Can Plushenko close the gap on Kovtun? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Can Plushenko close the gap on Kovtun?

MK's Winter

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
I disagree. I think Russia still has a lot to prove still since 2006. Russia's men in figure skating has been dismal to say the least since the Torino Olympics. For a proud country with glorious history and an influential State, this is unacceptable. It is not just medals they are counting, more than anything else, it's the Gold medal. Many countries favor the number of Gold medals they won per Olympics, not just the medal count and Russia is one of them. Japan also uses a very similar standard. Plushenko was supposed to be their sure bet of restoring the honor and glory after what they perceived as a major injustice suffered at the Vancouver Olympics in North America (often regarded as hostile to Russians and Mishin has vowed to never visit again which he broke with Vancouver 2010). Now, that goal seems a little out of reach.

I just feel that Plush has nothing to prove. 3 Olympic medals he is good. The state of Russian men's skating should be his problem.
 

whitebamboo

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
I don't know if Plushenko will make it to competing at Sochi, but then again, I have never known. I also don't know what the Russian Skating Federations wants to do at this point.

I only want to mention, in response to things like what TSL has been writing, that when Plushy made the statement that he would compete only in the team event at Sochi after the LP at Russian Nationals, it was in an interview immediately after his LP, and in direct response to a question that asked him, point-blank and misleadingly, to choose between the team and individual events. He said that he chooses the team event. Then in the press conference, he said the same thing again.

Russian fans, as well as Tatjana Flade, found out after talking to him that he was under a misunderstanding of the rules at the time. He thought--wrongly--that the rule modification that the Russian Skating Fed. obtained said that now it could put up one male singles skater for the team event, and another one for the individual event, without any issue of the first skater withdrawing due to injury.

After he found out the truth (Tatjana Flade wrote that he was surprised when she explained the true state of the rules for him), Plushy said that he would accept any decision from the Federation. However, if chosen, he would strive to do both the team and individual events. He never mentioned the idea of doing only the team event again after that, but talked about the physical possibility of doing both (again, if chosen).

I know Plushy's been getting quite a bit of criticism for making this statement about only doing the team event. He did not get the rules correct, and he probably was in a highly emotional state and spoke uncautiously. But I want to say that in fact, he did speak and act in good faith throughout (though some others might not have).
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I just feel that Plush has nothing to prove. 3 Olympic medals he is good. The state of Russian men's skating should be his problem.

I agree it should not be his problem if there's a missing word there.

If it was up to plushenko to win gold why would they have sent kovtun to 2013 worlds in preparation for 2014 and the future?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I disagree. I think Russia still has a lot to prove still since 2006. Russia's men in figure skating has been dismal to say the least since the Torino Olympics. For a proud country with glorious history and an influential State, this is unacceptable. It is not just medals they are counting, more than anything else, it's the Gold medal. Many countries favor the number of Gold medals they won per Olympics, not just the medal count and Russia is one of them. Japan also uses a very similar standard.

Plushenko was supposed to be their sure bet of restoring the honor and glory after what they perceived as a major injustice suffered at the Vancouver Olympics in North America (often regarded as hostile to Russians and Mishin has vowed to never visit again which he broke with Vancouver 2010).

Now, that goal seems a little out of reach.

I think the Russian men have been inconsistent, but you still have a lot of men who can land quads and even nail clean programs like Voronov and Menshov. The problem with most of the Russian men is that they lack artistry and good choreography, and Kovtun is the first one in a long time who has the total package.

I think what Russia needs to do is stop turning men into jumping machines (the days when a clean jumpfest with basic choreography can win are over, arguably ending with the results of Vancouver 2010), and the Russian men really need to develop their musicality and artistry. Which is an astounding realization given that Russia is historically known for artistic, elegant skaters.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I think the Russian men have been inconsistent, but you still have a lot of men who can land quads and even nail clean programs like Voronov and Menshov. The problem with most of the Russian men is that they lack artistry and good choreography, and Kovtun is the first one in a long time who has the total package.

I think what Russia needs to do is stop turning men into jumping machines (the days when a clean jumpfest with basic choreography can win are over, arguably ending with the results of Vancouver 2010), and the Russian men really need to develop their musicality and artistry. Which is an astounding realization given that Russia is historically known for artistic, elegant skaters.

It's not about artistry it's about cop and following the rules that get the most points. Like the best pcs always means the person was most artistic? Yeah right! Chan is not artistic! But chan has all tr and ch and PE of tr and ch but lacks artistry. He was just a nichol robot and that's not artistry that's he point system. Russia must stop believing in their old artistry being applied to skating and be cop robots.
 

spikydurian

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
It's not about artistry it's about cop and following the rules that get the most points. Like the best pcs always means the person was most artistic? Yeah right! Chan is not artistic! But chan has all tr and ch and PE of tr and ch but lacks artistry. He was just a nichol robot and that's not artistry that's he point system. Russia must stop believing in their old artistry being applied to skating and be cop robots.

Nichol robots are pretty effective winning machines. Evan, Ten, Michelle, Carolina, Daisuke, Shen & Zhao, Mao, Pang & Tong, Sasha .....
;)
 

bibi24

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
...........................

I know Plushy's been getting quite a bit of criticism for making this statement about only doing the team event. He did not get the rules correct, and he probably was in a highly emotional state and spoke uncautiously. But I want to say that in fact, he did speak and act in good faith throughout (though some others might not have).

thx so much for the thorough clarification, Plushy was never an arrogant person in my book.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
It's not about artistry it's about cop and following the rules that get the most points. Like the best pcs always means the person was most artistic? Yeah right! Chan is not artistic! But chan has all tr and ch and PE of tr and ch but lacks artistry. He was just a nichol robot and that's not artistry that's he point system. Russia must stop believing in their old artistry being applied to skating and be cop robots.

I'm tired of CSG's stubbornness in this matter. Plushy is artistry in own way in own style..The judges and commentators also thought that..even in North-Am too already in Plushy's early age. In 2006 happened something..and in N-A begun to repeat this, and many people forgot about his second scores. This is not question in Russia and Plushy is an elegant skater. Yes, Kovtun has better choreography, but that is not makes him more artistry, and his jumps aren't too beautiful. He is a juniorish skater today.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
CSG is so completely delusional he actually believes:

1. Plushenko in his prime (1999-2006) would be losing to people like Fernandez if both skated cleanly (I dont mean now, of course he would now, but not back then).
2. Tim Goebel is overall a better jumper than Plushenko.
3. Patrick Chan will be remembered as a greater artist than skaters like Lambiel, Takahashi, and Buttle.
4. Patrick Chan is not a controversial figure in the sport at all, and most skating fans Worldwide agree with his scores and results (bwahahahaha)
5. Hanyu winning the LP at the GPF is the most controversial result in skating this quadrennial, and it made no sense his PCS would naturally greatly raise from awful performances (Bompard, Skate Canada) to there, and was all due to being in Japan.
6. Plushenko in his prime even is nothing but a jumping bean, a Chinese skater clone with more political clout and consistency.

:biggrin:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I'm tired of CSG's stubbornness in this matter. Plushy is artistry in own way in own style..The judges and commentators also thought that..even in North-Am too already in Plushy's early age. In 2006 happened something..and in N-A begun to repeat this, and many people forgot about his second scores. This is not question in Russia and Plushy is an elegant skater. Yes, Kovtun has better choreography, but that is not makes him more artistry, and his jumps aren't too beautiful. He is a juniorish skater today.

I think you and gmyers missed my point. Skaters like Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are all skaters who have lacked quality choreography and have relied on jumps. If you look at Plushenko's 2006 Olympics LP it is completely devoid of any difficulty or intricacy between the jumps. And that easily wins so it's no surprise when good jumps becomes the standard (after all, it's a huge reason Gachinski won his Worlds bronze)... do all the jumps and the judges will take care of the rest... never mind transitions or spins. "Unfortunately", the new system is designed to reward all around skaters, as well as intricate programs. This mentality of doing the jumps is enough to win might have worked under 6.0, but not now. It's so ironic that Chan is accused of being a CoP robot when Plushenko's skates in 2006, 2010, and now 2013/2014 again, couldn't have been any more robotic and devoid of choreography. Like, compare Plu's 2012 Euro LP to this year's. Everyone on here acknowledged his SP at Nationals was well-jumped but the rest of the program was nothing. It's no surprise Kovtun beat him - it is, however, a surprise that people are calling Kovtun a junior when he's the one skating the most ambitious programs of all the Russian men. And even if Kovtun fell on every jump, at least there is substance to his programs, unlike Plushenko's SP/LP this year. As we saw with Plushenko's FS, without the jumps he has no program to fall back on - this Best of Plushenko should be called the Best Music Cuts Of Plushenko's Past Programs Pieced Together because he doesn't even interpret each piece of music as adequate as he used to. Even his own fans have to agree that it's terrible in comparison to his Euro 2012 programs.

Pangtongfan, you think Plushenko in his prime was 1999-2006 but that was a "prime" because he was the most consistent jumper by far. But to me, his prime was 2012 when his jumps weren't at their prime but the overall level of skating and difficulty of programs was actually formidable. He's always had consistency, presence, musicality but the actual aspects of figure skating beyond the elements were not there. If Plushenko was a skater who started out when the IJS was formed he would be a very different skater, skating much better programs.

And yes, I do believe Goebel is in some respects a better jumper than Plushenko. Plushenko has never landed 3 quads in a program because he has only been capable of doing 1 quad in competition, and Goebel back in the day actually had transitions going into his jumps, balances his jumps much better throughout a program, including quads in both halves of a program. In terms of consistency and quality of his 3A/4T Plushenko is a better jumper.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
I think you and gmyers missed my point. Skaters like Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are all skaters who have lacked quality choreography and have relied on jumps. If you look at Plushenko's 2006 Olympics LP it is completely devoid of any difficulty or intricacy between the jumps. And that easily wins so it's no surprise when good jumps becomes the standard (after all, it's a huge reason Gachinski won his Worlds bronze)... do all the jumps and the judges will take care of the rest... never mind transitions or spins. "Unfortunately", the new system is designed to reward all around skaters, as well as intricate programs. This mentality of doing the jumps is enough to win might have worked under 6.0, but not now. It's so ironic that Chan is accused of being a CoP robot when Plushenko's skates in 2006, 2010, and now 2013/2014 again, couldn't have been any more robotic and devoid of choreography. Like, compare Plu's 2012 Euro LP to this year's. Everyone on here acknowledged his SP at Nationals was well-jumped but the rest of the program was nothing. It's no surprise Kovtun beat him - it is, however, a surprise that people are calling Kovtun a junior when he's the one skating the most ambitious programs of all the Russian men. And even if Kovtun fell on every jump, at least there is substance to his programs, unlike Plushenko's SP/LP this year. As we saw with Plushenko's FS, without the jumps he has no program to fall back on - this Best of Plushenko should be called the Best Music Cuts Of Plushenko's Past Programs Pieced Together because he doesn't even interpret each piece of music as adequate as he used to. Even his own fans have to agree that it's terrible in comparison to his Euro 2012 programs.

Pangtongfan, you think Plushenko in his prime was 1999-2006 but that was a "prime" because he was the most consistent jumper by far. But to me, his prime was 2012 when his jumps weren't at their prime but the overall level of skating and difficulty of programs was actually formidable. He's always had consistency, presence, musicality but the actual aspects of figure skating beyond the elements were not there. If Plushenko was a skater who started out when the IJS was formed he would be a very different skater, skating much better programs.

And yes, I do believe Goebel is in some respects a better jumper than Plushenko. Plushenko has never landed 3 quads in a program because he has only been capable of doing 1 quad in competition, and Goebel back in the day actually had transitions going into his jumps, balances his jumps much better throughout a program, including quads in both halves of a program. In terms of consistency and quality of his 3A/4T Plushenko is a better jumper.

Plushy 18y.o 2001 he won ECH and WCH under the 6.0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aQdGyJQ1cU or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw

Kovtun 18.yo. under the COP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR9mSSHfb9Q

totally different, different rules etc. but look at Plushy quality moves and presentation..Kovtun is juniorish today, but will be very good. I don't like Plushy's LP,but we can't see when it is totally ready and perfect...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Plushy 18y.o 2001 he won ECH and WCH under the 6.0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aQdGyJQ1cU or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw

Kovtun 18.yo. under the COP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR9mSSHfb9Q

totally different, different rules etc. but look at Plushy quality moves and presentation..Kovtun is juniorish today, but will be very good. I don't like Plushy's LP,but we can't see when it is totally ready and perfect...

That Euro 2001 performance was certainly a better performance artistically than Kovtun but it's also artistically better than a lot of Plushenko's later work, particularly after the IJS got into full swing. Once Yagudin was out nobody could match his consistency in jumping so he essentially ditched the in betweens and went for clean jump fests because they would win. And why invest effort into program content if you can win without the extra work?

You can even see how much better he actually carried artistry throughout his Euro 2001 program. I mean look at the beginning, he doesn't reel off four jumping passes in a row, there's actual choreography at least artistically (still a lot of two footed skating and breaks... And of course I can't stand the hip thrusts and shoulder shimmying). But you can tell there's more of an effort when it comes to structure. By 2006 he didn't even need a program to win the Olympics; a clean skate would automatically translate to high PCS scores... and the rest of the field provided no challenge technically. It was only by 2010 that the judges finally started crediting skaters with better choreography (evidenced by his 5th best CH in Van 2010 FS) even if they didn't skate as cleanly.

Come Euros 2012 he had seemingly learnt his lesson from Vancouver and skated much better choreographed programs with transitions and balanced layout, but then come Nationals 2014 he regressed back to his 2006 jump fest. It's laughable that his SP and LP got better choreography and transitions scores than Kovtun, no matter how junior ish Kovtun may seem to you.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
That Euro 2001 performance was certainly a better performance artistically than Kovtun but it's also artistically better than a lot of Plushenko's later work, particularly after the IJS got into full swing. Once Yagudin was out nobody could match his consistency in jumping so he essentially ditched the in betweens and went for clean jump fests because they would win. And why invest effort into program content if you can win without the extra work?

You can even see how much better he actually carried artistry throughout his Euro 2001 program. I mean look at the beginning, he doesn't reel off four jumping passes in a row, there's actual choreography at least artistically (still a lot of two footed skating and breaks... And of course I can't stand the hip thrusts and shoulder shimmying). But you can tell there's more of an effort when it comes to structure. By 2006 he didn't even need a program to win the Olympics; a clean skate would automatically translate to high PCS scores... and the rest of the field provided no challenge technically. It was only by 2010 that the judges finally started crediting skaters with better choreography (evidenced by his 5th best CH in Van 2010 FS) even if they didn't skate as cleanly.

Come Euros 2012 he had seemingly learnt his lesson from Vancouver and skated much better choreographed programs with transitions and balanced layout, but then come Nationals 2014 he regressed back to his 2006 jump fest. It's laughable that his SP and LP got better choreography and transitions scores than Kovtun, no matter how junior ish Kovtun may seem to you.

No,no CSG! Don't you remember Plushy's Nijinsky program? That is one of the best male programs ever..pure magic, perfection..good choreography etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4
and St .Peterburg 300, Moonlight Sonata, Tango and Flamenco.. ..he collected many 6.0s with them, but I know you understand the FS more than the judges..
and I'm tired of your " two footed skating"...that was no problem in that time..but if you wan to see long one footed skating look at this..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ooGFKnTMYY incredible entertaning.
 

supsu

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 30, 2013
I completely agree with what your saying about Plu.

That Euro 2001 performance was certainly a better performance artistically than Kovtun but it's also artistically better than a lot of Plushenko's later work, particularly after the IJS got into full swing. Once Yagudin was out nobody could match his consistency in jumping so he essentially ditched the in betweens and went for clean jump fests because they would win. And why invest effort into program content if you can win without the extra work?

You can even see how much better he actually carried artistry throughout his Euro 2001 program. I mean look at the beginning, he doesn't reel off four jumping passes in a row, there's actual choreography at least artistically (still a lot of two footed skating and breaks... And of course I can't stand the hip thrusts and shoulder shimmying). But you can tell there's more of an effort when it comes to structure. By 2006 he didn't even need a program to win the Olympics; a clean skate would automatically translate to high PCS scores... and the rest of the field provided no challenge technically. It was only by 2010 that the judges finally started crediting skaters with better choreography (evidenced by his 5th best CH in Van 2010 FS) even if they didn't skate as cleanly.

Come Euros 2012 he had seemingly learnt his lesson from Vancouver and skated much better choreographed programs with transitions and balanced layout, but then come Nationals 2014 he regressed back to his 2006 jump fest. It's laughable that his SP and LP got better choreography and transitions scores than Kovtun, no matter how junior ish Kovtun may seem to you.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Nijinsky was arguably his best long program (maybe Carmen) before Euro 2012 in terms of intricacy of the actual program however there are a ton of breaks in that program. His first 3 jumping passes are literally a cycle of stroking around the ice, then jump, then rest (with either a two foot glide or coming to a stop). Artistically I get why he does that but from a skating standpoint it's bad choreo because breaks - especially 3 in a row - is a no-no. Two-footed skating/breaks/unbalanced programs have always been considered a problem. Plushenko was the overwhelming favourite, he went clean in that program, had nice performance/artistry, and was the last to skate in a rather ho-hum competition (I mean Klimkin was 2nd), and it was in Russia, so the string of 6.0's was hardly unexpected even if the program itself wasn't the most intricate.

Many people look for different things in a skater... I fundamentally look at the elements, skating skills, and intricacy of the program first and expressiveness and theatrics is somewhat secondary to that because good skating is fundamental.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
CanadianSkaterGuy;813309 And yes said:
because he has only been capable of doing 1 quad in competition[/B], and Goebel back in the day actually had transitions going into his jumps, balances his jumps much better throughout a program, including quads in both halves of a program. In terms of consistency and quality of his 3A/4T Plushenko is a better jumper.

Em, Plushenko has done multiple times two quads in one Lp program in Goebel days, and the incredibles 4-3-2, 4-3-3 (less times that). After Yagudin, the norm was (even at recent Russian Nationals) two quads per competition (1 sp and 1 lp). In 2006 Olys Lp he skated an auto mode, I believe he wanted this gold medal too much to blow it again, but i ve seen Godfather skated great in earliers competitions.
 
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