Newsweek article: 'The Frozen Closet' | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Newsweek article: 'The Frozen Closet'

Matilda

Medalist
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
As you yourself has pointed out, there is a perceived gender normalcy in a society, any society. Dressing out of this gender normalcy, it will be seen as cross dressing. Don't ask why. That is the way things are. Hanyu's this year LP costume looks girly while Jason Brown's river dance costume looks not.

I also pointed out that these norms are not fixed--they change as the society changes. The society is changing and becoming more accepting of more ambiguous gender expressions. My point was that figure skating could be spearheading the inevitable change instead of holding on to norms that are in fact much more conservative (hence the 50's) than those of the current society at large.

Also, I don't think an "effeminate" costume on a man is problematic at all. I think Yuzuru's costume works for the program. More importantly, however, he likes the costume, and that's what really matters.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Well, since he's the one wearing it, I think it might matter.... you know, just a tad. ;)

Note: No, personally, I don't care for it. Not because of its being "effeminate", but because I find the ruffles distracting. I'm actually not sure if many women would want to wear it, as it would magically remove any figure one might happen to have... But I don't really expect him to consult my preferences when choosing his costumes. ;)
 

Hyena

Tous les whiskys
Medalist
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
I agree, but fans are not at fault if they have personal preferences either. When your break the mold you have to be willing to accept that some people will love it and some people will hate it. People who don't like watching feminine male programs aren't "haters". Boitano proved you can be gay but also have a powerful masculine presence on the ice.

I don't at all consider you a hater for posting this. I've found myself having a similar reaction before. That being said, I think it's worthwhile to be curious about WHY we prefer men to have a powerful masculine presence. Is it a genuine preference for more powerful performances that crosses gender lines, or is our reaction due to the expectations we've been socialized to have for how men should "be"? Just something for us all to think about.
 

BusyMom

Medalist
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
The Japanese society has been decorated with heterosexuality for a long time. Modern teenagers are not look at heterosexuality as homosexuality. Japanese culture can be very colorful but at the same time confusing. Every Asians post-X Japan(Rock band with more makeup than Marilyn Manson) era have a more understanding of the idea. Yuzuru, likes any Japanese skaters, wouldn't mind any criticism from the skater fans. They usually are more focus on their goal. Look at Mao with her 3A obsessions, those are nothing to do with OGM, Yuna, or the newcomers but her demon to kill.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I don't at all consider you a hater for posting this. I've found myself having a similar reaction before. That being said, I think it's worthwhile to be curious about WHY we prefer men to have a powerful masculine presence. Is it a genuine preference for more powerful performances that crosses gender lines, or is our reaction due to the expectations we've been socialized to have for how men should "be"? Just something for us all to think about.

I do wonder that as well, especially since I do have the personal bias as far as enjoyment of the programs is concerned. I think it's because I appreciate that men and women's skating are different events that are distinguished not only by what is in between the competitors legs but also the different skill sets that the athletes bring as a result of their gender. I am in awe of great women's spins that exhibit flexibility and speed, and the men do not match the best women here. I also enjoy(ed) great spiral sequences when they were part of the programs, and even the flexible men look more awkward (to me) than women doing the same flexibility moves. For the men, I like seeing the speed and intricacy in the way they move across the ice, as well as the very difficult jumps. So I suppose maybe the reason I like the masculinity in men's skating is because it enhances the power moves (speed and jumps) that make men's skating what it is.
 

louisa05

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
I don't at all consider you a hater for posting this. I've found myself having a similar reaction before. That being said, I think it's worthwhile to be curious about WHY we prefer men to have a powerful masculine presence. Is it a genuine preference for more powerful performances that crosses gender lines, or is our reaction due to the expectations we've been socialized to have for how men should "be"? Just something for us all to think about.

But why is anything too feminine taken to task so often among skating fans? Female skaters who skate to music perceived as feminine, wear their hair certain ways, wear costumes perceived as too feminine are often derided as "pretty princesses" or worse--both words spelled with "w"s. Why can we not accept the women for who they are as well? In the case of Gracie Gold, her off ice persona comes off as pretty girly-girl. Perhaps her look on ice is what she prefers. Why is that not okay?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think it's worthwhile to be curious about WHY we prefer men to have a powerful masculine presence. Is it a genuine preference for more powerful performances that crosses gender lines, or is our reaction due to the expectations we've been socialized to have for how men should "be"? Just something for us all to think about.

Among skating fandom, there are likely to be individuals who like, maybe in some cases prefer, men to show traditionally feminine characteristics, or prefer blurred lines and mixed gender messages in the way skaters present themselves.

Or (raising my hand) enjoy both skaters who are extemely butch and others who are extremely femme as well as any mix in between, regardless of biological sex -- as long as they're good skaters and commit themselves to something interesting on the ice, traditional or revolutionary or otherwise.

Other fans may prefer strict adherence to gender norms. And non-fans will often fall into the strict norms category, since men crossing gender lines seems to be a major reason for non-fans to dislike men's skating in particular.

But I don't think we can say "We" and mean everyone at Goldenskate. We all love skating or we wouldn't be here. But we don't all have the same preferences. Some of us are straight, some of us are gay, some of us would not choose one of those two words to identify ourselves. Some of us are male, some of us are female. Some of us have conservative attitudes toward gender, others love gender-bending. Some of us love classical styles, others prefer pop culture or postmodernism. Some are mostly interested in skating for the artistic side, some for the athletic side, others for both.

So we can each analyze our own responses and probably others will find some resonance there. We can guess/speculate about other reasons that people who feel differently might feel the way they do -- especially opinions that seem to be in the majority. But I don't think we can generalize our own experience to assume that everyone feels the same way.

I'm not sure if you were doing that, Hyena. By "we" did you mean only yourself and drivingmissdaisy, since you had identified a point of agreement between you? It was the "Just something for us all to think about" that made me wonder if you meant that I and everyone else reading this thread feels exactly the same.
 

volk

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
So there are no closeted lesbian skaters? That's what the article seems to imply.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
But why is anything too feminine taken to task so often among skating fans? Female skaters who skate to music perceived as feminine, wear their hair certain ways, wear costumes perceived as too feminine are often derided as "pretty princesses" or worse--both words spelled with "w"s. Why can we not accept the women for who they are as well? In the case of Gracie Gold, her off ice persona comes off as pretty girly-girl. Perhaps her look on ice is what she prefers. Why is that not okay?

Yes, I get peeved also when I hear someone dismiss a skater as a "pwetty pwincess," as if skating in a delicate way takes less training, strength, or dedication than doing triple axels. Skaters have to contend with enough rules. They should be able to express themselves on the ice as they see fit.

I have a recollection of reading that there is an aspect of Japanese culture that values androgyny. I can't verify this right now, and I hope someone here can comment on it more knowledgeably than I. I'm just bringing it up to make the point that a cultural norm in one country might not be the same as it is in another.

This may or may not be a related concept, but I know that kabuki is still a premier art form in Japan, and one tradition is that certain actors specialize in playing the female roles. One of the greatest Kabuki actors of modern times, Bandō Tamasaburō V, is such a specialist. This is not at all equivalent to the Western concept of the drag queen or anything campy; it's part one of the most elevated art forms in Japan. Significantly, this gender tradition has continued centuries past the equivalent Western practice of having boys play girls' roles onstage (notably in Shakespeare's time and in the opera). So it must be something that Japanese culture is at home with. If this is true, it gives Japanese men an extra expressive latitude, I'd think.
 

louisa05

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Yes, I get peeved also when I hear someone dismiss a skater as a "pwetty pwincess," as if skating in a delicate way takes less training, strength, or dedication than doing triple axels. Skaters have to contend with enough rules. They should be able to express themselves on the ice as they see fit.

I find it rather misogynistic. It is all part and parcel with the notion that that which is feminine is weak. Same reason that people bemoan pink stuff being marketed for little girls and pay not attention to the fact that boys are all dressed in some variety of green, blue or camo prints without exception. It is far more likely at your local elementary school to spot girls in all colors of the rainbow without objections or harassment than to find a boy wearing a pastel color or even just orange.
 

Hyena

Tous les whiskys
Medalist
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
But why is anything too feminine taken to task so often among skating fans? Female skaters who skate to music perceived as feminine, wear their hair certain ways, wear costumes perceived as too feminine are often derided as "pretty princesses" or worse--both words spelled with "w"s. Why can we not accept the women for who they are as well? In the case of Gracie Gold, her off ice persona comes off as pretty girly-girl. Perhaps her look on ice is what she prefers. Why is that not okay?

For the record, I think we also need to accept female skaters exactly as they are, regardless of the extent to which they adhere to traditional gender stereotypes. The original post that I replied to was talking about male skaters, which is why I focused on that in my response. I'm bothered when female skaters are blasted for being too feminine AND for not being feminine enough. Both are incredibly problematic.

I'm not sure if you were doing that, Hyena. By "we" did you mean only yourself and drivingmissdaisy, since you had identified a point of agreement between you? It was the "Just something for us all to think about" that made me wonder if you meant that I and everyone else reading this thread feels exactly the same.

Didn't mean to imply this at all. I was trying to be very careful in my language because I didn't want to come across as accusatory to drivingmissdaisy, which is why I chose "we" and "us" instead of "you", but obviously "us all" ended up being misleading and I apologize. That being said, speaking as a feminist, I think we can always benefit from thinking about our own responses and the responses of others in respectful ways.

Edited for clarity
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Thanks, Hyena.

I am very interested in skating from a feminist perspective, or a general gender studies perspective. It certainly does seem to be full of contradictions -- which is part of what interests me.
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
I'm Japanese and I find the attitudes towards androgyny in Japan as positive, but the attitudes towards homosexuality leaning towards negative.
That is to say, you can dress like a woman, or wear make up, be stylish and extremely fashion conscious, but you must not say you are gay.
Of course, this is a broad statement, and things are different in the countryside and the city.
I've heard it said in interviews and when others are commenting on Hanyu, that he looks so beautiful and 'like a girl' but that his personality is very boyish. I've not heard it ever mentioned in a negative way so people in Japan like this about him. Personally, I think he has enough self confidence to pull it off so good for him.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I'm Japanese and I find the attitudes towards androgyny in Japan as positive, but the attitudes towards homosexuality leaning towards negative.
That is to say, you can dress like a woman, or wear make up, be stylish and extremely fashion conscious, but you must not say you are gay.
Of course, this is a broad statement, and things are different in the countryside and the city.
I've heard it said in interviews and when others are commenting on Hanyu, that he looks so beautiful and 'like a girl' but that his personality is very boyish. I've not heard it ever mentioned in a negative way so people in Japan like this about him. Personally, I think he has enough self confidence to pull it off so good for him.

Thanks so much for these details!
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
I'm Japanese and I find the attitudes towards androgyny in Japan as positive, but the attitudes towards homosexuality leaning towards negative.
That is to say, you can dress like a woman, or wear make up, be stylish and extremely fashion conscious, but you must not say you are gay.

Very interesting, thanks. Funny how here in Canada/U.S., a large part of the taboo about being gay seems to be because it goes against gender norms and the two are strongly linked in people's minds, while elsewhere androgyny is cool and all but homosexuality isn't. Seems the two are considered to be more separate elsewhere?

Count me in as someone who appreciates a variety of styles in both sexes. To me, that's part of what makes it fun and interesting. I wouldn't want male skaters to feel like they have to be butch or balletic. (I don't like to use the word "artistic" to describe what people consider an effeminate style, because there are a lot of ways to be artistic.)

I was annoyed by Stojko's comments about how male figure skating should be about "masculinity" and "strength." I liked him as a skater. He wasn't the most versatile, but he had his own style, powerful and intense, and it worked for him. There was talk from his supporters about how men shouldn't have to be balletic and classically elegant to be artistic, how he should be allowed to "be who he is." Well, sure, that's all well and good. So why, then, should other men not be who they are? Why should there be a push to pander to the hockey crowd and act like manly men? Why does skating have to be as mainstream as hockey, etc.? I doubt effeminate men was the reason for the drop in popularity, anyway. It's not like there are more of them now than there were in the 90s.
 

airin

Rinkside
Joined
May 7, 2013
This may or may not be a related concept, but I know that kabuki is still a premier art form in Japan, and one tradition is that certain actors specialize in playing the female roles. One of the greatest Kabuki actors of modern times, Bandō Tamasaburō V, is such a specialist. This is not at all equivalent to the Western concept of the drag queen or anything campy; it's part one of the most elevated art forms in Japan. Significantly, this gender tradition has continued centuries past the equivalent Western practice of having boys play girls' roles onstage (notably in Shakespeare's time and in the opera). So it must be something that Japanese culture is at home with. If this is true, it gives Japanese men an extra expressive latitude, I'd think.

As you say, kabuki is not directly related to figure skating, but I found your description providing a very nice hint to understand the cultural attitude of Japanese society.
Adding to your explanation, kabuki actors consist of only guys, and the culture of kabuki is traditionally handed down to the next generation from fathers to sons for hundreds of years(with some exceptions, though). Therefore kabuki actors are socially supposed to get married and have children, including those who specialize in female roles, so dressing in women’s clothes and playing a woman’s role never mean they are gay.
Kabuki is one of the most unique forms among many other forms of Japanese culture, and society of kabuki actors are considered to be quite atypical in Japan. But I think it can make a good example because I think I can point out that being androgyny on the stage or a man wearing costumes like a woman are not viewed in the negative way in Japan, because it doesn’t necessarily mean they are actually homosexual. Wearing womanish clothes is not a problem as long as they are regarded as costumes, and being “beautiful like a girl” is a compliment because he is thought to be a boy not a gay, or even if someone who appears on TV is actually a gay, he is considered to be something exceptional that would do nothing with lives of ordinary people, since very few people come out that they are homosexual in Japanese society. But if a man begins to make himself look as a woman in his real life, probably people around him will see him in a negative way.

This is just my personal viewpoint.
Social attitude toward gender is related to so many factors in social, historical, political, cultural and religious aspects, so it cannot be explained in a simple way. So we’d need much more analysis and explanation if we tried to have an accurate and comprehensive understanding.
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
What kind of surprises me as ironic is that North America is supposed to be the "Putin-free zone" and yet, it seems that the place from where, number-wise, people (albeit only a portion) seem to having the biggest issue with costumes and masculinity is . . . North America. (N.A. does also have a high majority who have no problem with it, I think, ie people who can tolerate difference, diversity, inclusion as evidenced by some of the posts here, and in the laws enacted generally as acceptance by the majority publicly of at least some diversity.)

Just for skating, look at the costumes of some of the Russian skaters (past and present). In the land of Putin, they don't appear to have these same kinds of "hate issues" against skaters that are articulated by critics within the North American setting.

The present debate has been complicated by the type of odd critic who is using the costume issue as a form of hate vehicle in a no-holds personal attack against a particular skater, but that form of criticism can be readily dismissed as unstable. It is apart from that type, to the more apparently rational segment where it gets more concerning. When there is a large portion (even if it is still a minority and, again, as well, I am excluding the nutter type previously mentioned because there is no help for that sort) of a free society that is intolerant wishing not just to leave people be and let them participate, but, instead, impose their rules on a minority and make them conform to their standard, it is indicative that they want a society that is not free. Instead, they are advocating intolerance and exclusion. Very concerning. Surely, intolerance and exclusion is not the way that skating wants to go no matter what. Nor should it be the way that any society turn and surrender to.
 

RobinA

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Society is changing, true. I don't know if figure skating could lead the way though. It is far behind, it seems.

I completely disagree that figure skating is far behind. Far behind what, exactly? Football, hockey? I don't think so. Figure skating is certainly not perfect or maybe where we wish it would be, but the fact that issues of gayness are even discussed with reference to figure skating, the fact that any figure skaters, current or past, are out at all puts it miles ahead or most other sports.

This article, to me, is just another attempt to make figure skating look bad and to hold it to a different standard than other sports. Let's see an article, "Football, Turf Closet." With that said, yeah, skating could do better and should continue to strive to do so. But is it certainly ahead of almost every other sport when it comes to acknowledging and accepting that there are, in fact, gay members of the sport and that those members have just as much to offer as any other figure skater.
 

RobinA

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
I don't at all consider you a hater for posting this. I've found myself having a similar reaction before. That being said, I think it's worthwhile to be curious about WHY we prefer men to have a powerful masculine presence. Is it a genuine preference for more powerful performances that crosses gender lines, or is our reaction due to the expectations we've been socialized to have for how men should "be"? Just something for us all to think about.

Well, I don't think "we" do prefer men to have a powerful male presence. Some people do. I, and I'm sure many others, tend to like Weir-type male skating and take a refrigerator break when the likes of Elvis Stojko take the ice. One of the good things about skating is that there is usually something for everyone. Less so under CoP (I had to get that in), but still enough to interest fans of all kinds of preferences. Above all, most fans seem to appreciate almost any style of skating when it is done exceptionally. I know I do.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
One of my friends is competing in the men's event (individual, not team) and he is gay himself (though not out to everyone). He told me that if asked about the laws he isn't sure whether to flat out come out as that might change people's perception of him. I told him that he shouldn't feel compelled to come out, but the most important thing is how you perceive yourself because there's always bound to be someone with a nasty opinion trying to bring gay people down.
 
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