressive look and it pulls in higher +GOE. It also gives her two double axels in the program, so that there is no penalty if one of them doesn't happen for whatever reason. I've said these things many times throughout the thread and you still don't get it and it is wasting everyone's time.

Not arguing a woman can't do it but Ashley isn't a man or Lipnitskaia who can reel off jumps and tack on triples whenever she feels like. You completely overestimate her abilities. She is barely capable of getting 4 jumping passes in a row done (often she will UR one, due to fatigue). 5 jumping passes in a row is suicide - if she messes one up then she has little time or breaks to recover mentally.

And the base value I mentioned was for the program she did at Worlds where all her other elements received 14.5 BV, for parity.

Also LOL at "Ashley does 6 jumping passes before going into her 7th and final jumping pass". She must be the only female skater to do that!

I suppose theoretically she could hit 140 with 7 triples but I don't see her ever getting enough +GOE on her jumps to do so, particularly when it is going to be offset by -GOE on the flutz.

Yeah and certainly not by incorporating two sequences which devalue to 80%.

If the sequence percentage were negated, I could picture her getting 140 if she were absolutely perfect.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Not arguing a woman can't do it but Ashley isn't a man or Lipnitskaia who can reel off jumps and tack on triples whenever she feels like. You completely overestimate her abilities. She is barely capable of getting 4 jumping passes in a row done (often she will UR one, due to fatigue). 5 jumping passes in a row is suicide - if she messes one up then she has little time or breaks to recover mentally.

And the base value I mentioned was for the program she did at Worlds where all her other elements received 14.5 BV, for parity.

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What about 2011 Miki Ando? Ashley could follow her lead and take a coffee break with posing, slow transitions/footwork, and spins, then reel off the jumps.

CarneAsada said:

What about 2011 Miki Ando? Ashley could follow her lead and take a coffee break with posing, slow transitions/footwork, and spins, then reel off the jumps.

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Hah, I assume you're joking. bUt Yeah, but then people would complain that she isn't giving a program and is simply turning into a jumping machine. That's not Ashley's style.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

You completely overestimate her abilities.

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Nope, you just underestimate her abilities.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

She is barely capable of getting 4 jumping passes in a row done. 5 jumping passes in a row is suicide - if she messes one up then she has little time or breaks to recover mentally.

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She's not barely capable of doing 4, she consistently does it. This season has just seen a problem with the final jump because she's trying to do the 3-jump combo SO late in the program and she's getting more worn out from the 3-3 attempt earlier.

Anyone messing up a jump is going to potentially throw them off for the rest of the program. That's not an argument. Again, in the second half of Ashley's Samson and Delilah program, in which she executed all of the second half jumps cleanly in 4 events during the 2012-2013 season, she does 3 jumping passes, then a footwork sequence, and then another jumping pass. Changing out the footwork sequence for a jump doesn't make her any more tired. I'm really not sure what you are having trouble understanding.

CarneAsada said:

What about 2011 Miki Ando?

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Eww! That program was the wrong way to do it. Very lacking ice coverage, virtually no choreography inbetween the jumps, and she spends almost a full rink length staring down a Triple Toe, LOL.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Hah, I assume you're joking. bUt Yeah, but then people would complain that she isn't giving a program and is simply turning into a jumping machine. That's not Ashley's style.

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Only half joking. If she finds a 2 jump/5 jump program with real choreography too tiring, then that can be the last resort.

Blades of Passion said:

Eww! That program was the wrong way to do it. Very lacking ice coverage, virtually no choreography in between the jumps, and she spends almost a full rink length staring down a Triple Toe, LOL.

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I rewatched her 2011 4CC performance just to remind myself of how much I wouldn't like to see a program like that again. Though are you sure that wasn't the original inspiration for your proposed rework? She did maximize her points despite not having a flip or a 3-3.