Tatiana Volosozhar & Maxim Trankov

They might have been overscored in Sochi, but so were Tatiana and Max, and they also had a lot of problems in their Free during the year, and in the Olympics.

Click to expand...

Obviously. But not so much. The point is that their elements are perfect despite the fact that she e.g. touched ice with her hand/leg. And S/K's elements are good and she e.g. touched ice with her hand/leg. That's the difference. In Budapesti and Saitama they had normal GOE (and Ksenia looked disappointed because they placed 2nd at their first Worlds ). They are very good pair and they deserved this silver medal but their scores during the season grew with amazing speed what is quite strange to me.

The important thing is that both pairs won fair and square.

Click to expand...

I agree with it absolutely. Both pairs deserved their places. I'm only saying, that S/K could just get something like 139/140.

they also had a lot of problems in their Free during the year, and in the Olympics.

Click to expand...

Tatiana and Maxim were skating or utterly terrific or utterly terrible programs. If they skated well, their score was on the same level. When Ksenia and Fedor skated well, they had score from 130 to 143. And how the hell they got more in PCS than Duhamel an Radford, it's still a secret for me. Especially for choreography.

LittleLotte29 said:

and Ksenia looked disappointed because they placed 2nd at their first Worlds

Click to expand...

I really don't think that's the case. They were tired, and said so.
They had to sleep on the rink and did suffered that. They just couldn't wait to finish a long hard season, IMO.
They are intelligent enough and knows that in Sochi they won silver because S&S made two major errors.
I think they are really happy with that silver, at world. Maybe they didn't show the same enthusiasm as at the Olympics but that's understandable. It's not the same thing and it's hard to compete right after the Olympics (and won the silver there) which sucks up a lot of energy.

And how the hell they got more in PCS than Duhamel an Radford, it's still a secret for me. Especially for choreography

Click to expand...

Are we talking about the same Duhamel? Are you really asking how did S&K got more in PCS, including for choreo?!
They were beaten by 4 other pairs, including Vera&Yuri and M-M&T, in components as well as choreo.
S&K had a wonderful program and their performance was great.

Tatiana and Maxim were skating or utterly terrific or utterly terrible programs. If they skated well, their score was on the same level.

Click to expand...

I LOVE them, you know that by now, but the choreo for that free was ugly and they got 10's. Their worst program by far.
I was extremely happy when they won, but a bit irritated that they had to skate to that program in the Olympic, at home. Thanks god for the SP. A true masterpiece!

Anyway, it's all history now.

Certainly, an interesting discussion here among a few of you. You certainly know technical details and the recent histories and current problems of some of the pairs! Were you skaters? Or even coaches? Or just serious devotees of the sport -- so much so that you recall or perhaps study carefully the marks of certain programs? Or you have staggering memories!

Nessie said:

Certainly, an interesting discussion here among a few of you. You certainly know technical details and the recent histories and current problems of some of the pairs! Were you skaters? Or even coaches? Or just serious devotees of the sport -- so much so that you recall or perhaps study carefully the marks of certain programs? Or you have staggering memories!

Click to expand...

I am an avid fan of pairs and dance for many years now. I am not an expert in judging or coaching,I just love the beauty and talent that comes with great programs. JCSS is one of my favourite musicals and I thought V and T did a superb job of bringing it from stage to ice. The whole concept was brilliant in my mind.I saw an interview where Max talked about how he had wanted to skate to this music for years and actually had to fight to get for their LP as people said it wasn't a winning piece.
Also thanks to all the people who post comments. I don't agree with all of course but I do learn from all the discussions.

Nessie said:

Certainly, an interesting discussion here among a few of you. You certainly know technical details and the recent histories and current problems of some of the pairs! Were you skaters? Or even coaches? Or just serious devotees of the sport -- so much so that you recall or perhaps study carefully the marks of certain programs? Or you have staggering memories!

Click to expand...

I don't know who exactly you referred to but- I'm neither a skater nor a coach I'm a rhythmic gymnast, and I think these sports have more in common than most people seem to realize. That's why I admire figure skating so I'm just a fan of the sport

About the 'Ksenia is too dominant/self centered'
I once read an article or something that said that both of Russia's top pairs have something in commen: They both have one partner who is wilder and a strong character and a bit hard to handle, and one partner who is an angel can can therefor put up with the other one.
Like balancing each other out.
And I think that's so true! Tanya can handle Max and Fedor can handle Ksenia and they profit if one another.
If you put Ksenia and Max together, I think it would just end in fights and no results.
If you put Tanya and Fedor together, they'd lack the 'fire'...that's exaggerated of course, but you know what I mean

Are we talking about the same Duhamel? Are you really asking how did S&K got more in PCS, including for choreo?!
They were beaten by 4 other pairs, including Vera&Yuri and M-M&T, in components as well as choreo.
S&K had a wonderful program and their performance was great.

Click to expand...

I'm not a huge fan of D/R's choreography, and generally not a huge fan of Julie Marcotte's choreographies but in my opinion D/R had the best SP at Worlds. And, sorry, but S/K choreography is just empty, especially for short. Just compare these two programs, since the beginning. After twist, Ksenia and Fedor are coming THROUGH the ice rink with crossovers and doing toeloops. At the same time, Meagan and Eric are changing the direction couple of times, going AROUND the ice rink, making steps and crossovers, doing their lutzes. Then, Russians are making steps and other skating elements (spread eagle) for a very short time on very small area of ice rink, stop it, coming into crossovers again and making 3F. Canadians are making steps and crossovers, changing directions again, fluently coming into the lift (means not: steps then crossovers , but steps and crossovers), with the lift on the other side of a rink, then a creative coming out of the lift, while S/K are coming into the lift in the same way they were coming to flip - firstly steps for a short time, then crossovers through half of ice rink when Meagan and Eric need only a moment, really short moment of crossovers to make a lift and they are covering much more ice rink with this element than Ksenia and Fedor. Russians: crossovers again and some, very, very little, steps, done in totally the same way they came to other elements - they are in distance what makes it easier and death spiral with usual entry, pair spin straightly after it. D/R after a few elements are making pair spin (straightly from lift). S/K: after pair spin they are just staying at the end of ice rink and making step sequence. They don't change holds, it's clearly average step sequence. Meagan and Eric: after pair spin they are coming in a really creative way to 3Lz with nice connecting elements (Ksenia and Fedor has no connecting elements), after then fluently into step sequence with many changes of holds, after that a superb entry into a death spiral.
S/K don't cover whole ice rink, they have elements in the same fragments of rink, their program consist of: making shortly steps, then long crossovers and elements, one after another. They have middling timing as they don't need it having monotonous music. Meagan and Eric cover whole ice rink, have elements on very different fragments of rink, their program is fluent, filled with many elements which no other pair have. They have perfect timing what is really difficult to do with their music. They change directions, have intricate pattern. They have varied use of energy, clear balance of workload between partners. For me, the conclusion is one: Meagan and Eric deserved 10's for their choreography which they never had. And they deserved about 80 for their SP if executed well.

They were beaten by 4 other pairs, including Vera&Yuri and M-M&T, in components as well as choreo.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know. Bazarova and Larionov, if not overscored in PCS they would have never been in top 10. They usually have incredible PCS.

I LOVE them, you know that by now, but the choreo for that free was ugly and they got 10's. Their worst program by far.

Click to expand...

I like this program and it is an ideal program, according to what does ISU want: purpose, proportion, unity, utilization of personal and public space, good pattern and ice coverage, phrasing and form, originality, and shared sesponsibility of purpose. They had quite a difficult music, arhytmical (Webber's masterpiece ) However, I'm counting on a better program this season.

Were you skaters? Or even coaches? Or just serious devotees of the sport

Click to expand...

The last one

starlight97 said:

About the 'Ksenia is too dominant/self centered'
I once read an article or something that said that both of Russia's top pairs have something in commen: They both have one partner who is wilder and a strong character and a bit hard to handle, and one partner who is an angel can can therefor put up with the other one.
Like balancing each other out.
And I think that's so true! Tanya can handle Max and Fedor can handle Ksenia and they profit if one another.
If you put Ksenia and Max together, I think it would just end in fights and no results.
If you put Tanya and Fedor together, they'd lack the 'fire'...that's exaggerated of course, but you know what I mean

Click to expand...

I fully agree.

LittleLotte29 said:

I'm not a huge fan of D/R's choreography, and generally not a huge fan of Julie Marcotte's choreographies but in my opinion D/R had the best SP at Worlds. And, sorry, but S/K choreography is just empty, especially for short.

Click to expand...

I was speaking about the LP, but still I don't agree at all about S&K choreo to be just empty tbh, on the contrary.

Anyway, the difference was not big between the two in that area. D&R got 8.14, S&K got 8.39.
D&R had better transition and that was reflected (although not a huge difference) 8.11 vs 8.18 in favor of the canadians.
Overall the PCS were 32.51 D&R vs 33.75 S&K, and rightly so IMO.

As for V&T LP, I don't doubt that meet the ISU requirments but I don't think it was a beautiful program, and I certainly don't think it deserved 10 for choreo and intepretation.

Anyway, we may agree to disagree on this subject. I don't want to transform V&T fanfest into S&K discussion.

Nessie said:

Certainly, an interesting discussion here among a few of you. You certainly know technical details and the recent histories and current problems of some of the pairs! Were you skaters? Or even coaches? Or just serious devotees of the sport -- so much so that you recall or perhaps study carefully the marks of certain programs? Or you have staggering memories!

Click to expand...

No staggering memory. I wish that was true.
I might remember who got more and where, in general, but if I want to be more specific about it I have to check the protocols.

I once read an article or something that said that both of Russia's top pairs have something in commen: They both have one partner who is wilder and a strong character and a bit hard to handle, and one partner who is an angel can can therefor put up with the other one.
Like balancing each other out.
And I think that's so true! Tanya can handle Max and Fedor can handle Ksenia and they profit if one another.
If you put Ksenia and Max together, I think it would just end in fights and no results.
If you put Tanya and Fedor together, they'd lack the 'fire'...that's exaggerated of course, but you know what I mean

Click to expand...

Not only Russia's top pair skaters, generally top pair skaters. Savchenko/Szolkowy, Pang/Tong, Duhamel/Radford.

I was speaking about the LP, but still I don't agree at all about S&K choreo to be just empty tbh, on the contrary.

Click to expand...

You dont's agree about SP or FS being empty cause I got lost?

Anyway, the difference was not big between the two in that area. D&R got 8.14, S&K got 8.39.
D&R had better transition and that was reflected (although not a huge difference) 8.11 vs 8.18 in favor of the canadians.
Overall the PCS were 32.51 D&R vs 33.75 S&K, and rightly so IMO.

Click to expand...

Rightly? Seriously - rightly? S/K for a program with poor linking footwork and no transitions had 7/100 of a point less than Meagan and Eric for a brilliant performance, filled with intricate multidirectional, footwork, interesting elements (especially entries to a death spiral and LzTh), great timing, good interpretation - tell me one reason S/K deserved more in PCS.
S/K had a immense PCS for an average choreography. Their LP is much better and we can argue here whose choreography (Candians or Russians) is better. I still think that Canadians were better but you're right - let's agree to disagree

As for V&T LP, I don't doubt that meet the ISU requirments but I don't think it was a beautiful program, and I certainly don't think it deserved 10 for choreo and intepretation.

Click to expand...

Well, if that meet ISU requirements totally, it deserved 10 It's just so, judges are giving marks according to some rules which Nikolai Morozov knows very well. And their program is created in a way that it meets ISU requirements. In both case of choreography and interpretation.

By the way, in my opinion Jesus Christ Superstar is a great program. Quite difficult music to interpret, meaningful movements, good fluency, not overused music. I really like JCHS itself, it's a splendid musical, I think the best one of Andrew Lloyd Webber. I wish it was used as commonly as PotO

LittleLotte29 said:

By the way, in my opinion Jesus Christ Superstar is a great program. Quite difficult music to interpret, meaningful movements, good fluency, not overused music. I really like JCHS itself, it's a splendid musical, I think the best one of Andrew Lloyd Webber. I wish it was used as commonly as PotO

Click to expand...

LittleLotte, I completely agree with you about Jesus Christ Superstar. It was a great choice if music. V/T performance was not as good in Sochi, as it was in SA, but they were under a lot of pressure, but they won. It was much easier for S/K, as they didn't have much pressure like Tanya and Maxim had.

Maggie said:

I am an avid fan of pairs and dance for many years now. I am not an expert in judging or coaching,I just love the beauty and talent that comes with great programs. JCSS is one of my favourite musicals and I thought V and T did a superb job of bringing it from stage to ice. The whole concept was brilliant in my mind.I saw an interview where Max talked about how he had wanted to skate to this music for years and actually had to fight to get for their LP as people said it wasn't a winning piece.
Also thanks to all the people who post comments. I don't agree with all of course but I do learn from all the discussions.

Click to expand...

that's my opinion too. JCST is my fav v/t FS, it gives me goose bumps every time i rewatch it. to me they managed to create something extraordinary with such a difficult music. every year they create an even better program. i adored r&j and after that black swan, but violin muse toped them and in the end JCST became the best for me. i remember the first time i saw them at worlds in 2011 and thinking that we'll witness something amazing.

LittleLotte, I completely agree with you about Jesus Christ Superstar. It was a great choice if music. V/T performance was not as good in Sochi, as it was in SA, but they were under a lot of pressure, but they won. It was much easier for S/K, as they didn't have much pressure like Tanya and Maxim had.

Click to expand...

V/T done great. I was very happy of them and obviously they had reasons to be proud of themselves. 4 years ago, Shen/Zhao program wasn't perfect either. But it was good enough to place them first. As was JCHS Stolbova and Klimov weren't under such a pressure, they skated first when whole onlookers' attention was on V/T vs. S/S. Good for them, they did a brilliant performance and absolutely deserved silver medal.

Just hear this ovation... before program. It must have been frightening. And, I don't know if your commentators said it but our commentator repeated a few times that in the audience are Protopopovs (you know, legends of this sport, I think they invented some types of a death spiral, 2-times Olympic champions). Their Olympic gold from 1964 was the first Olympic gold for the Soviet Union's skating pair. Silver medal got then a German skating pair, Marika Kilius and Hans-Juergen Baeumler.
They got a title in 1964 - it was exactly 50 years ago. By competing with German pair. First Olympic gold. And now - they are in the audience. Oh my, can you imagine such a pressure?

Have you seen this before? Michelle Kwan and Peter Schrager (I think he's FoxSports' journalist, am I right?) are talking about SP of skating pairs in Sochi, that's a fragment about Tania and Max' program. But I higly recommend the whole movie. It's very nice what they are talking about Zhang/Bartholomay (what a pity that they decided to split, I've just read that he will be skating with Gretchen Donlan) - they said "they did the country very proud tonight". I think it's cute. If I were Felicia or Nathan, I'd like to see Michelle Kwan agreeing with such a statement

Maggie said:

I am an avid fan of pairs and dance for many years now. I am not an expert in judging or coaching,I just love the beauty and talent that comes with great programs. JCSS is one of my favourite musicals and I thought V and T did a superb job of bringing it from stage to ice. The whole concept was brilliant in my mind.I saw an interview where Max talked about how he had wanted to skate to this music for years and actually had to fight to get for their LP as people said it wasn't a winning piece.
Also thanks to all the people who post comments. I don't agree with all of course but I do learn from all the discussions.

Click to expand...

Thanks !! I agree wholeheartedly...I too absolutely loved V&T’s JCSS free. I always get a lump in my throat when I watch it. V&T were truly moved as they skated and the program was solemn, reverent, lyrical and to my mind, a bit erotic. The whole program could have devolved, in lesser hands, into mushy sentimentality, but it didn’t. However, I think their “Godfather” theme program is a real drag. The music is an uninspired version of a rather good movie theme. It's boring. Anyway, I guess it’s all a matter of preference.

I’ve gotta’ watch the Michelle Kwan thing – thanks! Rhythmic gymmast – neat!

the program was solemn, reverent, lyrical

Click to expand...

Yes, lyrical. And the best thing is that the music is rock on its own (as JCHS - hey, everybody here has thier own abbreviation of the title, did you notice ;D - is a ROCK opera, not really a musical). And it's great - well, I don't see any eroticism in it but it's your vision, Nessie

Nessie said:

However, I think their “Godfather” theme program is a real drag. The music is an uninspired version of a rather good movie theme. It's boring. Anyway, I guess it’s all a matter of preference.

I’ve gotta’ watch the Michelle Kwan thing – thanks! Rhythmic gymmast – neat!

Click to expand...

haha omg Nessie, you serious? I think their Godfather program is a masterpiece. All of us have such different opinions!

As I see it, every year they have a weak program and a strong one. Usually they're pretty strong in the short, with the exception of the 2011-12 season. I still think that Black Swan is their best LP to this day.

kinoriH said:

haha omg Nessie, you serious? I think their Godfather program is a masterpiece. All of us have such different opinions!

As I see it, every year they have a weak program and a strong one. Usually they're pretty strong in the short, with the exception of the 2011-12 season. I still think that Black Swan is their best LP to this day.

Click to expand...

Isn't it wonderful that we all have different opinions. Also it is great to hear their programs described by different commentators. I love the English Eurosport and CBC.

Maggie- i think it's great that we can all share our different outlooks and opinions.. It's pretty interesting to see that actually, because we all come from different countries & cultures so i guess that's why one can be more drawn to a certain kind of music that the other perosn might not like at all.

I come from a country in the middle east, where we have a very unique type of music and pretty strong cultural history. But despite that i found it pretty hard to accept the fact that V/T actually chose indian music for their SP. I might come from a culture that's pretty similar to that, but i still cannot listen to any indian/ eastern music. I just can't stand it.

In complete contrary to that, I think THIS indian program by Davis and White is AMAZING. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBJHvVhadk

I'm weird and complex, I know.

kinoriH said:

Maggie- i think it's great that we can all share our different outlooks and opinions.. It's pretty interesting to see that actually, because we all come from different countries & cultures so i guess that's why one can be more drawn to a certain kind of music that the other perosn might not like at all.

I come from a country in the middle east, where we have a very unique type of music and pretty strong cultural history. But despite that i found it pretty hard to accept the fact that V/T actually chose indian music for their SP. I might come from a culture that's pretty similar to that, but i still cannot listen to any indian/ eastern music. I just can't stand it.

In complete contrary to that, I think THIS indian program by Davis and White is AMAZING. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBJHvVhadk

I'm weird and complex, I know.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this video. It is one I had not seen. I cannot wait to see what V and T do with the music they have chosen. It will be quite unique I'm sure.

LittleLotte29 said:

You dont's agree about SP or FS being empty cause I got lost?

Click to expand...

Both. I do like more their Free, and I think it was the best free on the night, but to call their SP empty I completely disagree.

Rightly? Seriously - rightly? S/K for a program with poor linking footwork and no transitions had 7/100 of a point less than Meagan and Eric for a brilliant performance, filled with intricate multidirectional, footwork, interesting elements (especially entries to a death spiral and LzTh), great timing, good interpretation - tell me one reason S/K deserved more in PCS.

Click to expand...

Interpretation, skating skills, timing, performance, choreo. Transitions were really good but, as I said before, I would've given more to D&R on the transitions, only. Even M-M&T got almost the same point on PCS as D&R on the SP.

Their LP is much better and we can argue here whose choreography (Candians or Russians) is better. I still think that Canadians were better but you're right - let's agree to disagree

Click to expand...

Again, the Canadians were placed in 7 place with their LP, but somehow you have a problem with SK who placed second for beating them?!
Their teammates, M&M-T were better than D&R by almost 3 points on the components.

Well, if that meet ISU requirements totally, it deserved 10 It's just so, judges are giving marks according to some rules which Nikolai Morozov knows very well. And their program is created in a way that it meets ISU requirements. In both case of choreography and interpretation.

Click to expand...

I was speaking in general, including the tech, when I spoke about ISU requirements.
However, standing in the middle of the rink doing nothing, and possibly checking the hair like Tatiana did, is not what I call a choreo&interpretation which deserve to receive 10's.
Degustibus, I guess. I'm not a judge, so they know better than me for sure.

Nessie said:

However, I think their “Godfather” theme program is a real drag. The music is an uninspired version of a rather good movie theme. It's boring.

Click to expand...

I agree. I think their "Godfather" version of music was mediocre, at best.

kinoriH said:

But despite that i found it pretty hard to accept the fact that V/T actually chose indian music for their SP. I might come from a culture that's pretty similar to that, but i still cannot listen to any indian/ eastern music. I just can't stand it.

In complete contrary to that, I think THIS indian program by Davis and White is AMAZING. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBJHvVhadk

Click to expand...

I agree on both accounts. I don't like the indian music, and eastern in general myself, but I do think that D&W program was very good.
Maybe because it was an Original Dance, so it suits better to the purpose.

Anyway, it's a pop-indian music from what I've been told. I saw a minute of their training and heard the music a bit but I couldn't make an idea.
It was too short and one of their staff members caught my friend filming and he got very angry.

V/T are usually compared to Protopopovs, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Berezhnaya/ Sikharulidze in Russia, because of the way they show relationship between man and a woman on ice. I don't feel it from S/K.
Anyway, we all have got different opinions.
Alba, I hope, your friend is not in a trouble.