What makes the greatest skaters just that? | Golden Skate

What makes the greatest skaters just that?

What makes the greatest skaters just that?

  • Excellent competitor--best under pressure and always "brings it"

    Votes: 15 15.6%
  • Equally brilliant technically and artistically--"the whole package"

    Votes: 43 44.8%
  • Consistency over an unusually long career

    Votes: 7 7.3%
  • Pushes the envelope technically--and, in doing so, pushes the sport forward

    Votes: 3 3.1%
  • Consummate artist, lyrical skater, though not necessarily a great jumper

    Votes: 13 13.5%
  • Communicates effectively with and moves audiences

    Votes: 11 11.5%
  • Other (please describe)

    Votes: 4 4.2%

  • Total voters
    96

sarahmistral

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Okay, after reading the "greatest lady skater of all time", it occurred to me that there are many different, equally valid criteria for deciding a skater is "the greatest". So, what makes this interesting for me is what, for each fan, defines such a champion.
 

sarahmistral

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Go figure...had all the time in the world to edit, but I rushed to post and missed two things...

1. I don't actually mention awards, but I figure that the "excellent competitor" would amass the ton of awards, as would the winners in the "consistency" department...which leads me to point two...

2. These can obviously overlap, but I still feel that for many people, one of these qualities tends to stick out in their mind as what they feel their favorite skater or pick for best ever has over other skaters. I guess there could have been an option for "some or all of the above"...unfortunately I can't edit this poll myself (moderators, help!!!!!:) ) Wow, imagine a skater with all of the above!!!!

Sarah
 

mike79

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Excellent question. I chose the first option because more often than not the greatest are measured on how well they do in the Olympics and/or Worlds, although it is not always the case i.e. Paul Wylie, although he did 'bring' it at the Olympics in Albertville.

I agree with you that a lot of these categories could overlap with each other. It's so hard to pick just one.
 

RealtorGal

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I think it's a combination of choice #1 and #3. Unfortunately, many skaters actually have the total package (gosh, I really hate that word) but can't get it together when it counts for all the marbles. Think Sandhu.
 

sarahmistral

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Thanks Mike79--I'm glad someone besides me liked my question:laugh: ; that was my logic in choosing as well. It's funny how there's our own personal preference, and I find the most popular one among skating fans across the board to be #3, "the total package" skater, but most often what stands up against the test of time is how decorated a competitor is. In our era of extensive video footage of skating being available for the latter part of the 20th century through the present and future, I think the actual qualities of the skaters come into play more, if not as much as their competitive excellence and resulting records. It's funny because, since FS and tennis are my two favorite sports, I tend to compare them a lot and I was just reading an article on the criteria used to determine who the top ten female tennis players of all time were--it was pointed out that the greatest champions are the ones whose champion qualities produce results, so the results are the clearest indicators of who the greats are...far from being that clear in skating, which makes questions/conundrums like this one fun to discuss, I think:)

ITA RealtorGal on #1 & #3 being part of determining "the greatest"; in fact, I was just rereading the poll options I chose before I saw your post, thinking about how, as much as I (and, as I said above, probably the majority of fans) love a skater who's the best artist AND the best technician rolled into one (will avoid further mention of the "package":) ), how that's absolutely useless when it comes to getting the results, the wins that every competitor prizes as much as developing their craft to the fullest, probably because the development and the recognition necessarily go hand in hand, officially recognizing the hard-won accomplishment of a skater--the official reason they compete, if not the only reason they skate (the case with the true greats, the ones who stay in our hearts, I think--those who treat their chosen sport as an art and an end in itself, not just a competition--but who can also stand up and "bring" their high art to the competition and be fierce competitors--an interesting combination of qualities/approaches)...so yeah, to be less long-winded (than I usually am LOL), 1 and 3 :laugh:


Sarah
 

icenut84

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I think it's an interesting question too :) and I don't think there's any one answer. To me, Midori Ito is one of the greatest skaters ever, and so is Oksana Baiul, for very different reasons - I think Midori is the best female jumper ever and also had terrific other elements. I also think Oksana is one of the most artistic and expressive skaters ever, and she had amazing speed and some great elements. Two totally different skaters, both amazing. Neither racked up the medals (both won big events, but neither won big events year in year out). Does this mean they weren't great skaters? No. Does the possibility that the pressure got to Midori post-figures mean she wasn't great? No. Does the fact that Oksana left eligible skating at 16 mean she wasn't great? No.

Ideally, all of those factors you listed would be there, but the absence of one or two of them does not mean the skater isn't great. In fact, someone like Sasha Cohen proves you can be a great skater without being the best competitor or the most consistent. Michelle Kwan proves you can be a great skater without pushing the envelope technically. Torvill & Dean proved you could be a great skater by having the "complete package" of technical and artistry, and hard work bringing the medals to back it up. Kurt Browning proved you could be a great skater despite not winning an Olympic medal. There are so many variables. And there are so many great skaters, all of who bring something different, which I think is great :)

(I don't think "great competitor" necessarily equals "great skater" though. It shows consistency, but it doesn't automatically mean that person is a great *skater*.)

ETA: my comments on Sasha & Michelle are not at all related to what they might do at the Worlds, as I havent' seen any of worlds yet. So don't worryy, no spoilers or anything. :) )
 
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sarahmistral

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Good points, icenut84, and great examples too:love: I think what piqued my curiosity and gave me the idea for this poll was wondering what criteria people were picking when they voted on "greatest skater ever" polls and had to select just one, which, as we've seen in this discussion, is something that goes against the complex nature of skating--so many different arguments can be made for choosing a greatest, but yours, citing many different skaters who are great for different reasons, is probably the more realistic type of answer, as it is probably the product of the fundamental differences between skating versus sports in which a "greatest" is easier to pick (Michael Jordan, Martina Navratilova, New York Yankees, etc.), the artistic element, the relative infrequency (don't even know if that's a word:) ) of competition as against a tennis, basketball, or football schedule (which upps the ante pressure-wise), etc...
 
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
I voted other.
For me, I like a skater who is artistically brilliant, technically decent, has "in between" moves that go with the music and who just knows how to totally reach into the audience and pull you in whether they're doing a serious program or a fun program.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I like NJSk8Fan's take. I voted for "consumate artist," but it was between that and "draws in the audience." Janet Lynn would be a good example -- a great skater without necessarily having won a lot of hardware.

Mathman
 

Kasey

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I picked the "consummate artist". I appreciate jumps, and know they are necessary for competitions. But to me, a great skater is one who can do no jumps at all, and you don't miss them or even realize they aren't there. They touch the audience, they relate, they have moves, choreography, footwork, positions, posture, smoothness and speed. To me, the jumps are the least important thing in the program.

Kasey
 
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
You said it better than I did Kasey--that's an explanation I would've used if I could've thought of it!
 

aliaschick

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
I picked communicates effictively with audience. Good jumps make someone a good skater. If they can truly connect with their audience, that makes them great to those people. The skaters I think are great are the ones who connected with and moved me.
 

TMC8802

Spectator
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
What Makes a Great Skater

I think that you definitely have to be first and foremost a passionate artist who connects with the audience and draws them in...you also have to be technically great...and you have to be able to bring it when it counts...it's a combination of a couple of the choices listed so i chose other

i think of michelle kwan as the greatest skater of all time...she is the quintessential example of those characteristics...brilliant artist, amazing technique and carriage, and the most reliable skater in the world
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
TWO THINGS MAKE THE SKATER GREAT - TECHNIQUE AND STYLE

It does not necessarily get them gold medals but it does show that those skaters have done their job.

If you really look at skaters (other than quads and bielmans) you should be able to see their solid (or unsolid) technique and the personal style of lack thereof.

There are many skaters who lack one or more of these qualities. I will just name Johnny Weir as an example. He has incredible technique in his jumps and spins and his flow over the ice is arguably the best in today's skating, BUT, he doesn't seem to me to have developed a style yet. Hopefully he can.

Joe
 

lil lion 816

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
CONSUMMATE ARTIST...

Consummate artist, lyrical skater, though not necessarily a great jumper...

The jumps help out a great deal, and help to make the sport more "athletic", I agree. BUT - My greatest pleasure is in watching a skater who has the skills, the flow, the edging, and a *purpose* and design to the program they're skating (besides getting from Point A to B, and :00 to 4:30 on the clock). The jumps are secondary to that, IMO - it's "icing on the cake" when they can include the jumps for emphasis and do them well within reason (not talking about triple axels and quads here, LOL). Sad to say, that's pretty rare to see, and you almost never see one break into the upper echelons of skating. Which is a shame, but so long as there's more concentration on counting the triple and quad jumps, that's the way it will remain.

Some of my fave skaters are ones who haven't even won a National title (yet anyway), but I still consider them among the "greatest" skaters I've seen.
 

RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I think it's a hard choice and it certainly depends on the fans too. The greatest skater for the casual fan would be the one who wins the most, for the hardcore fan the greatest skater may not be the one who wins the most. Sandhu doesn't exactly have the best competitive record but how many consider him one of the best? It's not just a matter of looking at the number of the titles or we wouldn't be having this discussion anyway.

Personally, I find the greatest skaters to be #2. There are many who have great jumps, others have great spins, others have excellent presentation, others interpret the music like nobody else... how hard is it to combine all this? Being a good competitor doesn't mean you're an excellent skater, it only means that you can skate to your highest level in competition. It doesn't say anything about what the level is. Consistency is good, but again, getting consistent top 15 finishes at Worlds hardly makes a skater the greatest. It doesn't say much about the skater. Pushing the envelope technically? Does anyone consider Tim Goebel the greatest skater ever? Consummate artist, lyrical skater but not a great jumper... Dancers don't jump so this only aplies to singles and pairs. And in singles and pairs jumps are very important. Sorry, but if a skater can't jump because of bad technique for example, then hardly it can be the greatest. If it's the pressure, then it may be different. Kurt Browning's jumps would sometimes fail when he competed but then he turned pro and many consider him one of the greatest. Good communication with the audience hardly makes anyone the greatest... Steven Cousins is great with the audience and I doubt he can be labelled as one of the greatest.

I'd say the greatest skater would have the complete package, would be a great and consistent competitor who would always try to push the sport at all levels, preferrably with a career (amateur and pro) long enough to accomplish everything and grow as a skater. And of course, having that connection with the crowd allows the skater to stay in their memories. I can find a restrict number of skaters that fit this :)
 

RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Hi Mathman! :) I told you I'd be back :) Haven't been much online, I'm playing catch up now...

Thanks for deleting the other thread, I hit the wrong button LOL And then I deleted everything I wrote before remembering to save it :rolleye: (fortunately there is the 'back' button so I did got the page and my post back :D )

Anyway, not to clutter up the thread anymore LOL This is a great topic and with the off season, any good discussion is welcome LOL
 

apache88

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Great poll, Sarahmistral!

I picked #1 "Excellent Competitor". I strongly feel this is what the skating community (the majority at least) and the non-skating community feel. Why? When I was a total stranger to figure skating, wanting to learn more about Michelle and her sport because I was intrigued by her, I went on and did some good deal amount of research about this sport. What did I hear about those great skaters? Most of them were associated with the major medals they had won. Their essence of skating was always mentioned as a second liner. This didn't really just come from the media but from the record books, history, and commentators.

This is not all surprising come to think of it, afterall figure skating is a sport and all sports measure the greatness by wins. There are exceptions of course but, as always, exceptions are rare.

Exceptions for figure skating whose skating has transcended medals are Janet Lynn, Kurt Browning to name just two. What about Michelle? She is completely different. Do people remember her because of her medals? Yes, tons and tons of them. What about her longevity? Yes. Total package? Yes. Pushing the evelope? Yes, remember who raised the technical bar to 6-7 triples and 2 lutzes for LP and the 3flip for SP, nevermind that she has stopped raising the technical bar in the last few years. Does Michelle transcend medals? A big resounding YES. Which non-champion has become more popular than the champion and received equal endorsements if not more, not once but twice? What's amazing is Michelle is equally remembered for her skating as she is for her medals and longevity. Also, I would like to point out that for every choice that there is for this poll, Michelle has it.

Back to my point, take Michelle, Janet Lynn and the likes aside, it is still the medals that make a skater great. It applies to every sport. And greatness is not determined by the fans alone, otherwise every skater is great as they all have their fair share of fans who think they are great. Greatness is determined collectively by the skating community that's comprised of the peers in the sport, the ex-skaters, the sport's analysts, the fans and the media.

Sorry for rambling, usually I just don't know how to shut up when it comes to threads I like.:laugh:
 
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sarahmistral

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Gee thanks, Apache88!! (Blushing:) ) I really like the points you made, and they further serve to nuance a poll like this--everyone has special criteria for choosing their favorites, but the "greatest" usually has to be decorated to some extent, because if that weren't the case, then people would be turning out in droves to see the greatest, best all around skater who never won anything, just to watch them skate in practice. I think medaling is a minimum prerequisite for "greatness", if it wasn't then when would we be able to behold this greatness? Greatness should include ability to compete as well as actual skating quality, a far more subjective criterion...I'm totally with you on that. Then there's the issue of who's my favorite and whose skating style do I like regardless of whether they won any medals--but how do we find out such a skater exists if they can't even make the final group--all we get on TV in the us:mad:;)

Again, great points apache, and thanks for liking my post:)

Sarah
 
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