Plushenko or Kovtun?

Yes but it is not any abusement of rules to withdraw a skater due to injury. It has happened before. They have the right.
I believe too RF will send Kovtun to individuals and Plushy in the team, unless Plushy scores really well in Team. That way Evgeni will end his career with a Team Russia medal and Kovtun will skate and have the experience for 2018. I m sure they will do sth like this, cause how many times one skater can peak in 8 days?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

You can substitute if a skater is injured, which is what many suspect the Russian federation will orchestrate... as in Kovtun or Plushenko skates in the team event, and after that event is over, they cite "injury" allowing the other one to compete in the individual event.

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I know, I said that, I was replying to this

But I think he should substitute Plushenko for the team event.

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If Plushenko gets 'injured' and Kovtun is the substitute in the team event then he will do individuals too, meaning Kovtun will do all competition.
So whats the reason for Plush to even go in Sochi if he is replaced from Team event?

seniorita said:

Yes but it is not any abusement of rules to withdraw a skater due to injury. It has happened before. They have the right.

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I stand by my previous post.
As discussed above, the rules dictate that based on its results at 2013 Worlds, Russia is entitled to one man in the individual competition for the discipline and that it is only the same man who is eligible to compete in the team event.
The hypothetical scenario envisioned by wallylutz and CSG in this thread is that Russia would decide in advance to make a spurious claim that a skater is injured -- with the sole purpose of circumventing the rules as to who competes in the individual and team events.
Such deception and manipulation absolutely would be abuse of the rules. Totally indefensible abuse.

And such abuse would be unprecedented. 2014 is the first time the Olympics will have the team skating competition.

I dont understand the abusement, if the rules say you can replace an injured skater, and a skater claims injury, the doctors confirm he/she is injured what is the problem? Hypothetically Russia would decide in advance means nothing to me, will they apply in advance? No. Thats a pure speculation point written on the board just. I dont know what is going on behind any door of any Federation.
If during Olympcs Plushenko or whoever gets injured and asks for a substite, they have the right of replacement. If you believe he is truly injured or not, it is not their problem. They have the right of replacement in case of injury regardless of the spots they have.
Did Usa abused the rules for replacing Michael Kwan in 2006? I dont think so.

seniorita said:

... Did Usa abused the rules for replacing Michael Kwan in 2006? I dont think so.

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Kwan's withdrawal (and replacement) vs. the notion of a Plushenko/Kovtun bait-and-switch is a case of comparing apples and oranges.

Point A:

Point B:

Point C:

A claim that Plushenko is injured would not be spurious or fake: he's had multiple health issues and surgeries and I imagine that he deals with pain and minor injuries constantly. It would just be a matter of drawing the line at a specific point. I for one hope he can compete in the team event, and also hope that he does not overdo it and cause himself significant long-term problems.

Personally I think it's really unfair that the team event skaters have to be the same ones who'd compete in the individual events. It puts some skaters at a distinct disadvantage.

So I don't know about this, what is correct rule for putting in 2nd skater because injury? Can it happen during team event or only after it with only one spot?

Buttercup said:

A claim that Plushenko is injured would not be spurious or fake: he's had multiple health issues and surgeries and I imagine that he deals with pain and minor injuries constantly. It would just be a matter of drawing the line at a specific point. I for one hope he can compete in the team event, and also hope that he does not overdo it and cause himself significant long-term problems. ...

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I am aware that Plushenko has a history of injuries.
But if he is healthy enough to compete in the team SP (or SP/FS), but then claims injury that prevents him from competing in the individual men's events, any reasonable person might feel unsure of his veracity -- given the advantageous repercussions of replacing him with Kovtun at that point.

golden411 said:

But if he is healthy enough to compete in the team SP (or SP/FS), but then claims injury that prevents him from competing in the individual men's events, any reasonable person might feel unsure of his veracity -- given the advantageous repercussions of replacing him with Kovtun at that point.

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Advantageous to whom? To Kovtun? Certainly Russia won't get a medal out of him.

It would be perfectly reasonable to say after the team event that Plushenko has aggravated an injury or that his body can't take another competition without almost no recovery time. I personally would find it completely believable for him to WD from any event, at any time. The man is an amazing competitor, but he's held up by tape, strings, and sheer force of will.

Buttercup said:

Advantageous to whom? To Kovtun? Certainly Russia won't get a medal out of him.

It would be perfectly reasonable to say after the team event that Plushenko has aggravated an injury or that his body can't take another competition without almost no recovery time. I personally would find it completely believable for him to WD from any event, at any time. The man is an amazing competitor, but he's held up by tape, strings, and sheer force of will.

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I agree with that - what I think that golden411 has a problem with is the scenario in which it is planned in advance for Plushy not to do the individual event - rather than assessing the situation at the time of the event, and how he is feeling then. If that is so, then I agree with her.

I do think, however, that this assumed pre-planned withdrawal - that has been extensively discussed in this thread and elsewhere, to the point that speculation is almost becoming "a truth universally acknowledged" (which is what happens when something is repeated often enough) - is "reckoning without the host", so to speak. And that is Plushy's personality and character.

Myself, I don't see Plushy as being either that cynical... or that selfless.

I doubt he has struggled with injuries and pain and all he has gone through these years just to finally aid in some Rus Fed power politics shenanigans.

Or that he - if he still thinks himself capable of skating respectably - would benignly step aside in favour of giving the young'un a shot, giving Kovtun a fatherly - or grandfatherly? - pat on the head, saying: "Bless you, my child! Go forth and do what I cannot!" By respectable skate I mean clean skates with reasonably high technical content. He has said himself that if he does not feel himself up to it, he won't compete.

Also, I think he wants to do the 4 skates and compete in the individual as well. If he is capable of this, only time will tell. Of course, this is only my assesment of his character - and the mileage of others may, and seemingly, do vary on this point.

What does boggles my mind to the point of bafflement is, however, this.

Do people really think that Plushy would give up in advance? Really?

LRK said:

I think that golden411 has a problem with is the scenario in which it is planned in advance for Plushy not to do the individual event - rather than assessing the situation at the time of the event, and how he is feeling then. If that is so, then I agree with her.

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Yes, I know what golden is saying. I disagree. My point is that Plushenko is already skating with various injuries/health concerns. He might have a couple of good programs in him, but not enough to skate both the team and individual. Under these circumstances, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to plan ahead of time to skate as much as his body can take - most likely, just the team event and perhaps only part of it - and then step aside because of his preexisting medical issues. I don't care if it's a firm plan, a tentative plan, or not a plan at all and just something that might arise. This is not faking an injury and there's nothing in it that runs contrary to the spirit of competition.

Buttercup said:

Personally I think it's really unfair that the team event skaters have to be the same ones who'd compete in the individual events. It puts some skaters at a distinct disadvantage.

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I have wondered about this. What do the skaters say? I bet a lot of them look forward to skating their hearts out in the team event, then coming back and doing it all over the next week in individual competition. Most sports are like that, with preliminary heats, different events within the discipline, one game after another in a tournament, etc.

About Michelle Kwan in 2006, in retrospect I think there was something a bit unsporting about the situation. It was quite obvious that Michelle would not be able to compete. Her last appearance that year, in December, was at a phone-in-the-vote cheesefest at which she could barely walk, much less skate. (She won anyway. )

But the powers that be -- the USFSA, the USOC, network television, corporate sponsors such as Coca-Cola – had so much invested in her that she had to put her face in front of the cameras come hell or high water.

Oh well. No harm, no foul.

^I don't like team event to be before the individuals, otherwise they are many sports with prelim days during Olympic Games, but this is not Q round, it is a final. Yes gymnastics have it too, but there are multiple athletes for the team that might not be competing in individuals finals.

I wonder if it is possible for a skater to peak twice in one week, the athletes that will target for individual medals will have their mind to reserve some strength for the next days, while athletes that don't have much chance otherwise can give everything for the team. Which is the great thing about team event, to give medals to skaters that are not so strong alone but would work in a team. I m afraid if it will affect individual competitions, it is sort of puzzling this concept debutes in Olympic Games.

Finally all sports and athletes have a strategy, that changes even during ongoing competition, with a target to win or present well especially in the Games, in this sport it is more obvious since the federations have more power than athletes themselves

golden411 said:

Such deception and manipulation absolutely would be abuse of the rules. Totally indefensible abuse.

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Oh, pleeeease...
If the rules are stupid and inhuman, there is nothing wrong with abusing them. People who decided to place the team event before the individual, and then demand the same person to do everything, know nothing about skating and what skaters have to go through when performing. The LP is something different than a few seconds mechanical gymnastic routine.

^ Suck it up, skaters. A beach volleyball match takes 1 to 2 hours. At the 2012 Games Misty May and Kerry Walsh played matches on July 28, July 30, August 1, August 3, August 5, August 7, and August 9. Michael Phelps…well, never mind.

A skater can go 2:50 on Thursday and 4:30 on Saturday, and then do it again a week later. Dig deep. :yes:

Buttercup said:

Yes, I know what golden is saying. I disagree. My point is that Plushenko is already skating with various injuries/health concerns. He might have a couple of good programs in him, but not enough to skate both the team and individual. Under these circumstances, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to plan ahead of time to skate as much as his body can take - most likely, just the team event and perhaps only part of it - and then step aside because of his preexisting medical issues. I don't care if it's a firm plan, a tentative plan, or not a plan at all and just something that might arise. This is not faking an injury and there's nothing in it that runs contrary to the spirit of competition.

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Oh, I expressed myself poorly - I should probably have said "if I understand golden correctly" - I did not mean to imply that you did not.

a 75% Plushy should still compete in Team then if he really cant take the toll then Kovtun can sub him.
I think this is also the scenario that the Rus Fed is picturing

LRK said:

Oh, I expressed myself poorly - I should probably have said "if I understand golden correctly" - I did not mean to imply that you did not.

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No, you were fine - I just wanted to emphasize that my response was based on disagreement with the argument made and not due to a misunderstanding.

Wow, where to begin? I'll respond one more time, starting with the Olympic oath:


Where I come from, planning an injury and withdrawal would show disrespect for the rules, would violate the spirit of sportsmanship, and would bring dishonor to the team.

BTW, I should have noted from the beginning that I am not a Plushenko hater. Like LRK, I hope that Plushenko himself is perfectly willing to skate four programs in Sochi. In fact, IIRC, he has said that he is game to do so.

But if the Russian federation and Plushenko decide that they are immune from the rules, then it would only be fair to allow other feds and skaters to disregard them.
So let' see ... China (like Russia) earned only one slot for the men's discipline, so why not allow China also to enter different men in the team and individual competitions? Would the same tactic of planning for a man to be injured be acceptable if China were the perpetrator?
If Joannie Rochette decides that she wants to skate for Canada only in the team competition, why not allow her to do so?
If Japan would like four of her men to skate in the individual competition -- and if the U.S. would like three -- why not allow them to do so?
Etc., etc.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

You can substitute if a skater is injured, which is what many suspect the Russian federation will orchestrate... as in Kovtun or Plushenko skates in the team event, and after that event is over, they cite "injury" allowing the other one to compete in the individual event.

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I neglected to say earlier that I have not seen the official rules regarding injury/substitution pertaining specifically to the new combination in Sochi of the team and individual events. CSG, do you have a link to a document that spells them out?

Buttercup said:

Advantageous to whom? To Kovtun? Certainly Russia won't get a medal out of him.

It would be perfectly reasonable to say after the team event that Plushenko has aggravated an injury or that his body can't take another competition without almost no recovery time. I personally would find it completely believable for him to WD from any event, at any time. The man is an amazing competitor, but he's held up by tape, strings, and sheer force of will.

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Others discussed the advantages to Russia and to Plushenko earlier in the thread.

If Plushenko were to skate in the team competition, and Kovtun in the individual competition, then Plushenko would have a very good chance at a team medal without the responsibility of the individual competition. Plushenko would have the privilege and glory of representing Russia in the home Olympics without the perception of "bigfooting" young Kovtun and depriving him of the same privilege and glory. Medal or no medal, Kovtun would gain valuable Olympic experience and exposure that would be beneficial in his future career. Etc., etc.

LRK said:

I agree with that - what I think that golden411 has a problem with is the scenario in which it is planned in advance for Plushy not to do the individual event - rather than assessing the situation at the time of the event, and how he is feeling then. If that is so, then I agree with her.

I do think, however, that this assumed pre-planned withdrawal - that has been extensively discussed in this thread and elsewhere, to the point that speculation is almost becoming "a truth universally acknowledged" (which is what happens when something is repeated often enough) - is "reckoning without the host", so to speak. And that is Plushy's personality and character.

Myself, I don't see Plushy as being either that cynical... or that selfless.

I doubt he has struggled with injuries and pain and all he has gone through these years just to finally aid in some Rus Fed power politics shenanigans.

Or that he - if he still thinks himself capable of skating respectably - would benignly step aside in favour of giving the young'un a shot, giving Kovtun a fatherly - or grandfatherly? - pat on the head, saying: "Bless you, my child! Go forth and do what I cannot!" By respectable skate I mean clean skates with reasonably high technical content. He has said himself that if he does not feel himself up to it, he won't compete.

Also, I think he wants to do the 4 skates and compete in the individual as well. If he is capable of this, only time will tell. Of course, this is only my assesment of his character - and the mileage of others may, and seemingly, do vary on this point.

What does boggles my mind to the point of bafflement is, however, this.

Do people really think that Plushy would give up in advance? Really?

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:agree: Thanks for the great post, LRK.

Buttercup said:

Yes, I know what golden is saying. I disagree. My point is that Plushenko is already skating with various injuries/health concerns. He might have a couple of good programs in him, but not enough to skate both the team and individual. Under these circumstances, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to plan ahead of time to skate as much as his body can take - most likely, just the team event and perhaps only part of it - and then step aside because of his preexisting medical issues. I don't care if it's a firm plan, a tentative plan, or not a plan at all and just something that might arise. This is not faking an injury and there's nothing in it that runs contrary to the spirit of competition.

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Yikes. I agree to strongly disagree.
I really hope that Plushenko will not stoop to the level of flouting the rules. He is a champion, and fair play should mean something to him -- even if it means nothing to you.

itoja said:

Oh, pleeeease...
If the rules are stupid and inhuman, there is nothing wrong with abusing them. People who decided to place the team event before the individual, and then demand the same person to do everything, know nothing about skating and what skaters have to go through when performing. The LP is something different than a few seconds mechanical gymnastic routine.

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If any athlete is unwilling to abide by the rules, then s/he cannot take the Olympic oath in good faith and should not compete in the Games.

Mathman said:

I have wondered about this. What do the skaters say? I bet a lot of them look forward to skating their hearts out in the team event, then coming back and doing it all over the next week in individual competition. Most sports are like that, with preliminary heats, different events within the discipline, one game after another in a tournament, etc.

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Mathman said:

^ Suck it up, skaters. A beach volleyball match takes 1 to 2 hours. At the 2012 Games Misty May and Kerry Walsh played matches on July 28, July 30, August 1, August 3, August 5, August 7, and August 9. Michael Phelps…well, never mind.

A skater can go 2:50 on Thursday and 4:30 on Saturday, and then do it again a week later. Dig deep. :yes:

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Thanks for your good points, Mathman. Strongly agree. Some skaters indeed have said that they are excited to compete for a team medal as well as an individual medal.
And Michael Phelps is a terrific example of competing in numerous heats -- and in both individual and relay events. And he has done so at three different Olympics.

Mathman said:

About Michelle Kwan in 2006, in retrospect I think there was something a bit unsporting about the situation. It was quite obvious that Michelle would not be able to compete. Her last appearance that year, in December, was at a phone-in-the-vote cheesefest at which she could barely walk, much less skate. (She won anyway. )

But the powers that be -- the USFSA, the USOC, network television, corporate sponsors such as Coca-Cola – had so much invested in her that she had to put her face in front of the cameras come hell or high water.

Oh well. No harm, no foul.

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I don't think anything was unsporting on the actual field of play. "Unsporting" only in terms of marketing, I would say.

golden411 said:

Where I come from...

.... I don't think anything was unsporting on the actual field of play. "Unsporting" only in terms of marketing, I would say.

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I see, where you come from you like to have big words on your mouth, but see nothing wrong in lying for money...

golden411 said:

So let' see ... China (like Russia) earned only one slot for the men's discipline, so why not allow China also to enter different men in the team and individual competitions? Would the same tactic of planning for a man to be injured be acceptable if China were the perpetrator?
If Joannie Rochette decides that she wants to skate for Canada only in the team competition, why not allow her to do so?
If Japan would like four of her men to skate in the individual competition -- and if the U.S. would like three -- why not allow them to do so?
Etc., etc.

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Looks like after writing your first two examples you have catch how much better the event would be if that would be allowed, so you had to come up with the third, ridiculous argument