2014 Canadian Nationals Senior Dance FD | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2014 Canadian Nationals Senior Dance FD

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Well after viewing Davis and White and Virtue and Moir I can say this. Technicall D and W might be better but affecting TES woudl be line and that favours imho V and M. I still find V and M better SS and Pcs wise but the judges lightly favor D and W. D and W are destined for OGM but I have to say both teams are a bit of a disapointment. Maybe it is COP but they just don't have the charisma, the divaness, the je ne sais quoi (forget techincal) of teams in the past. Maybe it is COP but both their programs are forgetable. If I had to pick one as being better I would clearly see V and M. They do more magic. D and W is well done but rather eh, whatever. I mean they are good but not special. I hope even if tes go to CD and W the judges will open up the purse to V and M for pcs.
 

emdee

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I like P/I's programs this year and think they do a nice job. The SD is quite good. The FD? It's a nice little program, skated nicely, and utterly forgettable about 12 minutes after seeing it. And I am sure that is what is going to happen at the Olympics. They'll have a nice skate, and no one except their families and fans will remember it.

On the other hand, I bet I will remember the Hitchcock program 12 years from now.

P/I have beautiful lines but I found their SD underwhelming and even soulless. It was very run of the mill. The Hitchcock was a special program and exquisitely skated.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I used to find P/I boring but I went to the dance final in person and they're actually much better live than on tv. I enjoyed them more than G/P this time. I find V/M's FD slightly boring.. I think D/W will take Olympic gold this time. When you think of what an Olympic program should be like, D/W's better fits the bill.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Obviously , I find evidence of "soul" in very different places than emdee .. but there's no use going back and forth about P/I vs. G/P , it's plain that people's artistic preferences are coming into play, and that's not likely to be resolved , here.

What I want to raise is the program of P/O , which vaulted them from a fair 8th place in the SD to a fair 5th place in the FD ( even with a deduction for a long lift)... This was the choreographic wonder of the competition , for me. ( Not my favourite choreo, but one of the ones that best served the skaters. Kudos to D&L, I assume ?)

Here was a non-original program choice greatly elevated by creativity. It used the skaters abilities to maximum effect, was filled with innovative moves, was well executed and seamless ..nothing stood out as a noticeable "gotcha" moment, it was all of one piece.

R/H and O/W were very close . A large part of the difference may come down to the twizzles ( O/W lv.4 , R/H lv.3 ) Otherwise ,their levels were pretty equal, with O/W receiving some higher GOEs . These are the 2 couples whose placements could be most reasonably debated ,IMO..but I certainly don't think it has a thing to do with race... Personally, I didn't think the music choices for either couple did them any favours . And you could say O/W's program was more generic, generally ( and not far removed from last year's) .. but then R/H's program , though new , was much like a number of things they've done in the past , so it also did seem a bit "more of the same".

The good news is , both teams will get other assignments ( maybe even this year?) and neither will be left out in the cold come next year's GP. With their scores being so close I doubt either one will come in for favouritism on the part of SC.
 

MeaganSkater

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
As much as my heart broke for Piper & Paul they knew coming into this season that they may not get to go to the Olympics because of the citizenship issue. So I can see them sticking around for 2018.

I love their creativity, personality & know they have what it takes but they still seem rough around the edges. They need to go back and work on the fundamentals; their lines, holds, skating skills.

They are amazing people and I wish we could send everyone!! But I was always pulling for Alexandra/Mitch because of their quality of elements. Yes their programs are not nearly as entertaining or memorable for the audience but as long as the judges get the concept that's all that matters.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
The problem I have with Voir's long program is that it doesn't really GO anywhere. Yes, it is exquisitely skated (twizzle bobble notwithstanding), but it's a gauzy mood piece. Given that the stated intent of the piece is to portray Voir's long relationship, I find a real lack of tension or conflict, though there certainly is a great deal of signified 'romance.' So in essence, it feels sentimental to me. But hey, let the good times roll...

ETA: If someone has a link for the Nationals performance of Hitchcock, can you please post the link? I'd love to see it again. I really think it's such a gem of a program. Thanks!
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
g/p was our one chance to see something truly spectacular. hopefully this makes them really dig deep for the next quad. both d/w and v/m sort of seemed flat to me this weekend. i don't catch myself wanting to watch their programs over and over this year. the two teams that i really like this year, when they're on are W/P and I/K (i've watched both their programs too many times to count). i really hope they light it up, because we're not going to see H/D and we may not get to see c/p. we will see c/l but their programs just seem so trite this year. b/s just seem so robotic and by the numbers this year. why are olympic programs so challenging to create? oh brother....
 

Mia_

Rinkside
Joined
May 15, 2010
V/M's FD starts off quiet and soft but builds tension with the tempo and key changes and the transitions are indicative of the program building as the piece goes on. I like this version better, they have added some percussive beats in the last half building all the way to the end. More powerful and regal feel. I'm beginning to hear and feel the softness, fragility, tension, chaos and triumph all in this program.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Obviously , I find evidence of "soul" in very different places than emdee .. but there's no use going back and forth about P/I vs. G/P , it's plain that people's artistic preferences are coming into play, and that's not likely to be resolved , here.

What I want to raise is the program of P/O , which vaulted them from a fair 8th place in the SD to a fair 5th place in the FD ( even with a deduction for a long lift)... This was the choreographic wonder of the competition , for me. ( Not my favourite choreo, but one of the ones that best served the skaters. Kudos to D&L, I assume ?)

Here was a non-original program choice greatly elevated by creativity. It used the skaters abilities to maximum effect, was filled with innovative moves, was well executed and seamless ..nothing stood out as a noticeable "gotcha" moment, it was all of one piece.

R/H and O/W were very close . A large part of the difference may come down to the twizzles ( O/W lv.4 , R/H lv.3 ) Otherwise ,their levels were pretty equal, with O/W receiving some higher GOEs . These are the 2 couples whose placements could be most reasonably debated ,IMO..but I certainly don't think it has a thing to do with race... Personally, I didn't think the music choices for either couple did them any favours . And you could say O/W's program was more generic, generally ( and not far removed from last year's) .. but then R/H's program , though new , was much like a number of things they've done in the past , so it also did seem a bit "more of the same".

The good news is , both teams will get other assignments ( maybe even this year?) and neither will be left out in the cold come next year's GP. With their scores being so close I doubt either one will come in for favouritism on the part of SC.

Absolutely agree with all of this.

V/M were sublime. W/P get better and better every time I see them. I wasn't really fond of their music this year at the beginning. I was hoping I guess for a tango without the words. But it really has grown on me, and it certainly suits their dramatic side. Seeing them in person finally really allowed me to see the power of it. They were really, really good.

As for P/I vs G/P, it really wasn't a contest. I went away from the night feeling really good about the state of ice dance.....that we are back to having dance in ice dance. While G/P are entertaining, they are missing the fundamentals. If they ever bother to go back to really work on those, then add the creativity in the program, then they will be a force to contend with. Until then, I just don't think they are matched in skills, lines, edges, etc.

I don't know what to think about R/H. I really think they have better skills and lines and dance than O/W. But this FD was a bit of a mess. And I don't think it showed growth and range. It was like going back to Junior. I think the program choice was an error in judgement.

For O/W I don't see the future here. I think both BC teams need to completely re-think their strategy for programs, music and choreography. Next to P/O, and the rest of the top teams, they looked like kindergarten. I'd love to see what a David Wilson or Jeff Buttle would do with E/P. They have the goods, but they need the right vehicle, and they need to really be able to have more maturity in expression. It's not just about going fast. It's about the nuances of the music. It's not just the notes, but the spaces between the notes that matter. I think the problem is a lot deeper with O/W. I don't see the musicality at all. They have great training. But to me it doesn't really look like good ice dance...just ice dance by numbers.

I was SO happy to see a solid free dance from P/O. It was a really well done program from start to finish, and I was really pleased to see this get rewarded. So many times they have struggled with nerves and consistency. Hopefully they will now have some more confidence going into next season.

An honourable mention definitely goes to Cyr/Brisebois. They had a very strong Senior debut in a very strong field. I'm looking forward to see what they do next season.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
I cannot believe Gilles/Poirer were 4th on the PCS in the FD. Their "Hitchock" FD is an absolutely exceptional program. It has a very strong concept, varied and interesting choreography and transitions and tons of character. It's the best FD this season, hands down IMO. I can understand Paul/Islam possibly scoring higher on SS (given Poirer's SS are exceptional but Gilles' are way behind) but no way did they deserve to come ahead on any other PCS.

Yeah, it seems like Paul & Islam got in with the judges this season. Maybe there's some politics behind it (the move to Detroit may have impressed the judges?). Who knows. But I found it odd that Paul Poirier has been on the Senior Dance podium for the last 5 years in a row, and all of a sudden he's taken off it this year. G&P were on the podium the last 2 years and have always beaten P&I in the past, so how come P&I placed ahead of them this time? I could understand if G&P had fallen down etc., but they were clean in both programs.

Unfortunately it may be that the judges wanted a boring, traditional ice dance, and while I don't want to bash P&I, I don't think people will remember their program and don't think that they will make much impact with the general public. I also just think G&P have so much more engaging personalities and maybe this is a bit shallow, but I also think they look more attractive together.

Poirier also would have given the Canadian Ice Dance team the benefit of someone with prior Olympic experience, so now only Tessa & Scott have any prior experience at the Olympics among the Canadian dance contingent.

Finally, the absence of Poirier means Canada's figure skating team loses a valuable Francophone voice, and does not have a single French speaker on its Ice Dance team.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Yeah, it seems like Paul & Islam got in with the judges this season. Maybe there's some politics behind it (the move to Detroit may have impressed the judges?). Who knows. But I found it odd that Paul Poirier has been on the Senior Dance podium for the last 5 years in a row, and all of a sudden he's taken off it this year. G&P were on the podium the last 2 years and have always beaten P&I in the past, so how come P&I placed ahead of them this time? I could understand if G&P had fallen down etc., but they were clean in both programs.

Unfortunately it may be that the judges wanted a boring, traditional ice dance, and while I don't want to bash P&I, I don't think people will remember their program and don't think that they will make much impact with the general public. I also just think G&P have so much more engaging personalities and maybe this is a bit shallow, but I also think they look more attractive together.

Poirier also would have given the Canadian Ice Dance team the benefit of someone with prior Olympic experience, so now only Tessa & Scott have any prior experience at the Olympics among the Canadian dance contingent.

Finally, the absence of Poirier means Canada's figure skating team loses a valuable Francophone voice, and does not have a single French speaker on its Ice Dance team.

You made some fair points. The Bronze medal in Dance is the only decision that I disagreed with among the 17 Olympians. Not wanting to get into the specifics, I would say that I concur with many of your points.

As for the lack of a Francophone voice, funny enough, that void was filled by Patrick Chan. At the press conference announcing Canada's FS Olympic team, it was Patrick who was tasked to give the speech in French. He did a fairly good job. At the end of the day, the Team's selection cannot be based off noble goals or intentions such as diversity. It should always be 100% based off meritocracy even though we know this isn't always true - just human nature. Among the rest of the Canadian team, Duhamel and Radford technically represent Quebec even though both are originally from Ontario. Duhamel is in fact a Francophone from Ontario and her French is excellent. Surprisingly though somewhat, Eric Radford's French is also very good, about as good as Patrick Chan. I haven't got the chance to ask Eric about it, can be a little awkward if it came out wrong but with those 2 and Patrick, Team Canada overall doesn't lack voice for the Francophone aspect at all. Incidentally, I never heard Paul Poirier spoken French before. Even back when he was with Vanessa Crone, it's always English - not sure if he even speaks it.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
You made some fair points. The Bronze medal in Dance is the only decision that I disagreed with among the 17 Olympians. Not wanting to get into the specifics, I would say that I concur with many of your points.

As for the lack of a Francophone voice, funny enough, that void was filled by Patrick Chan. At the press conference announcing Canada's FS Olympic team, it was Patrick who was tasked to give the speech in French. He did a fairly good job. At the end of the day, the Team's selection cannot be based off noble goals or intentions such as diversity. It should always be 100% based off meritocracy even though we know this isn't always true - just human nature. Among the rest of the Canadian team, Duhamel and Radford technically represent Quebec even though both are originally from Ontario. Duhamel is in fact a Francophone from Ontario and her French is excellent. Surprisingly though somewhat, Eric Radford's French is also very good, about as good as Patrick Chan. I haven't got the chance to ask Eric about it, can be a little awkward if it came out wrong but with those 2 and Patrick, Team Canada overall doesn't lack voice for the Francophone aspect at all. Incidentally, I never heard Paul Poirier spoken French before. Even back when he was with Vanessa Crone, it's always English - not sure if he even speaks it.

Of course Paul Poirier speaks French! :) He is a Francophone and went to French high school in Toronto (with Patrick Chan) . Yes, Patrick Chan is very good in French - almost as good as Paul Poirier. But he is not a Francophone. Chan's parents wanted him to learn both of Canada's official languages of English and French along with Chinese, which is very admirable!

Included here is a long French interview Poirier did in 2011 when he was still with Vanessa Crone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYWp9JqOd2Y
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
I thought Paul was studying linguistics ? If so , I'd be surprised if he didn't speak French.

But honestly, Ryan O.. none of your laundry list has anything to do with why people are ( or should be ) given a spot on the Olympic team.

Much of what you say is personal preference, including people's personalities and attractiveness ( or lack of same).

I don't think you should raise the last 2 years in particular. Yes, G/P placed ahead of P/I 1) in the year P/I were suffering from injury all through the competitive season and 2) last year when P/I had a disastrous fall in the FD... Those are the breaks .. but everyone who was following both teams should have known that healthy and without a fall , P/I should be competitive with G/P...and so should have known all bets should be off this year.. ( The same way most people would agree that G/P might have placed a bit higher at Worlds without their fall )... but at the same time, in both years previous to this , G/P were outrageously overmarked so as to put them really undeservedly close to both W/P and V/M... That was what people complained most about , not their marks compared to P/I's . Those marks tell you nothing about how they would or should have compared to P/I without extenuating circumstances... This competition was fair , and thankfully, no team was done any favours , or any slights . P/I earned their finish in the SD, FD and overall placement.

They know they'll have to work to try to keep it. They will have no illusions about the depth and strength of their competition... just as G/P knew they had to worry about P/I here. They knew P/I had been skating very well.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
You're right that the final factors I listed (eg. attractiveness as a couple, Paul being a Francophone) were not reasons why G&P should be on the Olympic team. I just said those were additional reasons it was a loss not to have them on the team (particularly Poirier).

The reasons why I said G&P should have been on the podium were listed in the first part of my response where I compared the actual reasons and the programs the teams skated and their originality, choreography, techniques and previous rankings.

And yes, Paul is doing a degree in Linguistics. He grew up speaking 3 languages - English, French & Spanish (from his mother's side - she teaches Spanish in Toronto). WallyLutz didn't know Poirier was a Francophone so I included a French interview for those who want to see him speak French. :) It's a very extensive interview from 2011 with Giselle Quenneville of French TVO - she is used to interviewing the politicians in Ontario so she asks challenging questions and she interviewed Poirier because she does a program on Franco-Ontarians. Poirier has written about his Francophone background on his website, and both he and Patrick Chan have received awards from Etienne-Brulé school for promoting the French language in Canadian sports. Here is an article on Poirier & Chan from 2011:

http://www.csviamonde.ca/csviamonde/index.php?q=node/1819

One of the reasons people sometimes don't see Paul speaking French is because both his partners (Crone & Gilles) as well as his coach (Carol Lane) have all been Anglophones and so he speaks with them in English since they don't speak French.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Ryan O... I know you're a great fan of Paul Poirier and that's fine with me .There's a lot to admire about Paul.

Even in the first part of your post, I don't agree with your reasons.( I mean I don't think some of them should be reasons ) ...I like G/P's Hitchcock program much better that the programs they've had in the past. The content is greater this year, IMO.... I just don't see it as the work of genius that some would like to proclaim it to be. Though entertaining, and built on an original concept , for my taste , it's still a bit contrived in places... I certainly don't think that the program, itself, is a standout qualifier for a spot on the Olympic team.

OTOH, I don't find P/I's program boring at all. I find it filled with interesting movements , good speed , beautiful postions, lovely skating ,all performed to interesting music ... I don't object to some programs having a strong narrative , but it's not necessary to me . If the skating is good I can enjoy programs with strong narrative , subtle narrative , or none at all ...and I know many would agree with me . But again, that's a matter of preference.

Here's the thing.. Paul was not taken off the podium.. Paul , on his own, cannot earn a place on the ice dance podium , no matter what he skates to.... Every year he and his partner have to ( or should have to ) try to earn or keep a spot on the podium anew. This year, they didn't do it . For me , that was obvious in the skating of the two couples..Apparently , it was to the judges , too.... Next year , who knows ?
 

Alvyne

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Country
Canada
Paul does speak French, but I think Patrick speaks it better, more fluently. I had no idea Meagan and Eric spoke French too. When I have seen them interviewed on French Canadian tv, it was always in English, with the inverviewer translating afterwards.

As for the debate for third place, I too think the placement was correct. Even though I loved the innovative choreaography of G/P's program, and have found P/I a little boring in the past, their free dance this year (P/I) definitely made me a fan and deserved third place.
 
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
I have been a huge fan of piper and Paul since they started together, and I think they skated great here. Their program was truly unique but at this competition I was really blown away with the beautiful fluid movements of Alex and Mitch. They also appeared to have more speed and flow as well. Weaver/Poje should have won in my opinion, just fabulous. Virtue and moors program was just same old stuff again.
 
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Forgot to mention that I wish they had televised the whole event instead of just the top flight. I wasn't very impressed with orford and Williams program this year.
 

wasabi

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Actually, he grew up speaking primarily English. He and his brothers were sent to French school to have a more comprehensive exposure to French. I think Paul was the only one that went to French high school and he started learning Spanish at the end of school and continued with studies in University.

Not taking away, just saying there are quite a few athletes that are trilingual, and many that speak two languages fluently.

Regarding G/P being taken off the podium: P/I skate was superior in edges, speed, fluidity and also had an absolutely stunning, difficult lift, and to my view, P/I have a great connection and chemistry on the ice which G/P do not even if they "have fun skating together". Seriously, interesting music does not make for stupendous choreography, and if it did, it is not a guarantee for a podium finish. Choreography is one component of many. P/I more than earned the spot.

G/P were correctly scored. Any sense of entitlement to a podium/olympic spot has more to do with ridiculously over marked performances the first two Nationals.
 
Top