- Joined
- Aug 31, 2003
At least Russian skaters all skated well, compare to Vancouver were north Americans got huge support from judges in Mens and Ice dance
At least Russian skaters all skated well, compare to Vancouver were north Americans got huge support from judges in Mens and Ice dance
Hanyu was given a sudden boost in PCS, double Sotnikova's, so his PCS was leveled with Chan.
It is fair because a technically more challenging program takes greater skating skills, strength, agility, etc., to skate.
Who else today can skate at their level of BV? So yes, their higher PCS is earned too.
As for Julia vs Mao, didn't Mao win GPF, even with a fall in the LP, due to higher PCS, even though Julia skated better, with higher TES? Mao's PCS advantage over Julia's was +14, with that kind of cushion, Mao could fall 3 more times and the GPF win is still guaranteed. So for Hanyu at GPF, and at this Olympics for Adelina and Julia, it would be humanly impossible for them to beat Chan, Mao or Yuna if their PCS gap remains unchanged.
It is also untrue to say that with lower BV, Yuna cannot beat Sotnikova. Just look at the Men's Olympics LP. After Hanyu botched his skate, everyone thought that Chan would win OGM. If Chan had skated a clean LP, even with a lower BV, he would have, well, the rest is history.
Higher PCS is a guarantee, it's points already in the bag. Higher TES BV still NEEDS to be racked up in the performance, to be earned through punishing training, through flawless delivery when it counts.
Yuna could of course have raised her own BV to include say, a 3loop. That would be a greater insurance of her second OGM. She knew Adelina's layout, she could have up her game, as GPF showed that 20 points PCS cushion for reigning champions like Chan could vanish in an instance when a younger challenger like Hanyu stepped up.
What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv
Again, this is not accurate since Men's PCS are factored by 2 and Ladies' by 1.6. Also, you're comparing bad (TEB) vs. very good (GPF) competitions for Yuzuru and good (Europeans) vs. very good (Olympics) competitions for Adelina. For a more accurate comparison, you could take Adelina's Cup of China FS.
Skating skills have nothing whatsoever to do with jumps difficulty. please refer to: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf
Base value has nothing to do with PCS.
Across both programs, Mao's TES was 101.32 and Yulia's 101.77, so Yulia was barely ahead in TES. Why should she have beaten Mao when she's also clearly behind in PCS?
I didn't say that. What I said was that as long as Adelina went clean (or almost clean, as it were), Yuna could't have beat her no matter how well she skated. This shouldn't have happened, since Yuna's advantage in PCS should have compensated for Adelina's advantage in TES. The fact that this was in reality a close competition was not reflected in the scores that had Adelina winning the FS by more than 5 points.
You seem to think that PCS is some throwaway mark that is gifted to veteran skaters on the basis of longevity and reputation when in reality those of them that are getting high PCS had to work throughout their careers to improve their overall quality of skating in order to receive them. Honing the skills required to get good PCS takes just as much effort and training as improving in jumps and spins, or else they'd all have the skating skills of a Carolina Kostner or a Patrick Chan, for example. This is why I find your reasoning that younger skaters should automatically be given those types of marks just to they can be competitive a bit weird. If they are at a disadvantage in PCS, they are free to maximize their TES and/or actually improve their skating to the point where they earn higher marks.
If she executed the 3loop well, she would have earned at least 5+ more points, enough for gold, as this is almost exactly the marks by which she lost to Adelina.Yuna doesn't do a 3Loop because of injury. it wouldn't have mattered anyway, since she wouldn't have beaten Adelina here even with a 3Loop.
This is the last time for any interaction with you. First of all, you made a false accusation that I was spamming.
Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?
This is your strawman, I didn't say they did, yet it was you who said Hanyu skated badly at TEB so his PCS was lower, etc..
Again, what exactly is your point? Mao messed up her SP, to 16th place! If she hadn't, then with her LP, she would have beaten Yulia and possibly even Yuna to be OGM.
It is enough, I have made my point, there's no need to continue this further and bore others.
What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv
I remember the guy repeatedly saying Kim deserved gold after her FS, and then there was some silence after her score was revealed.
This is the last time for any interaction with you. First of all, you made a false accusation that I was spamming. Even if you refuse to acknowledge the numbers doesn't mean they are not there for all to see, you insist that one is legitimate but the other isn't based on nothing but your own bias and prejudice. There's no point in furthering the conversation with such lack of respect for honesty, facts and consistency. You keep making allegations without putting out your PROOF.
Going further back till you get a Sotnikova PCS inflation that satisfies your personal bias, ie., shifting your goal posts, then one competition before TEB (Nov 15) at SC (Oct 24), Hanyu's LP PCS was even lower, so the jump in PCS that Hanyu benefited from was also greater, and so on.
Let's compare LP PCS
Adelina went from 60(CoC)-69(Euro)-74(Sochi), Hanyu from 76(SC)-81(TEB)-92(GPF)
TES, Adelina went from 50 (CoC) to 75 (highest), +25, Hanyu from 87 (SC) to 102 (highest) +15
BOTH benefited from rising PCS, BUT
Adelina's TES marks also markedly improved, from 50 at Cup of China to 62 at Euro 2014 to 75 at Sochi, a +25 pt TES increase, so her skating improved rapidly overall.
Hanyu's TES was 87 (SC) to 102 (GPF) to 89 at Sochi, so in fact his technical elements only improved by +15 compared to Adelina's +25!!
Hanyu's PCS rose much faster than his TES improvement, whereas Adelina's PCS rose much slower than her TES improvement!
So whose PCS rose faster?
Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?
This is your strawman, I didn't say they did, yet it was you who said Hanyu skated badly at TEB so his PCS was lower, etc..
Again, what exactly is your point? Mao messed up her SP, to 16th place! If she hadn't, then with her LP, she would have beaten Yulia and possibly even Yuna to be OGM.
You don't make sense at all...a skater with higher BV will always beat one with lower BV?
And right there at the very same Olympics, Hanyu with his insanely difficult LP and high BV, much higher than Chan's, would have lost if Chan had not skated even worse. There you go, higher BV doesn't mean you win lower BV....urgh...isn't this rudimentary knowledge??!! Hanyu, by falling and making many mistakes, because you know, his program was DIFFICULT, handed Chan the gold and Chan LOST it because he couldn't skate his easier program clean. If he had, then Gold is HIS.
A more difficult program is, you know, more difficult to skate well. So Hanyu and Sot took much higher risks than Kim or Chan, they are more likely to fall, to mess up their skate. A higher BV isn't the same as a higher PCS, because they still HAVE to go and earn those TES marks, undergo punishing body-breaking training to execute those quad and triple combos, etc. unlike PCS which are already *in the bag* on the day of competition, no efforts needed. If they have to close 20+ PCS gap, it's not even at all humanly possible for them to EVER get gold, no matter how much higher they try to push their BV, how many more quads or triple combos do you want to make them jump.??
Like Fernandez said when asked about his strategy for closing the gap with Chan, "Do 10 quads?"
It is only with a level PCS playing field that competitions are FAIR, i.e. a better skater wins based on a better skate.
Who says these PCS were "automatically gifted"? Are you saying that Hanyu and Sotnikova didn't work their body parts off to get to their current PCS? Why were they falling all over their programs before they finally got them right? They're skating more difficult contents to try to beat the reigning champions. If they fall, mess up, etc. they still lose.
I was at first shocked at the inflation of PCS Hanyu received at GPF, there were threads about it, but I concluded then that it will be battle of TES at Olympics. There was a decision beginning with GPF to level the PCS playing field for the new rank of young skaters, and I agreed with the decision. Imagine a 100 m race where Usain Bolt is given a 5m advantage at the next Olympics...because well, he's a veteran and he earned it! He trained for many more years than the new guys! Only in figure skating....
If she executed the 3loop well, she would have earned at least 5+ more points, enough for gold, as this is almost exactly the marks by which she lost to Adelina.
It is enough, I have made my point, there's no need to continue this further and bore others.
I know i'm a big fan of a bunch of Russian skaters, But i do want to get a focused debate going on this, Before the heavy competition starts:
-Did the Russian skaters benefit a bit too much in PCS?
-Did the crowd influence the judges a bit too much?
-Did the judges penalize a little less for Russian skaters who made borderline mistakes and so so executions ?
-Have non Russian skaters who are threatening Russian ones been over scrutinized ?
Possible examples so far:
-P\B of France having the biggest technical base mark of the night, But losing to B\S of Russia on PCS and GOE, a placing which cost France it's 5th place in the finals.
-Plushenko having a good clean skate, with high 8's for PCS placing him over Chan of Canada with a flawed skate, Which wouldn't of happened with a couple less points for said PCS.
-Osmond of Canada (Russia's main rival) going clean but finishing 5th with low 7's for PCS.
-D\R of Canada getting high 7's for PCS for a very risky and inventive SP, while Russian mega favorites V\T getting high 9's.
-Lipnitskaya of Russia getting + 1.40 for her Lutz combo, Which in every other competition this year got -1's because of it's takeoff, Thus finishing ahead of Clean Kostner.
-Plushenko getting +GOE for his wonky triple axle.
I don't know why qwerty keeps bringing up Hanyu. What does that have to do with this conversation? Is his argument that skaters are entitled to inflated PCS scores, or that everyone gets overmarked on PCS in general?
What I'm afraid of is the trend of super hyper inflation will continue for other host, So Yon Park and Hajin might be podium contender in 2018.
Polina Edmunds the other fifteen year old received much lower PCS even though she is much more refined in her jumps and musical expression than Julia. Polina has a decent double axel unlike Julia that obviously doesn't matter since half the judges were from Eastern Europe.
Agreed that I finally felt I understood the recent PCS inflation, and accepted it. Yes, it doesn't seem fair for the younger ones to "catch up" with the veterans, but how else will they ever stand a chance? If they are convinced that they will get to skate on a more level playing rink, it is more likely that they will throw in their best performance and up the ante. Otherwise, it's a vicious cycle. I thought KIm wasn't as good as Vancouver 2010, but she's still excellent. It's the program that wasn't as impressive, and it didn't allow her to bring her A game, and Sot did.
Salt Lake City
Gold for Hughes??? 5,6 for Slutskaya's artistry))) Scandalous second gold for Canadians...
Vancouver
Scandalous scores for Chan, Dube/Davidson, bronze for Rochette... Gold for safe Evan with no quad?
It happens every time.
What you guys are saying is double standards. You're ok with winnings of those who are immature, young but North Americans (Lipinski, Hughes, Gold) or mature but not good enough in TES as long as they're North Americans (Evan, Rochette...).
All the underrotations and falls will not be counted for Russians and will be for others. Face it! Nobody's going to rob those who truly deserve it. If they don't fall. Men: Hanyu or Chan, Women: Mao or Yu-Na. Pairs: VT or SS. Ice dance: VM or DW.
VT will win if they don't make major mistakes. What's wrong with that? BS or IK will get the bronze if they are 100% clean. Julia and Adelina will medal if they're clean, can win if Mao and Yu-Na make mistakes.
What's wrong with that?