Ice Dance SD - 2013 Rostelecom Cup

ilmiom said:

Of course B/S were a bit overscored, but it's not like W/P had the skate of their life either. And why would you think W/P should get higher PCS? B/S are world bronze medalists, and they beat W/P 3 times out of 3 last season. They are top skaters and contenders for an Olympic medal, and the fact that some of you don't like them won't stop them from being great and getting high scores.

Everyone is so pissed that B/S got a home advantage, while this always happens in Canada, in Japan, and no one seems to mind. Let alone the US, especially the ladies event in Salt Lake City. Seriously, that was the most blatant politicking I've ever seen. And then of course there's Lysacek.

I appreciate the possibility to read comments by people from other countries, but this level of hate on all things Russian makes me sick. Why would you always assume that Russians don't deserve their scores and placements? Maybe they are just better than your favourites.

God, I don't even like B/S, but everybody here is so unreasonable...

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Okay, I have extensive training in ice dance and competed in it and freestyle at a high level. I also studied Russian language, lit and culture in University and have a huge respect for everything Russian. (I even work with Russian skaters).
That being said, here is my 2 cents on this whole business. I don't care how many medals B/S have this judging at COR is complete BS! We/Po were way above them and do NOT get judged much better in North America as you claim the North American skaters get (exceptions here are D/W and V/M).

Secondly, I find it hilarious that every time the Russian skaters who did a crap job get called out on overblown judging you want to bring the stupid Plushy/Lysacek discussion up. I find that the Russians are the ONLY ones that do this. So freaking sorry that Lysacek won fair and square in Vancouver. Deal with it. Go cry like Plushy did, you might get a "platinum" medal out of it.
:sarcasm:

sky_fly20 said:

the inman mail and winning with a mere 3A

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I'll say only this, since this is a Dance thread...

There's more to a program than just jumps... You want a sport of ice jumping, then make it and score it accordingly. Well done 3A's + artistry connecting things is better than watching splats of quads where it's just trying for points.

Back on topic, overscoring is going to occur, today's was blatently obvious. This is why I believe there should be a new scoring system. Have captions, assign judges to the captions, and let it be totaled up.

The current system where each judge has to watch for everything, is asking too much. Also, let's get some separation between these judges, I don't care if it's clear plexiglass or what, but the ability for judges to be able to speak with each other provides too easy of a chance for biased results.

I am more amazed by the reaction of people here than the actual score athletes received. Some brought up a cold war even. Looking at what is happening in the world right now I would bet my money on US that they will be the reason of something bad happening in the world rather than Russians. And Americans are the ones who are constantly picking sides so to speak

Some Israelis might be on Russian side (many Israelis were Russian citizens and communists)
Some Poles are on Russian side.
So you never know.

sky_fly20 said:

W/P scores though would have been close not sure if they would beat B/S but close

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I'm not saying that the scores should be what they are. And I agree that B/S shouldn't be ahead by 7 points, if at all. What disturbs me is that people react as though B/S can't beat W/P under any circumstances, as though W/P is a far superior team, and B/S being first is a disgrace to figure skating.

chuckm said:

But if the GPF scores don't validate the crap CoR generates, there might be a problem...

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They will most certainly not validate them. No way Julia scores 72 for that SP, Maxim scores 92 for that SP, B/S score 68 for that SD. Same at Euros.

Although when we get back to Sochi, it'll quite possibly be back to the CoR antics again.

katia said:

Some Israelis might be on Russian side (many Israelis were Russian citizens and communists)
Some Poles are on Russian side.
So you never know.

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I've lived in the Middle East and would say that large majority of Israelis are pro Russia! There are also many Russian Jews living in Israel.

ilmiom said:

I'm not saying that the scores should be what they are. And I agree that B/S shouldn't be ahead by 7 points, if at all. What disturbs me is that people react as though B/S can't beat W/P under any circumstances, as though W/P is a far superior team, and B/S being first is a disgrace to figure skating.

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W/P is a superior team at this point, but they will never be credited ahead of B/S on Russian ice. I fully expected B/S to win this event, but I did not expect such a gross margin after the SD and such obviously foul judging.

ilmiom said:

I'm not saying that the scores should be what they are. And I agree that B/S shouldn't be ahead by 7 points, if at all. What disturbs me is that people react as though B/S can't beat W/P under any circumstances, as though W/P is a far superior team, and B/S being first is a disgrace to figure skating.

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I agree absolutely. They are not favorite pair to watch for sure but they are hard working team with their own style which is not liked by "average knowledge" public.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

They will most certainly not validate them. No way Julia scores 72 for that SP, Maxim scores 92 for that SP, B/S score 68 for that SD. Same at Euros.

Although when we get back to Sochi, it'll quite possibly be back to the CoR antics again.

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your saying a clean Julia wont score above 70+ in GPF ?
is that a joke ?

katia said:

Some Israelis might be on Russian side (many Israelis were Russian citizens and communists)
Some Poles are on Russian side.
So you never know.

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I didn't know that. Thank you for explanation.
Maybe Galit Chait's girlfriend calls W/P's finnstep NO NO NO.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

W/P is a superior team at this point, but they will never be credited ahead of B/S on Russian ice. I fully expected B/S to win this event, but I did not expect such a gross margin after the SD and such obviously foul judging.

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I can argue I/K , C/L and P/B are superior to W/P
especially C/L and I/K

Trying to move us away from the emotional outbursts and into rational discussions, I am copying and pasting these for discussion purposes :

Rotational Lift : A Dance Lift in which the lifting partner rotates in one (clockwise or anticlockwise) direction whiletravelling across the ice

Applicable to Rotational Lifts:
1. A Rotational Lift shall be identified as such if the lifting partner moves through more than one rotation. Up to one rotationat the beginning or end of any Dance Lift which is not a Rotational Lift or a Reverse Rotational Lift shall be considered part of the entry or exit.
2. In a Rotational Lift, if the lifting partner stops traveling, the rotations and Difficult Pose/Position or Change of Pose from that point on shall not be considered for Level.

Difficult Pose for Lifted Partner (examples)

: a) Full split: when the legs of the lifted partner are extended in one line with the angle between thighs about 180 degrees;
b) full “Biellmann”: body upright with the heel of the boot pulled by the hand behind and above the level of the head;
c) full doughnut/ring: upper body arched back, with one or both feet almost touching the head in afull circle (maximum of half a blade length between head and blade)
d) upside down combined with difficult hold;
e) from a vertical position lady is cantilevered out: lady’s torso is extended away from the man and the only one additional point of support are the hands;
f) balancing in a horizontal position with only one additional point of support;
g) leaning out (forwards or backwards) with the only one additional point of support being the legs;
h) full layback with arched pose with no support from the lifting partner above the thigh;
i) extended out with the majority of body weight in a horizontal line with the only one additional point of support being shoulders and/or upper back.
Notes:a chosen example of Difficult Pose shall be considered for Level only the first time it occurs, whether it be in a Short Lift or in a part of Long Lift;

examples b) (full “Biellmann) and c) (full doughnut/ring) shall be considered as the same example of Difficult Pose.

Change of pose for lifted partner : A Change of Pose shall be considered for Level if it fulfills the following characteristics: lifting partner changes hold and lifted partner changes hold and body pose so that it is a significant change (i.e. a photographer would produce two different photos). A mere change of position of arm(s) and/or legs, changing to the reverse side (mirror) or changing the height of the body is not enough to constitute a Change of Pose;

the change of body pose and changes of hold occur simultaneously; each pose, preceding and following the change is clearly defined and the first pose is attained and clearly shown prior to the change to the second pose; in Rotational Lifts, the movement through the Change of Pose occurs during rotations of both lifting and lifted partners.
Note: Changes of Pose shall be considered for Level only the first two times they occur, whether
they are in Short Lifts or in parts of Long Lift.

Difficult position for Lifting partner :

a) one foot;
b) Shoot the Duck (thigh at least parallel to the ice) with any position of free leg;
c) Spread Eagle – inside: same edges (one forward one backward) on the same curve;
d) Spread Eagle – outside: same edges (one forward one backward) on the same curve;
e) Spread Eagle – on a straight line (for Straight Line Lift only): same edges (one forward one
backward) on the same line;
f) Ina Bauer: same or different edge (one forward one backward) on parallel tracing;
g) Crouch with two knees bent (thighs at least parallel to the ice) on two feet;
h) Crouch with one knee bent (thigh at least parallel to the ice) on two feet with one leg extended
to side;
i) Lunge (thigh at least parallel to the ice) with any position of free leg;
j) One Hand/Arm Lift: with no contact other than the lifting partner’s hand/arm and the lifted
partner.
Notes:

examples g) h) and i) (Crouch or Lunge) shall not be considered for Level in a Stationary
Lift which is not rotating; a chosen example of Difficult Position shall be considered for Level only the first time it occurs, whether it be in a Short Lift or in a part of Long Lift (exception: Reverse Rotational
Lift Levels 3 and 4 Option 2, where the One Hand/Arm Lift is considered for Level in both
directions); if the three different examples of Spread Eagle (c), d) and e)) are performed, only the two first performed different examples shall be considered for Level;

if an Ina Bauer (example f) skated on same edges) and an example of Spread Eagle (c), d)
or e)) are performed on the same edges, only the first performed of the two Difficult
Positions shall be considered for Level.

Creative / Difficult Entry (examples) :

a) unexpected entry without any evident preparation;
b) entry from a Difficult Position for the lifting partner (to be considered only for Stationary, Straight Line or Curve Lift): the Difficult Position must be reached before the lifted partner leaves the ice, and, subsequently, must be:

continuously sustained as the Difficult Position considered and given credit for Level, or

changed without any intermediate position into the Difficult Position considered and given
credit for Level;
c) entry from a difficult transition by the lifting partner: series of at least two difficult Turns (e.g.
Bracket, Choctaw, Counter, Outside Mohawk, but not progressives) before the Dance Lift;
d) significant transitional movement performed by the lifted partner to reach and establish the
desired pose (Note: this is not the same as a Change of Pose, because the movement is
transitional and not established).
Notes:

a chosen Group of examples of Creative/Difficult Entry a), c) or d) shall be considered for
Level only in the Dance Lift where it is first performed;

a chosen example of Creative/Difficult Entry from Group b) shall be considered for Level
only in the Dance Lift where it is first performed;

if the three different examples of Spread Eagle (c), d) and e) of paragraph Difficult Position
for lifting partner) are performed as Creative/Difficult Entry, only the two first performed
different examples shall be considered for Level;

if an Ina Bauer (example f) of paragraph Difficult Position for lifting partner skated on same
edges) and an example of Spread Eagle (c), d) or e) of paragraph Difficult Position for lifting
partner) are performed as Creative/Difficult Entry on the same edges

One hand/arm rotational lift (extra feature) :

Only One Hand/Arm Lift is used to lift, hold and set down the lifted partner, and

the lifting partner is on one foot for at least one rotation;

and/or the lifting partner significantly changes the level of his skating legs (knees) with a
continuous motion;

and/or the lifting partner’s holding arm is fully extended in front with a significant distance
between partners.
Notes:

if performed as the first part of a Combination Lift, the setting down in One Hand/Arm Lift
requirement does not apply;

if performed as the second part of a Combination Lift, the lifting in One Hand/Arm Lift
requirement does not apply.

Characteristics of Levels Rotational Lift

Level 1 :

Lifted partner is held
off the ice through at
least 3 rotations
AND
Lifting partner moves
through at least 3
rotations

Level 2:

OPTION 1
Lifted partner sustains a Difficult
Pose through at least 3 rotations or
moves through a Change of Pose
AND
Lifting partner moves through at
least 4 rotations
OPTION 2
Lifting partner in One Hand/Arm
Lift through at least 2 rotations

Level 3:

OPTION 1
Lifted partner sustains a Difficult
Pose through at least 4 rotations or
moves through a Change of Pose
AND
Lifting partner moves through at
least 5 rotations
OPTION 2
Lifting partner in One Hand/Arm
Lift through at least 3 rotations

Level 4:

OPTION 1.a)
Requirements for Level 3 Option 1
AND
Creative/Difficult Entry excluding
Group of examples b) (entry from a
Difficult Position for the lifting
partner)
OPTION 1.b)
Lifted partner sustains a Difficult
Pose through at least 5 rotations or
moves through a Change of Pose
AND
Lifting partner moves through at
least 6 rotations
OPTION 2
Requirements for Level 3 Option 2
AND
One Hand/Arm Rotational Lift
Extra Feature

Source : Communication 1677 & 1738


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It is important to note the list of examples given for each feature is not exhaustive. Instead, the specialist needs to use his/her judgement to apply the principles and the spirit of the rules to include equivalent features not mentioned in the examples. This is the grey area which can cause some disputes.

Macassar88 said:

Doesn't matter. When Chan goes onto the ice with food poisoning and falls, the judges will give him straight 10's in PCS and keep him up there

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Oh brother!!! Fortunately most of the world do not read these posts. Skating fans must not have much credibility if you read our posts LOL.

ilmiom said:

. What disturbs me is that people react as though B/S can't beat W/P under any circumstances, as though W/P is a far superior team, and B/S being first is a disgrace to figure skating.

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Nobody is saying that B/S can't beat W/P under any circumstances. What people are saying is that W/P should beat B/S at the moment, and at the moment (and in my view-- this year) W/P dance is better then B/S.

sky_fly20 said:

I can argue I/K , C/L and P/B are superior to W/P
especially C/L and I/K

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I have an idea... let's take all the dance teams. Go to a completely neutral site. Judges from countries unknown (aka, countries where the teams are NOT from) so as not to know about ANY of the programs previously. Put on a show. Judges treated like a jury, no one can see or talk to them, they stay in isolation. The judges will be placed with a monitor and headphones in a (basically) plexiglass phone booth, at a distance apart so that no 2 judges can contact each other. Judges will not be allowed any communication devices other than their scoring apparatus.

I think you'd see this year's dance results very shaken up. For once, you'd actually see the best program win. Until this occurs, which it never will, politics will win out.

ilmiom said:

Of course B/S were a bit overscored, but it's not like W/P had the skate of their life either. And why would you think W/P should get higher PCS? B/S are world bronze medalists, and they beat W/P 3 times out of 3 last season. They are top skaters and contenders for an Olympic medal, and the fact that some of you don't like them won't stop them from being great and getting high scores.

Everyone is so pissed that B/S got a home advantage, while this always happens in Canada, in Japan, and no one seems to mind. Let alone the US, especially the ladies event in Salt Lake City. Seriously, that was the most blatant politicking I've ever seen. And then of course there's Lysacek.

I appreciate the possibility to read comments by people from other countries, but this level of hate on all things Russian makes me sick. Why would you always assume that Russians don't deserve their scores and placements? Maybe they are just better than your favourites.

God, I don't even like B/S, but everybody here is so unreasonable...

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Have to somewhat agree here. Weaver and Poje are no longer naive kids they had to know coming into Russia that if the didn't skate extremely well there was no way they were going to get the necessary PCS marks. But who knows maybe they are aware of this and don't really care, simply marking time and increasing form for the GPF. However, what I don't understand is that the rules dictate that the Finnstep should be light, airy and crisp. B/S were powerful and fast but not clean, airy or light so how do you account for their PCS marks? I understand that their is a home team advantage to be had but you don't judge a competition to render it almost pointless before the second segment is judged? Am I missing something here? When did B/S become elevated to the V/M and D/W category? Is this all because they won a bronze medal last year?

wallylutz said:

Trying to move us away from the emotional outbursts and into rational discussions,

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It is important to note the list of examples given for each feature is not exhaustive. Instead, the specialist needs to use his/her judgement to apply the principles and the spirit of the rules to include equivalent features not mentioned in the examples. This is the grey area which can cause some disputes.

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And that is understatement.

Interesting article about ice dance judging in the 2001 GP final. Katalin Alpern was in the judging panel:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/ice-dance-judging-triggers-uproar/article765012/?page=all

I'm not an expert , but as far as I know, Katalin Alpern was Hungarian originally and may still live in Hungary..in all the years I've been watching ( many , many ), she's always been very pro-Russian .She is no stranger to controversy. In the 6.0 days you could always defend her by saying , well , she just appreciates the Russian style more ... but that's not supposed to hold a lot of water , now. ( ETA: not in TES, anyway )

As for Shekovtseva... IIRC when Piseev was losing power in Russia , there was a big push on for her to gain power in the ISU (successful) .. so lose on the roundabout , gain on the swings , IMO..