What exactly is the definition of a jump??? (re Jason Brown)

LiamForeman · Feb 15, 2014

As far as I could see he went from a LFOE to a LBIE and his blade never left the ice. How in the world is that considered a jump??? That's not even a waltz jump!

Sorry if this is discussed in the 103 pages of the Men's FS. I couldn't find it. He got rooked.

Ziggy · Feb 15, 2014

He stepped into the axel though so he started the jump take-off.

CarneAsada · Feb 15, 2014

It was scored as "A" which sometimes happens when a skater does a jump entry but aborts the jump. For example a skater once aborted a 3F at 2009 TEB as her toe pick was coming down, the element was called F.

Ziggy · Feb 15, 2014

It was called 'A' because he did an axel entry and aborted the jump at the last minute as he lost his balance. So it was called an Axel with zero revolutions.

If a skater does a loop entry but then at the last moment wobbles and doesn't take off, the element will be called 'Lo.'

I guess the question is, when does the jump 'officially start?' When a skater steps in and starts pre-rotating their body?

LiamForeman · Feb 15, 2014

So if I'm riding a long lutz edge, reach back but realize I'm too close to the boards and abandon it, that COUNTS as a jumping pass?

Ziggy · Feb 15, 2014

LiamForeman said:
So if I'm riding a long lutz edge, reach back but realize I'm too close to the boards and abandon it, that COUNTS as a jumping pass?

My guess is (and I would love confirmation for a Technical Specialist on this as well):

If you started pre-rotating your body and moving your free foot towards the ice to plant the toe-pick in = 'Lz'
If you were skating backwards on an outside edge, raised your free leg but then aborted it before doing the above = no call

zamboni step · Feb 15, 2014

LiamForeman said:
So if I'm riding a long lutz edge, reach back but realize I'm too close to the boards and abandon it, that COUNTS as a jumping pass?

http://youtu.be/t8akfCowZ94?t=1m4s

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra09/gpfra09_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Another example of the take-off preparation counting as a jumping pass.

LiamForeman · Feb 15, 2014

zamboni step said:
http://youtu.be/t8akfCowZ94?t=1m4s

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra09/gpfra09_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Another example of the take-off preparation counting as a jumping pass.

Wow. Thanks. Obviously Scottie had no idea either. But when does he know anything...

Crylais · Feb 15, 2014

zamboni step said:
http://youtu.be/t8akfCowZ94?t=1m4s

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra09/gpfra09_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Another example of the take-off preparation counting as a jumping pass.

In that case do you think it would be wiser to take the jump, receive -ve GOE and possibly a fall deduction than get like a 0?

Assuming Yuna makes the rotation and receives -3 GOE and does say stack it she still gets 3.2 for the jump and a -1 deduction?

Still amazed that she still won by a huge margin despite not getting those 5-6 possible points.

karne · Feb 15, 2014

Personally I think it's a dumb rule, and I'm not just saying that because Jason got messed with. I've always thought it was a dumb rule. If they get in the air, fine. The second their blade leaves the ice, go for it. But when they don't even take off....that's stupid.

CarneAsada · Feb 15, 2014

RE what counts and doesn't count for a Lutz attempt, here is an example of a skater who stumbled on preceding footwork and did not do the Lutz. It wasn't called as an attempt.

Crylais said:
In that case do you think it would be wiser to take the jump, receive -ve GOE and possibly a fall deduction than get like a 0?

Assuming Yuna makes the rotation and receives -3 GOE and does say stack it she still gets 3.2 for the jump and a -1 deduction?

At Skate America 2009, her fall on a 3F< got her 1.7-1.0 points and the 1.0 fall deduction left her 0.3 points in the hole. A fall on a rotated 3F would have gotten 5.5-3-1 or 1.5 points.

Crylais · Feb 15, 2014

CarneAsada said:
RE what counts and doesn't count for a Lutz attempt, here is an example of a skater who stumbled on preceding footwork and did not do the Lutz. It wasn't called as an attempt.

At Skate America 2009, her fall on a 3F< got her 1.7-1.0 points and the 1.0 fall deduction left her 0.3 points in the hole. A fall on a rotated 3F would have gotten 5.5-3-1 or 1.5 points.

Thanks for the details. Sorry I am sort of new to figure skating. I thought with a -3 GOE for the 3F it's only about -2.1?

I can sort of see why she wouldn't attempt the 3F though as it seems to be her biggest trouble just like Patrick Chan with the 3A.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 15, 2014

For everyone complaining about it, it was clear that Brown skidded off his jumping edge, so that's when the jump was started. The judges clearly make a distinction between when a jump is started (e.g. when Hanyu does a pirouette preceding his lutz sequence, it's not counted as the entry into an axel). I knew immediately that he would be dinged for two jumping passes when I saw it, and felt bad because I knew that his final triple would be negated. When Plushenko skidded out of his 3L at that Euros (?), it would have been counted as a jumping pass.

I think the point at which the jump is taking off, as evidenced by a distinguishable set-up, is when the element is recorded.

Frenchie · Feb 15, 2014

Great thread, very interesting point...
Whether the 0A of Jason would be considered a jump or not, I was a bit surprised at the way the judges (technical panel) chose to rank it:
They could also have said "0A2A was a jump sequence", hence invalid element but only 1 element, hence the 3Lo counts. Since the 3Lo is worth more, that would have been better for Jason. And in dubio pro reo, right?
Also, given what happened to Yuzuru Hanyu: 3Lz1Lo3S where the 3S was worth 0 points because he had both feet on the ice for too long before the take-off.
If using those same criteria as they did for Jason, shouldn't they have said:
"3Lz1Lo ... and then, new jumping pass: 3S" ?
So in Yuzuru's case, the last 3Lz would have been the 9th jumping pass, hence worth 0 points...

I know it's all very tricky for the judges to decide, but I thought that was inconsistent of the judges between the 21st skater and the 24th skater that night...
Brown: "that thing" he did after the jumping pass was a 2A
Hanyu: "that thing" he did after the jumping pass (3S) was nothing, it never happened. ???

LiamForeman · Feb 15, 2014

You know Frenchie, you're right. I didn't think about that. Why didn't Hanyu's 3S get called as another jumping pass like Jason's 2axel? Very inconsistent judging to say the least.

I think Jason already had his 3 combinations completed so he couldn't get credit for a 0axel-2axel sequence. (I find the thought of being credited with a "0axel" quite hilarious, personally.... lol)

Frenchie · Feb 15, 2014

LiamForeman said:
I think Jason already had his 3 combinations completed so he couldn't get credit for a 0axel-2axel sequence.

Sorry, I didn't specify why it would have been invalid when I said

They could also have said "0A2A was a jump sequence", hence invalid element but only 1 element, hence the 3Lo counts.

It would have been the 4th jump sequence.

LiamForeman · Feb 15, 2014

Okay, I understand. You make an even better point.

Crylais · Feb 15, 2014

I believe they didn't count Hanyu's 3S as part of sequence or an individual jump though. The 3S is definitely worth less than the 3Lz but I am not sure if that would have made a difference to who won the OGM. It would however made Chan win the FS.

LiamForeman · Feb 15, 2014

I guess the reason I started this thread is that I always assessed a jump by the TAKE-OFF. (OFF meaning you get OFF the ice...) If there is no take-off how in the world can it count as a jump? I am even more flummoxed by Yuna Kim's 2009 Lalique video (thank you!). She never picked in. How is that a jump? I've practiced lutzes and prefer a long edge takeoff but sometimes I get behind the 8ball and get too close to the boards, so if I reached back with my picking leg but then realize it just AIN'T gonna happen, I can't imagine that counting as a jump. They should consider my long BOE and right back 'spiral' as a MITF, certainly not a jump if I never get off the ice, or even attempt to get off the ice. Apparently not.

LiamForeman · Feb 15, 2014

Crylais said:
I believe they didn't count Hanyu's 3S as part of sequence or an individual jump though. The 3S is definitely worth less than the 3Lz but I am not sure if that would have made a difference to who won the OGM. It would however made Chan win the FS.

But that's the point Frenchie is making. Why totally disregard Hanyu's 3sal as if it never happened? The judges certainly didn't pretend that Jason's 2axel didn't happen. Why didn't they just pretend Jason's 2axel after his "0axel" didn't happen and let the 3loop count? Funny and inconsistent judging, that's for sure. I mean, it was so nice to see Jason succeed so much this season, beyond his wildest dreams I'm sure. I was delighted to see his happy reaction to making top ten in the Olympics and you could see it was genuine. Sure if he hit in the FS he might have won bronze, but he's got many years ahead of him, and it seemed almost every jumping pass had some issue, so he was tight. I liked his happiness in the K/C.

What exactly is the definition of a jump??? (re Jason Brown)

LiamForeman

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Ziggy

CarneAsada

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LiamForeman

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Crylais

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LiamForeman

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Frenchie

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