Is Romeo and Juliet working for Ashley? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Is Romeo and Juliet working for Ashley?

penguin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
What I meant was that there is more than one way to interpret the music. Some people seemed to be miffed that she was not portraying Juliet the way that they imagined her to or wasn't portraying Juliet "enough"--and I don't agree with that. I don't think literal interpretations work for everyone, but if they do, more power to them.

Definitely agree with this. Telling a story in a program can be really effective, but it's not the only way to skate to a piece of music (and sometimes the really literal programs go too far and seem hokey to me). Caro regularly skates to classical pieces that don't come with a built-in story or character, and she has arguably the best interpretation skills in the business. I like Ashley's Juliet, and appreciate that she displays strength that a lot of others lack. It's not my favorite program for her but if she can do it clean, I think it'll do the job.
 

MalloryArcher

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
it's a beautiful cut of music, but I'm not sure she's doing all she can with it. The sweeping slow section is the real highlight and she needs I think a more definitive choreographic statement here to make it memorable.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
the Black Swan looks best for her, imo. This program is average. Julia's is better..She should go back to the BS w/o doubt!

^^^
THIS! I wish Ashley would go back to "Black Swan" for her FS. Imo she has no connection to R&J except that she's trying to put on some soulful looks here and there. Sorry to those who disagree but she is just not believable as a Juliet. She is doing well PCS-wise so I suppose that she should keep it but this to me is not an 'Olympian' program like "Black Swan" could have been.

I've been saying all season that Ashley skates like a robot. I felt somewhat vindicated when - although they said it more nicely - that Johnny and Tara agreed. She doesn't connect with the music and the crowd. There is little emotion on her face. I don't think this cut of this music suits her well.

But for those of you who are saying a skater doesn't have to portray the character from the music - what about Lipnitskaya and her Schindler's List? I would agree if she wasn't wearing "the red dress!"

ITA. I thought Johnny said it best too during the GPF coverage. Glad to know I wasn't the only one that thought this program is just not the best fit for Ashley. Even if she doesn't have to portray Juliet to skate the music (although I believe she has stated that she IS skating as Juliet - just not the victim Juliet but one who fights for love or whatever) I just don't see the connection between her and the music. She could be skating to anything imo.

What I meant was that there is more than one way to interpret the music. Some people seemed to be miffed that she was not portraying Juliet the way that they imagined her to or wasn't portraying Juliet "enough"--and I don't agree with that. I don't think literal interpretations work for everyone, but if they do, more power to them.

But Ashley herself, as I said above, stated that she IS portraying Juliet - I think in one article (I'm trying to find it) she said that at first she was playing Juliet as victim and then she decided to play Juliet as triumphant with love or something along those lines and it's just not coming through for me anyway quite frankly with all the soulful looks, etc.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Ashley always struck me as someone who does better with something sort of quirky, like the Black Swan. Romeo and Juliet is too conventional and balletic for her. She should think about changing it, although it may be too late.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
I very much doubt that Ashley is going to change her LP at this late stage of the game - but I sure wish that she would.
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
Medalist
Joined
May 4, 2013
Everytime I watched Ashley Wagner's free to Romeo and Juliet, I ended up thinking "maybe I'll like it more after having seen it a couple more times". But I'm fairly sure by now I just don't like the music arrangement.
I know that the skaters want to have original music, so for such a popular theme, that can mean picking pieces that have not been used in the past, but here, I can't help but feel: "they haven't been used for a reason!"
It's like "Romeo and Juliet - the worst of": just the gloomy pieces, almost none of the melodic stuff.
Prokofiev's and Nino Rota's R&J are obviously vastly different, but have a look at Susanna Pöikio's R&J and tell me how it compares for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Fdc0J81gI (seriously, it's beautiful, take a look if you don't know it!)

Since developing a new program and "getting comfortable with it" at this point would take too much focus off the regular practice (keyword being: triple-triple!), the only realistic chance IF she decided to switch would be to go back to a previous program. Then, as I believe almost everybody here, I'd hope it would be Black Swan, which was her best imo.
From all her programs over the years, I really think this SP to Pollock from 2 years ago - and the overall mood - suits her best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeRTxltdMQc
I just prefer this style where she has a "rascally" smile rather than this hugely exagerated "looks-like-in-pain" facial expression at the beginning of Romeo and Juliet or Sheherazade. The music does make you smile too, it's just light and "sophisticated/clever".
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Okay, Ashley is clearly not Juliet because:

(1) She is not thirteen.
(2) Ashley should not be portraying an angsty barely-teenager. She is more than twenty years old.
(3) This is her own spin on things. I honestly don't want to see overtly-literal portrayals all the time.

Re not being 13: Very few, if any actresses, who have played the role, especially on the stage, have been thirteen. Vivien Leigh was in her mid-twenties , I believe, when she played the role on Broadway with Laurence Olivier. Thirteen was not that young when life expectancy during the time was so low compared to today.

If it is her spin on things, what is the spin, especially when she was implying she was stabbing herself in one of the performances?
Maybe the problem is Ashley does not clearly understand what she is doing with the program.

Both Tara and Johnny sent her a message she needs to hear---and soon.
 

amc987

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
I don't think it's realistic for Ashley to scrap the program and I don't think it's necessary. The middle section could be improved. Is there any chance she might re-edit some of the music cuts to include Dance of the Knights? It feels like there's very little going on from Ashley's sit spin combo (when the music becomes slower) to when she does her layback. I realize there are a bunch of triple jumps in that section and it feels like a jump drill. That part is especially boring because it seems to not really fit with the music- she chooses some of the softest and most delicate music to spend on her jump elements while the more bombastic parts are where she's doing the majority of her choreographic/ emotional work. I think that's partly why the music feels so big and she seems less connected to it than she should be.

If there was a way to move the soft section forward so that it overlaps with her step sequence and then include Dance of the Knights in the section where she does all the jumps and then have that transition into her final choreographic sequence with the camel spin/ stabbing herself, she might have a more coherent program. I guess it would involve cutting some of the music she uses from her first triple salchow to the sit spin, but I don't think that would be a big loss.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
Okay, Ashley is clearly not Juliet because:

(1) She is not thirteen.
(2) Ashley should not be portraying an angsty barely-teenager. She is more than twenty years old.
(3) This is her own spin on things. I honestly don't want to see overtly-literal portrayals all the time.

Re not being 13: Very few, if any actresses, who have played the role, especially on the stage, have been thirteen. Vivien Leigh was in her mid-twenties , I believe, when she played the role on Broadway with Laurence Olivier. Thirteen was not that young when life expectancy during the time was so low compared to today.

If it is her spin on things, what is the spin, especially when she was implying she was stabbing herself in one of the performances?
Maybe the problem is Ashley does not clearly understand what she is doing with the program.

Both Tara and Johnny sent her a message she needs to hear---and soon.

It is true that very few actresses (if any?) were 13 when they portrayed Juliet. I think that on film Olivia Hussey was one of the youngest actresses to portray her. In 1968, when "Romeo & Juliet" came to movie theatres she was 17 so I'm assuming she was perhaps 16 years old during production.

I'll still keep dreaming that Ashley goes back to "Black Swan" for the Olympics. It was her best LP ever imo.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
when she is clean it is fine; it is probably not the best for her but it is fine. not great. At least she is clear of her gender and you know she isn't trying to be Romeo - unlike Hanyu who sometimes comes off as a gender issued Romeo/Juiliet with a lovely Johnny Weir flounce running across his chest.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I understand why she did it... but I think if she wanted to use a tried and true war horse, Don Q would've been a better fit than R&J...

that being said, I don't think it's as awful as people make it out to be...
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Okay, Ashley is clearly not Juliet because:

(1) She is not thirteen.
(2) Ashley should not be portraying an angsty barely-teenager. She is more than twenty years old.
(3) This is her own spin on things. I honestly don't want to see overtly-literal portrayals all the time.

Re not being 13: Very few, if any actresses, who have played the role, especially on the stage, have been thirteen. Vivien Leigh was in her mid-twenties , I believe, when she played the role on Broadway with Laurence Olivier. Thirteen was not that young when life expectancy during the time was so low compared to today.

If it is her spin on things, what is the spin, especially when she was implying she was stabbing herself in one of the performances?
Maybe the problem is Ashley does not clearly understand what she is doing with the program.

Both Tara and Johnny sent her a message she needs to hear---and soon.

OT -- Though life expectancy was certainly shorter in Shakespeare's time, I'm fairly certainly that a bride of thirteen was not so common. Most women were, on average, a few years older than that before they got married.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Aftertherain, What you say if true for those in Shakespeare's England and his time. R&J does not take place in England, but Italy and significantly earlier than Shakespeare's time.
During the medieval age, a marriage could take place from the age of seven if there was consent, but for the girl, consent could come from her parents even if she herself didn’t want the match.
As I indicated, Romeo and Juliet is a play about Italian families. Lady Capulet had given birth to her first child by the time she had reached Juliet's age: "By my count, I was your mother much upon these years that you are now a maid". LOL Maybe next season, Julia should skate R&J.
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
I think one of the problems is the sharpness in thematic contrast that exists between her short (strong contemporary warrior woman type aura) and free (all of the Juliet characterizations). She embodies the short program character so well, making the contrast (her relative shortcomings) stand out unflatteringly unfortunately.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Aftertherain, What you say if true for those in Shakespeare's England and his time. R&J does not take place in England, but Italy and significantly earlier than Shakespeare's time.
During the medieval age, a marriage could take place from the age of seven if there was consent, but for the girl, consent could come from her parents even if she herself didn’t want the match.
As I indicated, Romeo and Juliet is a play about Italian families. Lady Capulet had given birth to her first child by the time she had reached Juliet's age: "By my count, I was your mother much upon these years that you are now a maid". LOL Maybe next season, Julia should skate R&J.

But those marriages were arranged, the kids were not really in love, even the little girls played with dolls after the marriage.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
The problem is that Ashley can't portray lovey-dovey girly types. She can do a fighter archetype. Not sure why she chose R&J. It's too familiar, and people expect certain things from it, and she's not delivering it, which is OK if she delivers something else even more satisfying than what people are expecting. But that hasn't happened either. I don't think she's cerebral enough to do an abstract, modern interpretation/retelling of R&J either. (BTW - I'm not calling her stupid by this remark, but that I don't think she's reflective enough (and artistically mature and sure of herself at this point) to pull it off.)
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
To put it bluntly (since others have with Hanyu), Ashley is too "butch":eek: (note quotation marks) for R&J. She is a lovely young woman, but she is having to play against type with Juliet and is not skilled enough to do it.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
To put it bluntly (since others have with Hanyu), Ashley is too "butch":eek: (note quotation marks) for R&J. She is a lovely young woman, but she is having to play against type with Juliet and is not skilled enough to do it.

I'd prefer to describe her as "not lyrical". She pulled off her programs well the past two years with somewhat heavier pieces, and this music probably isn't complementing her natural style as well. We have so many discussions about programs but they factor in to the scores so much less than the person who is skating to them. No program would move her into the top 2 favorites or outside the top 5 favorites, assuming a competitive technical layout.
 

Coriana

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
I like Ashley, though I would hardly call myself a fan. But in defence of Juliet, please note that she was no shrinking violet or fainting tight laced heroine. She takes as much action as Romeo, and was equally hot blooded.
 
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