Psychologizing skaters: attributing success and failure to mental states | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Psychologizing skaters: attributing success and failure to mental states

louisa05

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
:agree:

The mental aspect is a big part of all sport, this one especially. There are certain skaters who always skate well under relatively little pressure but never skate well under immense pressure. You can't describe that skater without describing the mental component. I don't think that I am a "hater", but the term "headcase" seems to apply to at least a few of them. Trying to figure out the mental aspect is an integral part of accurately understanding the sport. The mental aspect is a fact of the sport. Are we just supposed to ignore the reality of it?

Even the best and highest-winning skaters occasionally get mental blow-outs. Some skaters, we all know, get them more frequently. (We each have our own list and I am not going to give you mine. :p ) It does not mean that they are bad skaters, but it does mean that they have mental issues affecting their competitive standing (at least at a particular time). I can't imagine anyone on this board, when making predictions about who is going to win which event, not taking into account the mental state of the skater based on their past performances. And if there actually is, I would love to wager a few bets with them.

Regarding the term headcase, whether it is used properly or improperly, nicely or in hate, it depends on the nature and motive of the user. It can be appropriate and it can be used without mal-intent. I don't think that I have ever used it (although I may have), but I sure have thought it. There are "haters", very true, and they over-use terms like "headcase", but I don't think that they would be slowed down without the term being there. As well, the term can be used in contexts of fair objectivity (or at least in a way that is as objective as an opinion or perception can be).

This is a competitive sport. People judge the competitors and they can't help but assess the mental aspect, as best as possible, of the skaters over time based on performance. It is part of the way we rank the skaters. Anyone who cannot handle that should not compete as a skater and maybe not even in sports. I respect the compassion and kindness of the contrary opinion, but I cannot agree with it. Sorry.

Not sure that is the best word choice. In the U.S., the phrase "mental issues" typically refers to actual mental illness. Performance anxiety is not a mental illness.

Once upon a time in my life, I directed high school plays and coached competitive speech. I think I directed 16 shows. Not sure. Lost count somewhere along the way. Performance anxiety is a normal part of any performance and is typically worse if the performance is being formally judged rather than just watched for enjoyment. My kids could perform a competitive one-act without a hitch on our home stage for their parents and friends. But two days later at contest with judges in the front row, someone might forget the culminating line of the play (that really happened once). The problem is that with higher stakes, they have way more adrenaline caused by nerves. Some are better able to control that reaction and handle it than others. And some never learn how to control it. I had one student who I caught doing frantically fast push-ups right before curtain time one year. I made him stop, but he'd already done 50. When Agnes led after the short at Nats in 2012 and was jumping up and down on her skates at the boards, I thought of him. In that musical performance, he tanked his first solo. And we know what happened to Agnes. His push-ups and her jumping up and down were both nervous energy caused by that burst of adrenaline. Not mental illness or weakness or being unprepared. The key is learning how to handle it and that part does not come naturally.
 

spikydurian

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Off topic, but speaking of spelling bees, why are Indian children better spellers than anyone else in the U.S.?

The last six winners of the National Spelling Bee are Sameer Mishra, Kavya Shivashankar, Anamika Veeramani, Sukanya Roy, Snigdha Nandipati, and Arvind Mahankali (edging out Vismaya Kharkar (6th), Vanya Shivashankar (sister of Kavya, 5th), Nikitha Chandran, Amber Born (!!!, 4th), Sriram Hathwar (bronze), and Pranav Sivakumar (silver).

Me, I'm too much of a head case to watch the National Spelling Bee on TV. It makes me too nervous. :yes:
It must be genetic. ;) People of Indian origin tend to dominate in IT and law too ... all require some kind of logical thinking skills? And oops.. memory too.

golden said:
And I would add that of the spellers whom you listed, I'm pretty sure that one or more actually is of Pakistani -- as opposed to Indian -- descent
I THINK 'Pakistan' was part of the India until they broke away to form a different state to cater for the majority Muslims?
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Off topic, but speaking of spelling bees, why are Indian children better spellers than anyone else in the U.S.?

The last six winners of the National Spelling Bee are Sameer Mishra, Kavya Shivashankar, Anamika Veeramani, Sukanya Roy, Snigdha Nandipati, and Arvind Mahankali (edging out Vismaya Kharkar (6th), Vanya Shivashankar (sister of Kavya, 5th), Nikitha Chandran, Amber Born (!!!, 4th), Sriram Hathwar (bronze), and Pranav Sivakumar (silver)

Well, they started their education spelling those names of theirs.
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Not sure that is the best word choice. In the U.S., the phrase "mental issues" typically refers to actual mental illness. Performance anxiety is not a mental illness.

I don't think of it that way. I think of "issues" simply as problems in a certain area. There are a lot of human experiences or traits that I'd call "mental/emotional/psychological issues" that wouldn't qualify someone for some mental disorder diagnosis. What other term could one use to refer to a problem that has to do with the mind? (Honest question. If there's a term that doesn't make people think "mentally ill" it'd be useful to know what it is.)

As for the original topic, guess I agree with phaeljones that I don't really think there's anything wrong with talking about the mental side of competing. It's a major factor, after all. However, it does go too far when people act as if being a "tough competitor" or a "headcase" is some fixed trait that doesn't change, rather than just a reflection of where the skater is at right now. A skater known for being a "tough competitor" might begin to struggle when circumstances change (they become a defending world champion, for example, and deal with being "the hunted"), or a "headcase" skater might gain confidence and experience and become more consistent. There are also different factors that people might struggle with: one skater might be skate well at nationals but have trouble on the world stage, while another would feel more pressure at home. One might be consistent for years and crumble at the Olympics; another might be erratic for years and have the skate of their life at the Olympics. So I do think labeling one as tough/fragile can be problematic.
 

louisa05

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
I don't think of it that way. I think of "issues" simply as problems in a certain area. There are a lot of human experiences or traits that I'd call "mental/emotional/psychological issues" that wouldn't qualify someone for some mental disorder diagnosis. What other term could one use to refer to a problem that has to do with the mind? (Honest question. If there's a term that doesn't make people think "mentally ill" it'd be useful to know what it is.)

As for the original topic, guess I agree with phaeljones that I don't really think there's anything wrong with talking about the mental side of competing. It's a major factor, after all. However, it does go too far when people act as if being a "tough competitor" or a "headcase" is some fixed trait that doesn't change, rather than just a reflection of where the skater is at right now. A skater known for being a "tough competitor" might begin to struggle when circumstances change (they become a defending world champion, for example, and deal with being "the hunted"), or a "headcase" skater might gain confidence and experience and become more consistent. There are also different factors that people might struggle with: one skater might be skate well at nationals but have trouble on the world stage, while another would feel more pressure at home. One might be consistent for years and crumble at the Olympics; another might be erratic for years and have the skate of their life at the Olympics. So I do think labeling one as tough/fragile can be problematic.

There is a term. I gave it to you: performance anxiety. It is a natural phenomenon caused by adrenaline in a high stress situation before any type of public performance--dramatic, musical, sports, public speaking, etc...I also gave you an example of how that anxiety can be worse in one situation than another--my perfect play cast performing in front of family and friends that turns into an error riddled bundle of nerves in front of competition judges.

Here is WebMD's article on the topic:

http://www.webmd.com/anxiety-panic/guide/stage-fright-performance-anxiety

It is a common response that should not really be classified as a mental or emotional issue. I found, actually, that when I discussed it with my actors and speakers as a perfectly normal response, it was easier for them to learn to cope.
 

Victura

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
I wonder sometimes about the most artistic yet notoriously inconsistent skaters. Do they have an artistic temperament that makes it hard for them to coach or be consistent?

Obviously, this depends on the person, but I would think that for some who truly feel the music and the performance, it might be a concentration issue. They might be so focused on the emotional aspect of a performance and find that it's difficult to shift focus when they have to suddenly gear up for a big jump.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
... I THINK 'Pakistan' was part of the India until they broke away to form a different state to cater for the majority Muslims?

Understand your point. :)
Mine was that I think it is possible that parents of one or more of the spelling champs might have been born in Pakistan (and would identify their heritage as Pakistani). I am no expert on either country, but I think the distinction could be quite significant to those who trace their roots to one or the other -- for exactly the reason that you state.

I think sometimes it's hard to understand why you can watch a skater do beautiful jumps during warm ups... and then they go out and bomb their jumps in the program. I think skating is just frustrating because the audience naturally wants an explanation for why someone isn't performing well, and the idea that they are folding under pressure is the simplest explanation that most people jump to. If you're more knowledgable about skating, then maybe you look at other issues and take time to listen to what skaters are saying in their interviews. .... Maybe Max Aaron is doing too many quads, maybe he's doing too many jumps too late in his program. ...

After Skate America, Max said that he had been "overthinking" there -- a relevant word for this thread that I don't think has been mentioned yet.

... What must also be recognized, IMO, is that there are very few public events, whether they be skating, or dance, or baseball, or spelling bees, which do not incorporate some communal notions of what is good or bad, better or worse, what wins or loses.

The vast majority of the audience do not spend time savoring, in even a local spelling bee, the creative ways in which a word can be (mis)spelled, except, perhaps, the parents of the offender, and maybe her third-grade boyfriend. ;) ...

Sure, I can appreciate those who did not win but demonstrated excellence in some way, but I believe that we need to give "winning" its pride of place, not least because the skaters themselves do.

LOL, I was wondering what had prompted Mathman's post. Finally went back thru the thread and saw this one. Agree with Robeye's overall point.
Way back when, I was a young spelling bee geek ... and I also feel that Robeye's analogy is apt. Let's just say that a case of overthinking ended my spelling "career" ;). In hindsight, the correct spelling of an unfamiliar word turned out to be basically straightforward and phonetic -- but one of the vowels sounded ambiguous to me, and the more the pronunciation was repeated at my request, the more convinced I became of a letter that proved to be wrong.

... I think it's more about consistency and mental toughness-- to me that means being a good competitor. I know what people mean by headcase but how about finding another, more appropriate word for it. Why not just say "She's inconsistent".

Because inconsistency is too nonspecific to describe a lack of mental toughness, if that is the intended meaning. Inconsistency could be caused simply by insufficient physical training.

All "inconsistencies" stem from lack of training and/or lack of physical talent to a degree. ...

But psychological factors could be a cause of inconsistency, IMHO. I just don't think that they are the only cause of inconsistency.

... I think we ask a lot of these kids, in a way. To be a successful competitor at this sport, you'd have to be an extreme extrovert, feeling no nervousness at being judged or having no performance anxiety being in front of a crowd. But you'd also have to be an extreme introvert to give up most of your teenage social life to spend time in a rink with adults working on which way your foot is leaning on your lutz. It's a rare person who can be both.

Many of the elite skaters strike me as natural "life of the party"-types. Sacrificing a lot of social activities with friends from outside the rink is not the same as being extreme introverts, IMHO ... plus in some cases, it seems that a lot of off-ice socializing goes on among fellow skaters.
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
There is a term. I gave it to you: performance anxiety. It is a natural phenomenon caused by adrenaline in a high stress situation before any type of public performance--dramatic, musical, sports, public speaking, etc...I also gave you an example of how that anxiety can be worse in one situation than another--my perfect play cast performing in front of family and friends that turns into an error riddled bundle of nerves in front of competition judges.

Yes, I know what performance anxiety means, and I know what you posted earlier. I meant a more general term, something that refers to something happening in the mind that is causing someone problems. Because that is what I (and probably phaeljones) meant by the term. Performance anxiety is only one of many experiences that would fit into that category that is not a mental illness. I don't even think it's the only one that applies here; there are other reasons for lapses in concentration, etc.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I don't think of it that way. I think of "issues" simply as problems in a certain area. There are a lot of human experiences or traits that I'd call "mental/emotional/psychological issues" that wouldn't qualify someone for some mental disorder diagnosis. What other term could one use to refer to a problem that has to do with the mind? (Honest question. If there's a term that doesn't make people think "mentally ill" it'd be useful to know what it is.) ...

Am not criticizing Rachmaninoff for her/his choice of words.
That said, I would propose "factors," the word that I used above, as an alternative to placate those who insist that "issues" could have no interpretation other than "pathological issues." (Like Rachmaninoff, I myself consider "issues" to be a more neutral term. :confused2:)
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
In my opinion, any elite athlete that ISN'T addressing the psychological aspect of competing, is simply not fully trained.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
There is also the rare athlete who has the opposite of performance anxiety. When the chips are down instead of freaking out he goes into a zone and performs beyond his normal capacity.
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Not sure that is the best word choice. In the U.S., the phrase "mental issues" typically refers to actual mental illness. Performance anxiety is not a mental illness.

.

When I said mental issues, I did not mean "mental illness". Sorry if the context was not understood or misunderstood. I was not aware that the terms were used in the United States as interchangeable and identical. I am not an American. The two terms "mental illness" and "mental issues" are not necessarily identical, to my knowledge, in Canada. (I actually made some phone calls to check on this with people I know who work in the medical field.) Mental issue is a broader term and encompasses more than mental illness, and I hope that it would be clear from the context of what I wrote that I was not saying that performance anxiety is a mental illness. For here on in, I shall use the term "psychological issues" or (as ICD wonderfully used) "psychological aspect" so that there may be peace between the nations and the contributors from within them. :)
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Am not criticizing Rachmaninoff for her/his choice of words.
That said, I would propose "factors," the word that I used above, as an alternative to placate those who insist that "issues" could have no interpretation other than "pathological issues." (Like Rachmaninoff, I myself consider "issues" to be a more neutral term. :confused2:)

Thank you, that was the kind of answer I was looking for.

Really, I've been interacting with U.S.-based posters online pretty much since the internet became popular, and of course here in Canada we get a lot of American media (TV shows, magazines, etc.) and this the first I've heard that "issues" equals "mentally ill." I mean, I know people sometimes might refer to someone who may be mentally ill as having "issues" if they want to be delicate and indirect, but that isn't the real meaning of the term.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I really, really hate the word "headcase." So diminishing, dismissive, and many times inaccurate, but it's used with alarming frequency to describe figure skaters. I wish it would stop.


I agreeband have said before it is inappropriate and there are other ways to say it. "Sue has great jumps but she does get nervous in competition." It describes simply the issue and is not using a truly unfair word.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
.... In the U.S., the phrase "mental issues" typically refers to actual mental illness.

Disagree -- and I was born in the U.S., where I have lived my entire life.

When I said mental issues, I did not mean "mental illness". Sorry if the context was not understood or misunderstood. I was not aware that the terms were used in the United States as interchangeable and identical. I am not an American. The two terms "mental illness" and "mental issues" are not necessarily identical, to my knowledge, in Canada. (I actually made some phone calls to check on this with people I know who work in the medical field.) Mental issue is a broader term and encompasses more than mental illness, and I hope that it would be clear from the context of what I wrote that I was not saying that performance anxiety is a mental illness. For here on in, I shall use the term "psychological issues" or (as ICD wonderfully used) "psychological aspect" so that there may be peace between the nations and the contributors from within them. :)

... Really, I've been interacting with U.S.-based posters online pretty much since the internet became popular, and of course here in Canada we get a lot of American media (TV shows, magazines, etc.) and this the first I've heard that "issues" equals "mentally ill." I mean, I know people sometimes might refer to someone who may be mentally ill as having "issues" if they want to be delicate and indirect, but that isn't the real meaning of the term.

No worries, my Canadian friends. I agree with you -- and in my post earlier in the thread, I should have identified myself as American.

The way I see it is that what GS members have in common is an interest in figure skating -- not a professional background in mental health. It would be far-fetched to expect that the default mode for most of us is to use words in diagnostic sense. So in the context of GS:
If an ice dance couple receives Level 1s on the pattern dance, I think one could safely say that they have Finnstep issues. Or another couple might have twizzle issues. Yet another couple might be described as having mental issues -- without any implication of a scathing clinical pronouncement.​

I do not feel at all sure that most Americans would share louisa's opinion. I know that I don't.
 

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Off topic, but speaking of spelling bees, why are Indian children better spellers than anyone else in the U.S.?

The last six winners of the National Spelling Bee are Sameer Mishra, Kavya Shivashankar, Anamika Veeramani, Sukanya Roy, Snigdha Nandipati, and Arvind Mahankali (edging out Vismaya Kharkar (6th), Vanya Shivashankar (sister of Kavya, 5th), Nikitha Chandran, Amber Born (!!!, 4th), Sriram Hathwar (bronze), and Pranav Sivakumar (silver).

Me, I'm too much of a head case to watch the National Spelling Bee on TV. It makes me too nervous. :yes:

Nice derailing, Mathman. Awesome essentialism, too.
 

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
I disagree that you can't necessarily tell what is in a skater's mind. If you sit there and watch practice after pratice and the person does beautiful jumps and wonderful flowing run-throughs, and then that person shows up for the competition stiff as a board, splating throughout, I think it's fair to say they have a problem with nerves.

This is evidence, yes, in principle. The distinction between evidence and proof aside, what I meant to suggest was that in almost all cases, no one has the relevant evidence. (How many of us watch skaters do clean run-throughs over and over only to splat in competition? Many of us believe we have this evidence because television commentators make us believe we've seen such things.)

Do some skaters have psychological difficulties coping with high pressure competition? Of course. Many people have seemed to responded to my OP by saying, "Yes, they do." How fascinating, but that wasn't the question I began this thread with an interest in.

The question was, "How often is anyone in a position to informedly claim that the skater whose skate they just witnessed was particularly affected by her psychological state?"

In other words, to be blunt, I was complaining about people asserting that the skater they just saw skated well or skated poorly because of some psychological fortitude or lack of it.

My post wasn't about skaters' psychology. It was about commentator's opinions. It wasn't a call for skaters to get tough. It was a call for people opining about figure skating to get reasons (to support their public remarks).

Plus, the people commentating have been there.

It really depends on who is commenting and who is being commented on. This is one reason Tara Lipinski is really poorly qualified to be a television commentator, mainstream America name-recognition aside. What non-useless thing could she possibly say about Suzuki or Kostner, having retired at 15?

But, RobinA, I also meant to include all of us on the internet, not just paid television commentators.

As spectators of sports, we speculate on what is going on. The speculation can go over the top, but when it doesn't, it's part of the fun of spectating.

Yes, hypothesizing is fun. If only it were acknowledged for what it is, even half the time.

:agree:

The mental aspect is a big part of all sport, this one especially. There are certain skaters who always skate well under relatively little pressure but never skate well under immense pressure. You can't describe that skater without describing the mental component. I don't think that I am a "hater", but the term "headcase" seems to apply to at least a few of them. Trying to figure out the mental aspect is an integral part of accurately understanding the sport. The mental aspect is a fact of the sport. Are we just supposed to ignore the reality of it?

Even the best and highest-winning skaters occasionally get mental blow-outs. Some skaters, we all know, get them more frequently. (We each have our own list and I am not going to give you mine. :p ) It does not mean that they are bad skaters, but it does mean that they have mental issues affecting their competitive standing (at least at a particular time). I can't imagine anyone on this board, when making predictions about who is going to win which event, not taking into account the mental state of the skater based on their past performances. And if there actually is, I would love to wager a few bets with them.

Regarding the term headcase, whether it is used properly or improperly, nicely or in hate, it depends on the nature and motive of the user. It can be appropriate and it can be used without mal-intent. I don't think that I have ever used it (although I may have), but I sure have thought it. There are "haters", very true, and they over-use terms like "headcase", but I don't think that they would be slowed down without the term being there. As well, the term can be used in contexts of fair objectivity (or at least in a way that is as objective as an opinion or perception can be).

This is a competitive sport. People judge the competitors and they can't help but assess the mental aspect, as best as possible, of the skaters over time based on performance. It is part of the way we rank the skaters. Anyone who cannot handle that should not compete as a skater and maybe not even in sports. I respect the compassion and kindness of the contrary opinion, but I cannot agree with it. Sorry.

Who is the person whose view you think you have disagreed with so strongly that you think you need to apologize to them, phaeljones? I don't think anyone, certainly not me, was saying that skaters are not affected by mental factors.

I just think it would be terrific if folks would stop asserting that particular skaters are "headcases" (or the like) or are (I guess) "stoics." Most of us just have no idea. All we see is the skate.
 

MasterB

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Lets see,

As a former competitor I too freaked out and rarely performed to my full abilities. I used to get so pissed at missing jumps that I would just train more, but that was not the answer. The thing with skating is that it is really difficult to simulate a competitive atmosphere. During training we train our program but, there is no audience. Skating your program with the costume on and with an audience is the real training that most skaters are missing. In the summer our rink used to have simulated competitions every Friday night and that use to help a lot.

Skaters like Agnes, Alyssa, Kostner, Abbott, and several others need that kind of training.
 
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