The "European Style" and who has it...

PrincessLeppard said:

I agree that sounds like MK. But when I was talking, originally, about European style, I was referring to the men. I am really not a fan of the Mike Weiss/Elvis Stojko "I'm a man, dammit!" style of skating, (though I do love Stojko's energy and charisma) and I just love the smooth quality and expressiveness of the Russian men, as well as Van Der Perren, for example, and some lesser known Euro men, like Gregor Urbas, Karel Zelenka and slightly better known men like Sergei Davydov and the Murve.

Laura

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Oh, how I wish Karel would be at worlds, so for everyone to see!! He skates sooooooo smooth, and with great edges.
his free skate at euros was awsome!

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Originally posted by Matt

OK, now my reponse: I think that there is a "European style" and if anything definite, is the fluid, simplistic, lyrical, edge-strong quality of skating that isn't so dependent on the jumps, but more about an appreciative enjoyment of actually skating. Everything we at GS gush about : the back positions, the time taken to do the MITF and finish off the programme, the deep knees, etc.
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Matt - What you seem to be discussing is good technique, simplistic, lyrical, strong edging, deep knees, etc. I could go on with other traits such as a good plies(sp) when landing jumps, good entrances and finishes of spins, etc., etc. All that is technique - not style, albeit without good technique style wouldn't work. I'm sure when you see a ballet such as Giselle, the style of the dancer is different than the last Giselle you saw. It should be, dancers strive to be original and give that something extra.

I reiterate my belief that style is individual and not nationalistic although it may be influenced by country of origin and how much that plays a part in ones life. I do believe that coaching can be nationalistic as well as judging, so elements and their importance may be relative.

My point here is not to confuse Style with Technique, and moreso with the elements such as quads because one can easily bring up Nelidina.

Cheers - Joe

I guess that is probably the result of the movement toward freer artistic expression? I think we all agree that costuming adds a lot to the appearance of the performance and helps express the idea of the choregraphy. I would also think that the range of music choice has to be broader now than it was then. Just imagine Ryan Jahnke skating in suits to his brazillian dance program -- Shine

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AAAAAAIIIIEEEE!!! Sweaters??? Are you kidding me? Evgeni in a sweater while skating to Edvin Marton??? Ilia Klimkin performing Dr. Diesel in a sweater???

I was a child of the 80s. Give me men in lace and fabulous costumes anytime!

Laura

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OK, OK. But what about the trend in men's basketball uniforms? I'm watching March Madness and these guys seem like they're about to trip over their way-too-long baggy shorts.

MM

"Europian style" is what Europian audience likes to see...IMO


Ladskater did I say /Toller not appreciated in Canada/? These are YOUR words.
May be you misunderstood something...Tooler is the best example of "European style", and he is not European skater. In one of his books ( if you read them???) He says ( not exact words, can't remember), "for one program he skated at Canadian competition, audience didn't understood him and he didn't get applauses he wanted, but then in a few weeks he went to Europe and skated the same program, and got huge applause and standing ovation.
When you talk about styles, you should talk about audience as well.
Ladskater have you been in Europe, have you seen standing ovation Plushenko gets now? Noted , I didn't compare Plushenko to Toller ( "incomparable Toller." ) I just compare European style, in another words, what European audience likes to see.
IMO

Joesitz said:

I reiterate my belief that style is individual and not nationalistic although it may be influenced by country of origin and how much that plays a part in ones life. I do believe that coaching can be nationalistic as well as judging, so elements and their importance may be relative.
[/B]

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I would take a position half-way between Joe's and Matt's. I don't believe in any "European" style, but I do believe in the influence of a particular school of figure skating. For example, there has long been strong rivalry in Russian pair skating between Moscow and Leningrad schools (now, unfortunately, only the St. Petersburg school is left). Typical for that rivalry would be the Protopopovs vs. Rodnina & Ulanov, and Gordeeva & Grinkov vs. Valova & Vasiliev, and later Mishkitenok & Dmitriev. The St. Peteresburg school embodied what many think of as European choreography; Moscow school embodied what many think of as Soviet discipline. Both those schools were very Russian, and yet were probably as different as schools of Europe and North America.

Ladskater have you been in Europe, have you seen standing ovation Plushenko gets now?

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He wasn't in Lausanne, so it would have been interesting to see how this mainly French, Italian and Swiss audience recieved him, especially compared to Yagudin and Abt who were very well recieved there.

He got a hugh, long ovation in Malmo, but there were alot of Russians in the audience as it's not so far to travel.

But, then again, he got a lot of applause (probably the most of all the men) at Cambell's in NYC, so go figure.

In Budapest, the people in my section actually booed his SP placement over Jubert.

berthes ghost, I've seen ALL his performances at Art on ice and others, not only two Europians.

berthes ghost said:

In Budapest, the people in my section actually booed his SP placement over Jubert.

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I can see that, but Evgeni's fw is more difficult than Brian's. And I love the Time program...

But, anyway, the audience went nuts during Evgeni's exhibition performance. (did it help that Edvin was there? Probably, but the footwork rocked!)

Laura

What I think about European style... personally, I think it does not exist. There are different schools and you can see the different technique in Chinese and Russian pairs, for example. But generally, each skater is an individual with different personality, taste and style. Coaches from one country having students from other nations is also common, skaters training in countries that aren't theirs is more than common. There are no "cultural" areas in skating IMO. This frankly reminds me of Huntington and his innacurate and quite amazing (in the bad sense) "clash of civilizations".

WHOA...I apologize for bringing a thread that is nearly causing an international incident LOL!

As for what I'm getting at when I say "European style", what I see from a lot of the North American skaters and the major players (Russians, big name French, etc) is an emphasis on big jumps, speed and intricacy of choreography...but approached more for athleticism. A lot of European skaters, IMO, the ones that have very good basics skills, deep edges, and good posture use them for an artistic purpose and more appreciation for skating. Take the difference between ice shows in the US and Europe. In the US, it's (mostly) all about big jumps, lots of posing, and campy humour so the audience has a good time. I would say that in Europe, ice shows are more about actual skating; there seems to be a higher appreciation for skating as an art. Don't get me wrong, European exhibitions can be campy, but even in the campiest, there is a lot of good basic skating. Look at the gala from Europeans, if you want to see what I'm trying to get at, especially the performances of Kostner and Joubert

In other words, I guess what I would consider a "European style" is skating that is for the sake of skating rather than just to rack up athletic merit in the eyes of the judges. Maybe that's why a lot of the skaters we've mentioned (Zelenka, Lambiel, VDP, Murvanidze) aren't the one at the top; the judges don't want aesthetics, they want quads

Matt - question for you...

In your descripition of the "european style vis a vis north american style", are you implying "atheleticism" subtract from skating?

Matt - There is no problem with the thread. It just got unresolved personal feelings out in the open using the thread as an excuse. Keep it running. I am really interested if there is a European Style. It's just so hard to compare Dambier and Griazev.

Pitchkin - Excellent point of view on the Russian Pairs and the history of the cities' rivalries. It goes back to the classicla ballet era when the two cities had entirely different styles of dancing. The Maryinsky was the lyrical one and the Bolshoi was the bravura one.

Joe

bleuchick said:

Matt - question for you...

In your descripition of the "european style vis a vis north american style", are you implying "atheleticism" subtract from skating?

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I'm probably sounding like it, though I realise that you can't separate athleticism completely for figure skating as figure skating is a sport. I just don't think that everything in a skater's programme be for the sake of the athletic merit. Obviously, triple jumps, quad, and spins will demonstrate a skater's athleticism, but in a sport where you conciously pick things like music, costume, and work with a choreographer, it must just be me, but I would think there should be some focus on the artistry and an effort to make come out with all the work put into it. I know figure skating will only move forward by pushing the bounds of athleticism, but that's not the only good aspect of figure skating. Just like the old argument when the 6.0 system was in place, there are two marks, it's not just about the jumps. Artistry is what drew me to figure skating in the first place; it's one of the most unique things about the sport, and I don't think skaters should throw it by the wayside for the sake of the jumps

(Wow, I'm breaking my own thread rules by getting off topic )

While we are on the subject of European style, we should look at how the European ladies present themselves. I was a big admirer of Vanessa Gusmeroli when she competed b/c she had really innovative programs choreographed by the German Norbert Schramm (who was avant garde himself when he competed). She didn't have the tiny graceful look but she made up for it by having interesting/showlike choreography. I loved her jewel thief number which she skated in a black outfit that covered everything and then in the middle of the number, suddenly a huge rhinestone bracelet appeared on her wrist.

Also Laurent Tobel's programs stand out for me as well in the use of sophisticated humor.

I think that within the European style, you have a lot of skaters willing to use subtle humor to distinguish themselves from the North Americans. American guys are separated into two distinct groups : athletic line (my term) for Todd E. and Paul Wylie: emphasis on edges , body positions and spins ; and audience pleasers (the muggers) like Weiss, Christopher Bowman, Dan Hollander and Elvis Stoiko. Yes Elvis has the whole look at me I'm a man approach yet he gears this attitude to the audience who can't get enough of anti-establishment Elvis and couldn't care less about whether he's skating to his music or not. Interestingly enough, the artistic American skaters were Rudy Galindo and Johnny Weir who are feminine in their approach to skating. I don't know Johnny's sexuality but everything about him indicates that he's probably gay and isn't as self conscious about projecting a manly image.

Europeans are different in that there are many straight men who openly embrace the "feminine" aspect of skating. For the longest time, I thought Plushenko was gay b/c I didn't think straight men could move like that to Michael Jackson. I never bought into the fact that Urmanov was gay b/c I don't care how many ruffles you put the man in , he does not move feminine. Plushenko goes out of his way to embrace feminine movement in incorporating the Biellmann spin and spirals. Viktor Petrenko did a layback spin.

I think the contention that the Europeans are more avant garde and more open to trying new and different programme ideas is a good one. Take the French; if the French skaters have a particular attitude or character that they want to express in their programmes, they'll very often work directly with composers like Maxim Rodrigues on getting that character (look at anything Abitbol/Bernadis performed to). I think that that artistic focus is a real hallmark of the European skaters.

I'm starting to think that what I'm regarding as a "European style" is more a difference in aesthetics between Europe and N. America in terms of skating. N. Americans tend to go for big extremes in their skating, focusing more on music dynamics (at least in terms of the men and the ice dancers, though this doesn't apply to all N. Americans). European, I think, lean more towards a well-rounded, complete package in their skating (like Lambiel, to use the example that has come up all throughout the thread )

In the book Culture on Ice by Ellen Kestnbaum (my favorite book on skating -- buy it!), there is a long section on the history of the development of the "Continental" or "Viennese" style versus the "British/American" style of skating. Ironically, the foremost champion of the emerging Continental style was the ex-patriot American show skater Jackson Haines.

Haines was trained in ballet and had performed in various capacities in variety shows. His "emphasis on body line and the position of arms and legs -- including the spin in sitting position, which he invented -- and his use of theatrical costuming delighted (European) audiences but drew scorn from American skating experts who found his skating technique wanting and considered his posing and theatricalism to be mere 'fancy skating' rather than a serious demonstration of skill...."

"The difference in reception Haines encountered in the English-speaking countries and on the Continent is attributable to fundamental difference in how the various nationalities approached the sport. The 'English style' (and the somewhat less advanced version of it practiced in America) focused on the scientific development of skating technique.

"For the Viennese or 'International' style, as it came to be known, developed in the wake of Jackson Haines' sojourn in Vienna, by contrast, the gracefulness and expressiveness of the skater's movement to the eyes of the spectators took precedence, with music a popular adjunct to the practice, inspiring skaters to think of what they were doing as dancing on ice."

In short: "To the Viennese, skating meant primarily something to see, to the English it meant something to do."

BTW, to follow up on Soogar’s comments about "masculine" and "feminine" influences in the sport, Kestnbaum classifies "being looked at" on the historically feminine side of the ledger, and "doing something" on the masculine side. Thus men's figure skating will never be regarded as a "masculine" sport because this aspect of figure skating as "something pretty to gaze upon" came to dominate both the men's and the women's side of the sport.

Well, that's the postmodern-neofeminist view, anyway.

Mathman

I read bits and pieces of Culture on Ice and I saw how she categorized Vanessa Gusmeroli (even dealing with the same program I mentioned). Americans tend to cookie cutter skaters. Ie. all ladies skaters have to be feminine or else. When Tonya competed against Kristi in 1989, Tonya was a really crisp skater yet Kristi still beat Tonya in the long program even though Tonya had stronger edges, more speed and better jumps b/c Tonya did not fit that graceful mold (especially her body type). I notice that there really doesn't seem to be diversity in US ladies skating. In order to win, you have to fit the ice princess mold.

I notice that there is a real diversity among th European women in terms of body type and forms of expression. One trend is that European women are percieved by American commentators as having a choppy style (Dick, Peg, Scotty). I notice that many European skaters adopt shortened movements across the ice and don't focus on holding their positions the way American skaters do. Europeans also skate with more energy. A lot of posters get on about Sokolova's quality of skating. Sokolova doesn't have the clean presentation that MK or Fumie does, however her short choppy movements fit her style of skating and give her a presence of great energy on the ice. A lot has been made of Irina's improved artisty yet she too is very choppy across the ice and does not hold her body positions for long. She gives me the impression of frenetic energy.

One thing I don't understand is why is there so much homophobia in American skating? For one thing, there are lots of gay officials, coaches and choreographers in skating and most of them are openly gay. Plus gay skaters do very well with audiences b/c they like artistic skating. most Americans appreciate Johnny Weir's skating even though he's not masculine and there are lots of homophobes who would drop everything and watch Brian Boitano skate. Brian, who might be gay but has never come out of the closet, is a powerful, athletic skater who is very artistic. Brian has never looked like a fairy on the ice. However he does not embrace feminine elements in his skating. Brian is an athletic line skater who conquers the ice with his spread eagles and edges.

I would say that Elena's movements work better with certain musical selections (as for any skater, probably). I wish she would move away from heavy music (her LP), I don't think it highlights her strengths very well. I thought her "Samson & Delilah" SP last year was wonderful (03 Worlds). She skated with such spark and flare and really seemed to enjoy the music. The somewhat "choppy" style she has worked well with that music....especially in the footwork section, which was quite exciting. As for Irina, I find that she has that choppy style to a much greater degree than Sokolova. However, she has come a long way since her World bronze in 1996. She was extremely frantic then. Now, I find there are so many moments to enjoy in her skating. She holds out moves far longer than she used to (especially her spirals). I really enjoyed her SPs from 2000-2002. They were more smoothly executed, but still allowed Slutskaya to showcase that natural exuberance that makes her skating exciting.

Soogar,

I think the wave of homophobia in skating only reflects what is to be found in our American culture. I'm sure things have improved somewhat, but the latest issue (gay marriage) has shown once again that homosexuality is still an explosive subject that is viewed with intense negativity by so many. As to why it seems to have permeated the skating community, well, I don't really see how it couldn't. Athletes are now expected to be role models and spokespeople, and I just don't think you'll find many major companies, corporations, etc. that would endorse an openly gay athlete. Hopefully, this will change. A good person is a good person, period. But, I still think that is the state of things and can, in part, explain why so many male skaters don't want that stigma.

Skating & homosexuality

There is another dimension to skating & homophobia. Straight men (even non-homophobic ones) are often quite terrified of being identified as gays. I don't know why, I just know it is so. So fewer man want to skate, as they just don't want to be identified as "gay".

Re: Skating & homosexuality

Ptichka said:

There is another dimension to skating & homophobia. Straight men (even non-homophobic ones) are often quite terrified of being identified as gays. I don't know why, I just know it is so. So fewer man want to skate, as they just don't want to be identified as "gay".

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I assume it's largely because of the stigma they fear they'll have to endure. Aswell as purely not wanting people to think they're something they're not (nothing wrong with that, doesn't mean they're homophobic), if the situation re: gay people is as bad as it's made out, with discrimination etc, then obviously nobody wants to be treated like that. Even straight skaters like Michael Weiss are constantly ridiculed by fans and people assert that he might be gay - and it may be playful but it's also negative. I personally don't see why the sexuality of any skater is an issue. But if a straight male skater knows that by putting himself in this situation (ie. being a skater and being "artistic") that he'll be putting himself up for this sort of attention and insinuation - you can't blame them for not wanting it.