Ice Dance FD - 2014 Russian Championships | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance FD - 2014 Russian Championships

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
This is a great explanation of why I/k need to break up and find better partners for each other or so Elena can retire and be morozovs wife which is her main interest.

Seriously?!?! Now you're being just as silly as the scoring for their FD. :laugh:
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Somehow however they need to get the past out of their heads and move on. They were simply sublime in Paris, so I am not quite ready to write them off. Besides in their post fd interview Nik mentioned that their skates clashed, maybe they were just going for too much.

I don't understand Nikita's and Lena's behaviour as well. They really tried to forget it as you recommend Bramweld, even sooner then it would be good to the team.
After loosing levels in short dance the team says that this is an exception. And to question why they lost points in element mark - they answered that they didn't know (Nikita had mistakes in twizzles, he stepped out in step sequence). They really don't know rules and don't know why are people loosing levels and getting minus GOE???

After free skate the couple immediately says that this mistake is an exception. And that they skated WELL after it. And that they did two good programs!!!! I don't understand why to play that everything is all right when everybody looking at video can see that there were many mistakes and program was a disaster. Why to play in such situation that everything was good?
And even mentioning that this time they were not succesful to become number 1 is even more strange.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
This is a great explanation of why I/k need to break up and find better partners for each other or so Elena can retire and be morozovs wife which is her main interest.

When Ilynikh and Morozov got together, she was 17. Now I don't think that a relationship where one person is younger and other is older is immoral and it's not my place to judge anyway. Ilynikh was above the age of consent (which is 15 in Russia) and if she wanted to enter that relationship, more power to her. She also had her mother's blessings (she said that she approves and that Ilynikh will be in good hands). But because Morozov was her coach, there was a power imbalance there and it would be easy for him to take advantage of her (not saying that is what happened but it's a possibility and that is why in some countries the age of consent is 18 if it's a student-teacher kind of relationship).

As for them breaking up, do you know of any available male partners at Ilynikh's level? I don't.
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
Medalist
Joined
May 4, 2013
The team is toxic and always fails.
Nope! They showed they have become a toxic combo.
Free Nikita from the horrible morozov illynik monster!
Someone or maybe both of them just stink and are horrible..
With the extreme disasters increasing in frequency and the team becoming a model of failed potential and lack of success it would be best if they all went their separate ways
They failed with zhulin ,they are failing with morozov , what's the real problem? They've already changed coaches.
They start the season with a virtual all level 2 SD and look like incompetent boobs at this nationals just like they did in 2013 worlds.
They may practice for a day or two and then Elena may go on a trip with morozov and be a couple and then I/k can practice again.
Elena can retire and be morozovs wife which is her main interest.
It's not as silly as them still being a team.

Seriously, Gmyers, if you didn't exist, I'd have to invent you! :)
LOL. At least your posts never fail to bring a smile back to my face.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
They aren't the second best team in Russia. This belief is wrong and is blocking better teams like s/z and s/b! It's time to end their place as second because they may practice for a day or two and then Elena may go on a trip with morozov and be a couple and then I/k can practice again.

I think Stepanova / Bukin are more mismatched than I/K
Bukin is amazing but Stepanova has bad posture and isn't as good in skating skills
and she is getting taller every year
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Wooden Valeria Zenkovo ​​/ Valery Sinitcin beat Catherine Puskas / Jonathan Ghurair - time for Jonathan to find a new partner.
Sorry for using the auto-translation of names, it's easier than looking them up, and my spelling isn't good in English.

ITA Jonathan is 187 cm tall. All these girls who have grown too tall for their short partners should consider skating with Jonathan.

Does anyone know where the protocols can be found? I surely would like to see how the tech panel/judges managed to get 99 points out of that hot mess that I&K skated.
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
I think Stepanova / Bukin are more mismatched than I/K
Bukin is amazing but Stepanova has bad posture and isn't as good in skating skills
and she is getting taller every year

Have you found another couple or pair that are mismatched, sky_fly20? So let me see, Monko/Khaliavin, Davankova/Deputat, now Stepanova/Bukin... There is definitely something wrong with the way you see the world!
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
Medalist
Joined
May 4, 2013
ITA Jonathan is 187 cm tall. All these girls who have grown too tall for their short partners should consider skating with Jonathan.

Does anyone know where the protocols can be found? I surely would like to see how the tech panel/judges managed to get 99 points out of that hot mess that I&K skated.

They made the protocols available at the Japanese Nationals as soon as all competitions were over. I guess they'll do the same here?
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Have you found another couple or pair that are mismatched, sky_fly20? So let me see, Monko/Khaliavin, Davankova/Deputat, now Stepanova/Bukin... There is definitely something wrong with the way you see the world!

where are M/K and S/B in seniors ?
only Sinitsina/Zhiganshin have done decent enough transitioning into seniors
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
When Ilynikh and Morozov got together, she was 17. Now I don't think that a relationship where one person is younger and other is older is immoral and it's not my place to judge anyway. Ilynikh was above the age of consent (which is 15 in Russia) and if she wanted to enter that relationship, more power to her. She also had her mother's blessings (she said that she approves and that Ilynikh will be in good hands). But because Morozov was her coach, there was a power imbalance there and it would be easy for him to take advantage of her (not saying that is what happened but it's a possibility and that is why in some countries the age of consent is 18 if it's a student-teacher kind of relationship).

As for them breaking up, do you know of any available male partners at Ilynikh's level? I don't.

What is Ilynikh's level? Is it a high level? It seems like a low level most of the time. It could be more consistently high with a new partner. Is she better than Katsalapov or something? Where can she find a partner at Katsalapov's level when he is good. They just need new partners and start fresh so maybe they can stop bombing or thinking they will bomb. Its been done all the time. Maybe her an Tkchenko would work. Or her and Khlavian. Something has to change. After 4 seasons of potential and constant bombing its kind of enough already! And they lie to themselves horribly! They don't know what's going on and lie to the media!
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
I am sure you are wrong, you are pointing position where free leg is aside body and skater hold that leg.

Lena position is different - on page 27 -
Difficult Variations of Basic Position Camel (examples):
Body bent forward to the spinning leg and free leg extended backward and upward up to almost
a full split (with the angle between thighs about 180 degrees);
- Lena had about 150-160 degrees

Fairness to Ilinykh, angle between her thighs are looking like 180 degrees. They can also get level with simple camel position. A lot of other teams are doing that. (For example Virtue/Moir) This is very easy to fix If something isn't right.

Position
9vi9w7.png
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Fairness to Ilinykh, angle between her thighs are looking like 180 degrees. They can also get level with simple camel position. A lot of other teams are doing that. (For example Virtue/Moir) This is very easy to fix If something isn't right.

Position
9vi9w7.png

I saw a picture, I also made some pictures….in different moments of rotation…angle looks to be changing…and camel position was not held long anough to take it into acount, it was not even one full rotation…I agree that different direction which pictures are taken from can look at problem from different views, one moment it looks like almost 180 degrees between thighs and in second moment it doesn’t look like…
But I don’t catch another thing…free leg must be straight and Lena does it, knee is turned sideways (not to the ice), how can you get almost 180 degrees between thighs when you have 150 degrees of angle between spinning leg and shin of free leg, from biological point of view it is not possible (in case that her knee is not broken, which surely is not).

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2r6zi81&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30rthd0&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2epopqf&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zqfpfc&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2myq1jp&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=34q2vlu&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=e6aicp&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=a9rewy&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33aw4k7&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lt376t&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=r2izbo&s=5

Rules should be the same for every skater…requirements are written, if you do it, you get level, if you don’t… unfortunately there are more options – 1) if you are well-known and technical specialist loves you, you get level, 2) if specialist doesn’t know you, you don’t get level, 3) if specialist doesn’t like you, you don’t get level, 4) if the Federation supports you, you get level, 5) if specialist is correct, you don’t get level.
As I understand new rules, if you do requirements in perfect way - no technical specialist can put you down (it is not true always unfortunately). In moment when you offer a possibility not do all requirements, you have to wait – 1)technical specialist is kind and take it, 2) technical specialist is a detailman and strict about the rules and don’t take it.
Why to offer a technical specialist to put you don’t and then ask why I got so low levels? Ilinykh and Katsalapov are struggling with spin every year. They are doing that position in spin for 6 years in row, already in 2008/2009 they were doing it and during that time they didn’t learn to make it in way that nobody would be able to notice some ”troubles” in requirements. Via all those years they are getting low levels one time and level 4 next time, and it changes with kindness of technical specialists. Is it so difficult for them to make perfect spin that nobody would be able to put the level down? Or they didn’t notice that lower level means that something in spin is not done properly?
It looks like quite phlegmatic attitude to rules and requirements.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Stepanova & Bukin – last two years I am watching this couple, I liked their last years short dance – how they performed it at Junior Worlds. This year they are a disappointment for me consider dance quality. Every time I see two great skaters who fight together who is better, but even once I didn’t see a dance couple. Free dance tries to hide it choosing a theme which is more about the war and fight then about dance. But still dance cathegory is about dancing for me… Looking at their technique only, they are great. They have very difficult choreography and they are able to skate it cleanly.

They have very difficult lifts in Khokhlova style, which I really don’t understand to. Small and petite women like Khokhlova or Davis, on the other hand tall girls with extremely long legs like Stepanova, Monko and Sinitsina (Domnina and Navka in past). It is obvious that lifts which work for Meryl and Jana can’t work for tall girls. It is important to find lifts which are suitable for posture a woman has – Faiella, Belbin, Domnina – they all were tall beautiful women who couldn’t do such lifts like Meryl and Jana. But they came with another kind of lifts where they could show a flexibility of their long legs and elegant postures, and it was OK. I don’t see a reason why Stepanova’s coaches try to persuade us that Stepanova is another Khokhlova. She is a real fighter that even with so tall body she is able to do such lifts and help Ivan to get herself into that difficult posititon as much as possible (Alexandra and Monko from Russian field are great example of girls who helps partner in lifts, while Ilinykh and Riazanova just waits to allow partners to do everything themselves, that is why most of their lifts looks heavy done although at least Ilinykh is much more smaller then Alexandra). But Alexandra still has more teenage body, while she become a woman, these kind of lifts suitable for Khokhlova will be impossible for her.

I don’t understand pointing to Stepanova’s weak technique – she is great technician. To judge technique – work with skates, clean edges, deep edges – I guess you must look at skates during skating also – so I did. Both Alexandra and Ivan have very good edges, clean edges and they are not loosing speed (there was just one moment in step sequence where Alexandra did turns and then were looking for Ivan, but it happens to every couple). I agree with you that 3-4 years Ivan was much better skater then Alexandra, but today they are equivalent. I also compared Alexandra’s work of skates with the best technicians at the field – Bobrova, I compared her with another great technicians – Sinitsina (who was shacky sometimes yesterday) and Monko. I also compared Alexandra’s edge work with Ilinykh, and Alexandra was easily equivalent with all of them. If anyone don’t agree, please, say me where is Alexandra’s technical or edge weakness, because I can’t see any.

What is the real highlight of all their performances are their twizzles. Yesterday also Monko, Sinitsina and Bobrova had perfect twizzles, but Stepanova and Bukin are a couple with the best twizzles not only at Russian Nats, I would count it internationally also.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Monko & Khaliavin – it was great performance and great dance yesterday. I don’t understand what is wrong with score, they deserved more points. Last two years they are getting extremely low scores looking at qualities they have, but I must admit that those silly mistakes caused by nervousness at this year and last year B-competitions is not persuading judges to give higher marks to them yet. It is funny that they are able to make mistakes at not-so-important B-competitions, while they skate perfectly and like “this is the last performance of my life” at the most important competitions for them yet – last year World Team Trophy, last year and this year Russian Nationals. The more stressful the competition is the more wonderful their dances are. But it would be nice to learn to skate cleanly at not-so-important competitions as well.

Free dance was a challenge for them. They are not funny faces like Zhiganshina & Gazsi, it was a new role Zhulin made for them. And in my opinion they showed that they can have different style and be great in it like last year in Spanish music. Zhulin wanted to show that these kids are more variable then we thought, so he showed it to us.

Sinitsina & Zhiganshin – I don’t find them juniorish this year. They are great couple together, they fit each other in technique, while Ruslan is the leader and passionate dancer, Victoria is tempting and romantic one from historical books. There were some minor shacky moment during the dance and one obvious stumble from Ruslan at the beginning (being already in role probably he hasitated to the last moment whether he will or will not run away with Victoria or not, finally he did a right decision ).

Both Monko and Sinitsina were highlights, while first dance was funny, playful and bringing good mood, second dance was full of drama and it kept me in thrill to the end.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Bobrova & Soloviev – it is interesting how bad costume can make a performance look worse then it really is, and on the contrary how good costume can improve a final look of performance. Finally the dress is OK. Dance was clean, emotional, more comfortable for the skaters (it was obvious from the first movements). If they had time to prepare this dance with this music since April/May like all other couples, maybe there would be no fullish falls at GP series. Their last years free dance at Worlds was still more touching from emotional side for me, but every next time they skate Birds, it becomes better not even technically but emotionally also.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Ilinykh & Katsalapov – I was expecting protocols to see what judges wished to see, but once I already saw it I fell from the chair…

Let’s start from something we could see already yesterday – a component mark.
Skating skills – Bobrova had 9.39, Ilinykh 9.32, Riazanova 8.46, Sinitsian 8.25, Monko 7.93, Stepanova 7.82. With fall and interruption of skating, many other mistakes and shacky moments and simple choreography with a little in between elements – Ilinykh got 9.32, just 0.07 behind Bobrova with clean skate, and in front of other skaters with clean skate or more at least more skilled skate that time.
Performance – Bobrova had 9.54, Ilinykh 9.14, Riazanova 8.64, Sinitsina 8.39, Stepanova 8.07, Monko 8.00. Again the second highest mark for performance which was a disaster in so many aspects.
Choreography – Bobrova 9.57, Ilinykh 9.50, Riazanova 8.64, Sinitsina 8.46, Stepanova 8.18, Monko 7.96. The most absurd mark. Ilinykh lost a part of choreography, both of them were struggling to the end and didn’t show all choreography in their simple beauty and still got the second highest mark. Do judges really think that with clean skate the program would deserve 10 for such simple choreography with so many stops, two footed-skating etc? Two-footed skating and stops in skating to take a rest - is it what Russian judges think that world top ice dancing choreography should look like?
Interpretation – Bobrova had 9.54, Ilinykh 9.39, Riazanova 8.54, Sinitsina 8.32, Stepanona 8.07, Monko 7.89. Again the second best mark for fall and struggling with the rest of program.
It is beyond board. With fall Bobrova’s components fell down at GP and GPF, Ilinykh with fall, interruption and other mistakes rises in components like nobody else.

But the best of it all still to coming….the protocols….
…protocols of first two couples - http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=206xz42&s=5

…while some of skaters are out of synchro in one set of twizzles they easily get minus GOE, while Lena and Nikita are out of synchro, they got from minus 1 (one judge) over 0 (four judges) to +2 (two judges).
…circular step sequence where the distance was huger then usual in some moments and out of the rhythm as usual, Lena forgetting to make her free leg straight - they got from +1 to +3 GOE
…in second step sequence where both Lena and Nikita almost stumbled in different moments, they get – they got from +1 to +2 GOE
…last two lifts looks heavily done but again – from +1 to +3 GOE (the same quality like Davis and Virtue – really? )
…by the way the third lift which is rotational, there is a moment when a Lena stays at Nikita’s shoulders which is illegal movement looking at
http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/104330/handbook-for-technical-panels-2013-final.pdf - page 87 – sitting or standing on the partner’s shoulder

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mm69h5&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=64h2bp&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2nlfk9s&s=5
it is much more obvious from practise of free dance…
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=izc5ls&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ebbuwh&s=5
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hfnmsm&s=5 ….and again if you meet a kind specialist he/she looks to be blind to it, if you meet a specialist who is correct, you can easily get minus point just because Morozov didn’t notice then Lena is sitting at Nikita’s shoulders and later one shoulder for at least a half second, isn’t it pointless?
…level 4 spin with not perfect position we already mentioned – from +2 to +3 GOE
…first combination lift was a beauty one…this is the only element where I am not against high GOE (not +3, but +1 or +2 would be OK for me).

I understand that skaters get higher marks at National Championhips then at Internationals competitions. It always happened and it will always happen. But usually skaters have to skate well to get such increase marks. In comparison with other skaters who were yesterday better, 99 point for such skate was too much also looking at the fact that it was National Championships. At least five couples did better job today and judges refused to notice that.
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
…by the way the third lift which is rotational, there is a moment when a Lena stays at Nikita’s shoulders which is illegal movement looking at
http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/104330/handbook-for-technical-panels-2013-final.pdf - page 87 – sitting or standing on the partner’s shoulder

I noticed this at the beginning of the season. They have sitting position in the first lift too. ISU has questions-answers section. I can't find this after the change of ISU website. :confused:

I find:)

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013 ISU Ice Dancing Q&A 2.pdf

In a Lift, the lifted partner moves through sitting on the lifting partner’s shoulder or back without sustaining this sitting pose. Is this considered as an Illegal Element/Movement by the Technical Panel?

No. Rule 604, paragraph 16 refers to “sitting” as a sustained pose. This clarification applies also to all other movements/poses defined as illegal, as long as the movement/pose is not sustained.​
 
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