Ice Dance in the 1990's and other Vintage programs | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance in the 1990's and other Vintage programs

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I remember someone (maybe a TV commentator, maybe a fan) commenting about that program that it was refreshing to see a blues program that was about the blues rather than about sex. Does it work to look at that program as two underdressed people, possibly siblings, oppressed by heat and heavy life issues?

Interesting point. Today we are more used to couples having brother-sister vibes who can't muster the requisite romantic chemistry, i.e. D&W, Belbin & Agosto, Shibs, etc. Personally, I don't care for sappy romantic vibes, so it's not a problem for me. It used to be that ice dancers and pairs skaters were married or at least romantically involved, so during the Duchesnay's era, people were off-put by brother-sister vibes. Perhaps, in today's more open society with social media and traveling around the world gives skaters more opportunities to meet potential romantic partners. Certainly, Missing wasn't a dance between lovers. It could easily be about two siblings mourning over the loss of their loved ones during a dictatorship. Maybe it's true that familiarity breeds contempt or at least a lack of attraction, since D&W et al grew up together and don't find each other that hot.

Regarding Zamboni's comment - yes, Skategate cleaned up ice dance for the better. I'm not fond of the crazy COP system but at least I enjoy seeing different couples winning, for them to feel the need emulate others, and the fact that good programs do get rewarded mostly. The current system promotes the aim for excellence much more than the previous one, though it's flawed. In the past, it was moot point in trying hard. It was a matter of waiting for your seniors to retire and all about waiting in the wings.
 

Zamboni

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
I'm not terribly thrilled about the COP system either, especially for singles skaters, but it really has worked for Ice Dance. I'm glad the brilliance of certain North American teams has been recognized. I always felt so sorry for Punsalan and Swallow, for instance. I thought some of their programs were quite innovative. I especially remember their "Cars" program. But they were never allowed to really move up in the rankings.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
I remember someone (maybe a TV commentator, maybe a fan) commenting about that program that it was refreshing to see a blues program that was about the blues rather than about sex. Does it work to look at that program as two underdressed people, possibly siblings, oppressed by heat and heavy life issues?

Okay, you're making me squirm again almost 20 years on! :laugh: I think from a more mature perspective I could probably go back and watch that program without feeling icky like the first time around.

One of my all-time favorite programs from the Duchesnays was an exhibition program to a Beethoven piece (it was dramatic but I don't remember the name, one of his symphonies I believe but not the 5th, I'm not too familiar with classical/romance music). I remember they got a HUGE ovation at the end and it was well-deserved. I seem to recall they were both dressed in deep blue costumes too.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I'm not terribly thrilled about the COP system either, especially for singles skaters, but it really has worked for Ice Dance. I'm glad the brilliance of certain North American teams has been recognized. I always felt so sorry for Punsalan and Swallow, for instance. I thought some of their programs were quite innovative. I especially remember their "Cars" program. But they were never allowed to really move up in the rankings.

And their Tango '98. :bow: It was my favorite program that year hands down. Brilliant.:bow: Loved how Uncle Dick praised them to the skies as they deserved. They deserved to be on the podium actually but was actually 7th. Ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USD1m0zfXDY
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
One of my all-time favorite programs from the Duchesnays was an exhibition program to a Beethoven piece (it was dramatic but I don't remember the name, one of his symphonies I believe but not the 5th, I'm not too familiar with classical/romance music). I remember they got a HUGE ovation at the end and it was well-deserved. I seem to recall they were both dressed in deep blue costumes too.

7th Symphony. This was mentioned earlier in this thread. Another brilliant program. No other team has that kind of intensity.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
7th Symphony. This was mentioned earlier in this thread. Another brilliant program. No other team has that kind of intensity.

Thank you BlackPack!! I've been trying to find this out for oh only a decade or two!! I need to study up more on classical music. :biggrin:

I'm listening to Beethoven's complete 7th Symphony now -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqrBauptrE

The intense, dramatic movement that I remember starts at approximately 14:44.

Goodness how memories are flooding back! Here are the Duchesnays and that great Beethoven's 7th program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zXCnxE7W8

I feel so fortunate that I got to see this live!! And how I wish they had skated a competitive version of this number at the '92 Olympics instead of "West Side Story" (which I liked - but didn't love).
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Happy to help :biggrin:

I would like to have seen them evolve in the direction of the 7th Symphony. Missing was a program of youthful angst after all, while 7th Symphony represented their maturation and sobriety which I would like to see them develop. Unfortunately, they retired early for good.

West Side Story was a filler program. Had the content to win a medal but it fulfilled none of the expectations fans had for them. It certainly didn't express their potential.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
West Side Story was a filler program. Had the content to win a medal but it fulfilled none of the expectations fans had for them. It certainly didn't express their potential.

I liked it.

It was really the first I saw of them, since I didn't really start following skating closely until the 1992 Olympic season. (Not counting the mid-70s when I was skating myself and watching whatever skating was televised on ABC).

And that WSS story program in particular piqued my interest enough that I started searching for tapes of past programs, and took some ice dance lessons.

In fact, I could even say that that program was what made me a fan of ice dance.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I liked it.

It was really the first I saw of them, since I didn't really start following skating closely until the 1992 Olympic season. (Not counting the mid-70s when I was skating myself and watching whatever skating was televised on ABC).

And that WSS story program in particular piqued my interest enough that I started searching for tapes of past programs, and took some ice dance lessons.

In fact, I could even say that that program was what made me a fan of ice dance.

It's always fascinating to see other viewpoints and experiences.

If that was one of the first few ice dancing programs you saw, then it was interesting enough to pique your interest - some excellent Dean moves. In comparison to their past programs as you discovered later on, WSS didn't fully portray their talent. They were tight and nervous under home pressure to win the gold. They had slight stumbles here and there.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Always the same old excuses... Bloc judging, pre-judging... Sounds like a sweet melody.

The thing is, USSR/Russia dominated ice dancing for good reasons :
They had the best system to detect and train their athletes. The most skaters hence difficult nationals competition, thus overall quality & very top quality at the very top. Not surprising seeing teams coming out of nowhere and their juniors winning everything.
The best coaches of their era : Tchaikowskaya & Pakhomova then Linichuk & Dubova, only for the most famous ones. The notable exception was Betty Callaway, but I don't know her very well, with all my respect I feel she was there already for quite some time before the 70'.
The best conditions...
And the most gifted skaters/combination of skaters.

Yes there is politics playing a part, always when talking about figure skating but this was everybody's business ! Bad evil russians are so easy to blame. Specially in order to hide the fact of being less good/talented than them for so long.
There is politics from every sides at every levels, even the lower ones. I remember a judge from my club giving obvious overscores to his fellow training friends. One pretty vividly : he puts his friend first and the skate of the morning, clearly the best we would ever see that week end and cristal clean, fifth. It is everywhere, it doesn't mean the overall results are totally wrong. His friend still won only silver in the end and deservingly so.

Overall, who can deny G/P or K/P world wins ?
If not the british judge at the 1980 Olys, Regoczy Sallay would be Olympic champions as well as world champions. She admitted her mistake later, everybody can do one sure, it's just unlucky it happened here.
People forgot sometimes, it's just awfully close and as a judge sport, at one point, there must be a decision. A very quick one. Sometimes, there can be mistakes. Nowadays you can check and track see very easily on the internet. There's a part of human nature in it. It's a sport but and people try to forget, it's an art also and always was seen like this since it creation. From the perfect rigid art of english styles figures to today, it is what make figure skating successfull. And art has different sensibilities thus judging it and pleasing everybody isn't possible.

It's not surprising seeing NA ice dancing taking over the top spots once USSR old ice dancers generations retired. Specially when they are lead by Spillband, a russian coach, from a new generation. If you shake this up with COP and then a bit of luck : both DS out for 2010 gold because of various reasons ; you have an Olys 1-2 a 2011 world podium plus the whole quad golds & silvers. The epicenter moved, the results are still there.
From 1998 to 2010, junior north american ice dancers won a massive among of medals. And almost all the titles. Since 2010, it's all Russia for gold again, so I guess, 2018 will at least have two russian teams on the podium.

I don't understand also where come the myth of non movements during events or waiting your turn policies from.
The clearly most talented skaters usually climb up the rankings quite fast. Platov, from 89 to 94 moved up one spot each year. B/K went from 14th at 1993 worlds to a bronze medal three years later. It took also only three years to the Duchesnay to win a world medal while being from a virtually nobody federation at that time AND breaking the rules during their 89 OD & (possibly) FD. Don't talk about Pakhomova or T/D.

From my point of view, COP is worse than 6.0 when talking about ice dancing results. Since Denkova Staviski left, all the world victories where highly debated except maybe 2011 because of the reigning champions injury. Under 6.0, at least after Vancouver, no problem : V/M come and don't fall, then win. 2009 would have been intriging behind the doors too, hopefully one must think given the actual skating there.

And one more last utopie... G/P wins. Which one exactly would people take them away ?
You'll tell me then obviously 94 Olys. First, I strongly disagree, there's report from people in the area giving pretty good reasons why they deserved it. Also, T/D where past their prime with bad CDs & FD. Usova Zhulin ? Nice joke, a bit overused though.
And anyway, still 20 victories in a row.

The only other close call I can see was... 1997 Lalique Trophy ! I know it sounds like a joke too but it isn't. G/P were very rough and unprepared. First outing of the FD was a disaster, from costuming to the fall. They made changes and everything was back on track at NHK but with A/P having great programs and skates there, some can say maybe some judges should have placed them first in the FD. But this is very debatable because even despite all this, G/P where a still a wide class higher than A/P skating wise.

1998 Euros, even with a third in the OD, still first overall.
1994 worlds, sorry, I'm a M/L fan, but no way. Same for R/K.
1998 GPF. Even if you put the second in the OD because of the fall, they are still blowing everybody away with their FD.
I don't remember any other weak event from G/P during their time.

G/P winning streak at majors events :

1994 : Worlds
1995 : Worlds
1996 : Skate America (K/O second), Lalique Trophy (A/P second), GPF (K/O second), Euros (K/O second), Worlds (K/O second)
1997 : Euros (K/O second), Worlds (K/O second)
1998 : Lalique (A/P second), NHK (B/K second), GPF (B/K second), Euros (K/O second), Olys (K/O second)

Then there's some Japan Open, a north american challenge I forgot the name of and russian nationals when they went.
I don't see any unfair win here. Their streak could have been a lot bigger, remember they missed two GP series & one Euro because of injuries. They were sadly also the first reigning olympic champions skipping the post olys worlds.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Always the same old excuses... Bloc judging, pre-judging... Sounds like a sweet melody.

The thing is, USSR/Russia dominated ice dancing for good reasons :
They had the best system to detect and train their athletes. The most skaters hence difficult nationals competition, thus overall quality & very top quality at the very top. Not surprising seeing teams coming out of nowhere and their juniors winning everything.
The best coaches of their era : Tchaikowskaya & Pakhomova then Linichuk & Dubova, only for the most famous ones. The notable exception was Betty Callaway, but I don't know her very well, with all my respect I feel she was there already for quite some time before the 70'.
The best conditions...
And the most gifted skaters/combination of skaters.

Yes there is politics playing a part, always when talking about figure skating but this was everybody's business ! Bad evil russians are so easy to blame. Specially in order to hide the fact of being less good/talented than them for so long.
There is politics from every sides at every levels, even the lower ones. I remember a judge from my club giving obvious overscores to his fellow training friends. One pretty vividly : he puts his friend first and the skate of the morning, clearly the best we would ever see that week end and cristal clean, fifth. It is everywhere, it doesn't mean the overall results are totally wrong. His friend still won only silver in the end and deservingly so.

Overall, who can deny G/P or K/P world wins ?
If not the british judge at the 1980 Olys, Regoczy Sallay would be Olympic champions as well as world champions. She admitted her mistake later, everybody can do one sure, it's just unlucky it happened here.
People forgot sometimes, it's just awfully close and as a judge sport, at one point, there must be a decision. A very quick one. Sometimes, there can be mistakes. Nowadays you can check and track see very easily on the internet. There's a part of human nature in it. It's a sport but and people try to forget, it's an art also and always was seen like this since it creation. From the perfect rigid art of english styles figures to today, it is what make figure skating successfull. And art has different sensibilities thus judging it and pleasing everybody isn't possible.

It's not surprising seeing NA ice dancing taking over the top spots once USSR old ice dancers generations retired. Specially when they are lead by Spillband, a russian coach, from a new generation. If you shake this up with COP and then a bit of luck : both DS out for 2010 gold because of various reasons ; you have an Olys 1-2 a 2011 world podium plus the whole quad golds & silvers. The epicenter moved, the results are still there.
From 1998 to 2010, junior north american ice dancers won a massive among of medals. And almost all the titles. Since 2010, it's all Russia for gold again, so I guess, 2018 will at least have two russian teams on the podium.

I don't understand also where come the myth of non movements during events or waiting your turn policies from.
The clearly most talented skaters usually climb up the rankings quite fast. Platov, from 89 to 94 moved up one spot each year. B/K went from 14th at 1993 worlds to a bronze medal three years later. It took also only three years to the Duchesnay to win a world medal while being from a virtually nobody federation at that time AND breaking the rules during their 89 OD & (possibly) FD. Don't talk about Pakhomova or T/D.

From my point of view, COP is worse than 6.0 when talking about ice dancing results. Since Denkova Staviski left, all the world victories where highly debated except maybe 2011 because of the reigning champions injury. Under 6.0, at least after Vancouver, no problem : V/M come and don't fall, then win. 2009 would have been intriging behind the doors too, hopefully one must think given the actual skating there.

And one more last utopie... G/P wins. Which one exactly would people take them away ?
You'll tell me then obviously 94 Olys. First, I strongly disagree, there's report from people in the area giving pretty good reasons why they deserved it. Also, T/D where past their prime with bad CDs & FD. Usova Zhulin ? Nice joke, a bit overused though.
And anyway, still 20 victories in a row.

The only other close call I can see was... 1997 Lalique Trophy ! I know it sounds like a joke too but it isn't. G/P were very rough and unprepared. First outing of the FD was a disaster, from costuming to the fall. They made changes and everything was back on track at NHK but with A/P having great programs and skates there, some can say maybe some judges should have placed them first in the FD. But this is very debatable because even despite all this, G/P where a still a wide class higher than A/P skating wise.

1998 Euros, even with a third in the OD, still first overall.
1994 worlds, sorry, I'm a M/L fan, but no way. Same for R/K.
1998 GPF. Even if you put the second in the OD because of the fall, they are still blowing everybody away with their FD.
I don't remember any other weak event from G/P during their time.

G/P winning streak at majors events :

1994 : Worlds
1995 : Worlds
1996 : Skate America (K/O second), Lalique Trophy (A/P second), GPF (K/O second), Euros (K/O second), Worlds (K/O second)
1997 : Euros (K/O second), Worlds (K/O second)
1998 : Lalique (A/P second), NHK (B/K second), GPF (B/K second), Euros (K/O second), Olys (K/O second)

Then there's some Japan Open, a north american challenge I forgot the name of and russian nationals when they went.
I don't see any unfair win here. Their streak could have been a lot bigger, remember they missed two GP series & one Euro because of injuries. They were sadly also the first reigning olympic champions skipping the post olys worlds.

K&O could have beaten G&P at various junctions. It didn't happen.

It was already mentioned that there was plenty of movement in the rankings during the Golden Era of Ice Dancing - the early 90s. As John Curry mentioned, if you're talented, judges and pundits will recognize it and reward you, sometimes not right away, but eventually. He said it was terribly corrupt.

In the era of G&P, however, K&O was a clear case of waiting in the wings, even though they were good enough.

2002-2006 was about demolishing an old system and inaugurating a new one. 2002 Olympics, none of the ice dancers' LPs were anything as exciting and innovative as 1992 Olympics or 1991 Worlds. Of course, there was Skategate which proved bloc judging was real, so why are you going on about? Seriously, there is a need to understand complexity and subtlety, and not take sides. It was a disappointing Olympics for fans. I would have loved to see D&S win, but alas. B&A won the silver which was great, possibly their best finish ever. You would have expected them to be OGM and multiple World Champions, yet they never fulfilled the potential or maybe they didn't have much potential to begin with.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Interesting point. Today we are more used to couples having brother-sister vibes who can't muster the requisite romantic chemistry, i.e. D&W, Belbin & Agosto, Shibs, etc. Personally, I don't care for sappy romantic vibes, so it's not a problem for me. It used to be that ice dancers and pairs skaters were married or at least romantically involved, so during the Duchesnay's era, people were off-put by brother-sister vibes. Perhaps, in today's more open society with social media and traveling around the world gives skaters more opportunities to meet potential romantic partners. Certainly, Missing wasn't a dance between lovers. It could easily be about two siblings mourning over the loss of their loved ones during a dictatorship. Maybe it's true that familiarity breeds contempt or at least a lack of attraction, since D&W et al grew up together and don't find each other that hot.

I disagree with many of your comments. I think the Shibutani's, in particular, have been severely limited by being brother and sister. The Kerr's made it work by using very interesting and unique choreography, but the Hubbell's achieved level 4 squickiness with the program where he laid his head on her stomach while the vocals in the music talked about sexual desire.

There were couples in the 1980's and 1990's who were not romantically involved, but they could effectively portray romance - Torville & Dean, for example. Bestimianova & Bukin were not romantically involved with each other, but were able to portray romance. Bourne & Kraatz, Krylova & Ovsianikov, Annissina & Peizerat, Fusar-Poli & Margalio - none were married to or involved with one another. I certainly never had the impression that F-P&M had the slightest romantic interest in one another, even when they skated to Romeo & Juliet.

While I appreciate that not everyone is involved with their partner, I do think it necessary for them to have the ability to convey romantic themes. I consider the asexual vibe to be a weakness for D&W, but their technical brilliance is so strong that they are able to overcome it. Virtue & Moir are able to effectively convey romantic themes without being involved and that is one of their strengths.

I can understand why there are brother & sister teams: the shortage of male partners, the problems with having two sets of parents making decisions during the developmental years, the worry about a partner "moving on", etc., but I do think that it severely limits teams choices in both music and theme.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Sibling teams limit the use of sexual/romantic themes.

And many ballroom/OSP/OD themes had sex and romance built in.

But I don't see why any team should be expected or required to include sexual or romantic themes in their free dances. Even with the short dance, there's less need to make even the pattern portion (e.g., waltz or tango) "about" such a theme.

One thing I loved about the Duchesnays, and also the Kerrs, was the other options they came up with without defaulting to the same old same old.

Next step, same-sex free dance without sexual implications?
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I disagree with many of your comments. I think the Shibutani's, in particular, have been severely limited by being brother and sister. The Kerr's made it work by using very interesting and unique choreography, but the Hubbell's achieved level 4 squickiness with the program where he laid his head on her stomach while the vocals in the music talked about sexual desire.

There were couples in the 1980's and 1990's who were not romantically involved, but they could effectively portray romance - Torville & Dean, for example. Bestimianova & Bukin were not romantically involved with each other, but were able to portray romance. Bourne & Kraatz, Krylova & Ovsianikov, Annissina & Peizerat, Fusar-Poli & Margalio - none were married to or involved with one another. I certainly never had the impression that F-P&M had the slightest romantic interest in one another, even when they skated to Romeo & Juliet.

While I appreciate that not everyone is involved with their partner, I do think it necessary for them to have the ability to convey romantic themes. I consider the asexual vibe to be a weakness for D&W, but their technical brilliance is so strong that they are able to overcome it. Virtue & Moir are able to effectively convey romantic themes without being involved and that is one of their strengths.

I can understand why there are brother & sister teams: the shortage of male partners, the problems with having two sets of parents making decisions during the developmental years, the worry about a partner "moving on", etc., but I do think that it severely limits teams choices in both music and theme.


The Shibs are very much a brother-sister team that looks young - problem for ice dancing which requires a more sophisticated, "adult" look. Kerrs, Duchesnays, and others have made it work. Their skating was rarely about romantic connection and revelry. It worked for me and other fans too.

Yes, but none of the non-romantically involved ice dancers you mentioned skated during Duchesnays' era. I think the brother-sister "ick" factor was greater in earlier in ice dancing history, but not so much since the mid-90s. Were there that many successful brother-sister ice dancing teams in the 80s/early 90s? We are more used to brother-sister teams and non-involved ice dancers today than before, and many of them were very successful. That was my point.

Torvill & Dean portrayed romance well, but B&B weren't very romantic skaters.

I don't think romance is requisite in ice dancing. That's a matter of taste. If that is really a problem, they wouldn't have won all these medals.

Even married/romantically involved couples don't always convey romance well.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Sibling teams limit the use of sexual/romantic themes.

And many ballroom/OSP/OD themes had sex and romance built in.

But I don't see why any team should be expected or required to include sexual or romantic themes in their free dances. Even with the short dance, there's less need to make even the pattern portion (e.g., waltz or tango) "about" such a theme.

One thing I loved about the Duchesnays, and also the Kerrs, was the other options they came up with without defaulting to the same old same old.

Next step, same-sex free dance without sexual implications?

Agreed. Didn't they explore that already in Blades of Glory?
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
In US ice dancing particularly throughout the years, ice dancing didn't rely heavily on sexy or super romantic themes. Punsalan & Swallow were married and yet one didn't get the impression of tremendous sex appeal in their routines. Belbin & Agosto, Lang & Tchernyshev, Roca & Sur, Wynne & Witherby, Wynne & Druar, Semanick & Kravette, Sargeant & Witherby, etc., etc. were never seen as having "romantic chemistry" as much as say Virtue & Moir. Grishuck & Platov were never seen in that way either, yet they won two Olympic gold medals. So this idea that ice dancers must have this sexy or romantic chemistry just depends on what it is you, the viewer, like to see.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yes, but none of the non-romantically involved ice dancers you mentioned skated during Duchesnays' era. I think the brother-sister "ick" factor was greater in earlier in ice dancing history, but not so much since the mid-90s. Were there that many successful brother-sister ice dancing teams in the 80s/early 90s?

There were four brother-sister teams in the top 12 in 1988:

Kathrin and Christoff Beck

Isabelle and Paul Duchesnay

Antonia and Ferdinand Becherer

Karyn and Rodney Garossino

That might be a record.
 
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