A signal, according to Callaghan | Page 3 | Golden Skate

A signal, according to Callaghan

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think the only messages the judges sent Michelle were, don't fall down in the qualifying round and don't go over the time limit in the short.

I love grassy knoll theories as much as anyone, but in this instance it seemed to me that the judges were more interested in judging a figure skating contest than in sending "messages" to anyone.

I think Mpal's observation might be right. That Callaghan made his comment after Michelle received her marks but before Mr. Hofmann explanined the deduction. In that case Callaghan was merely saying that he was surprised that Michelle's marks were so low -- what are they saying, that she ought to retire or something?

Mathman
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
I think Callaghan's remarks were also directed at the Japanese federation (the "rich American" comment) reflecting his bitterness at being fired as Arakawa's coach (after her successful GP, GPF and Japanese Nationals results) and then being offered Onda as a replacement.

There was a Japanese judge on the QA and SP panels, but no US judge.
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
BTW, Michelle knows all too well that she has to chalk up her bronze medal to her own subpar performance in the QR, because the SP time deduction, although upsetting, really didn't have a net effect on where she ended up. She wasn't going to beat Arakawa's FS, and the best she could finish because of her QR performance was bronze.

She has learned some important lessons from this Worlds: (1) be sure to time your SP so that it is at least .3-.4 seconds under 2.40, for insurance and (2) arrive at the competition well-rehearsed and put in maximum practice time BEFORE the QR on the ice where the QR is to be skated (3) work on those 3/3s.
 

B.O.H.I.C.Astan

Spectator
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Richard Callaghan. Hmmm. I'm sure that if skating wanted to send a message to Michelle the messenger they'd select would not have molestation charges on his resume.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
euterpe said:
She has learned some important lessons from this Worlds: (1) be sure to time your SP so that it is at least .3-.4 seconds under 2.40, for insurance and (2) arrive at the competition well-rehearsed and put in maximum practice time BEFORE the QR on the ice where the QR is to be skated (3) work on those 3/3s.

I wonder if there would be a deduction for a too short programme as well? I don´t know but have always assumed that the programmes do have to have a certain specific length?
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
One more question on the time deduction...

LOL - I'm hesitant to even post more on this topic but here goes.

As stated ad nauseum, I think one of the things most of us find frustrating about the judging in this sport is inconsistent application of the rules. It still cracks me up that the application of the rule in THIS case has caused such a stir.

One thing I'm curious about, and I'm sincere with this question because I honestly don't know. The assumption has been put forward that this time limit rule is broken with some frequency and but rarely enforced. (and if that's the case, it's not right in my opinion) The only specific example I've heard about thus far where the rule was broken and apparently not enforced was Michelle's SP at US Nationals where she was timed at 2:43, at least according to ESPN/ABC. Does anyone know of other specific examples, or a web link or something where detailed information can be found?

I would sure hope that since this particular rule is well within the skater's own control that skaters would be smart enough not to take a risk of a deduction when they have so many other things to focus on. So I really question how often this rule is really broken??

Just curious if anyone has more factual information.

DG
 

dizzydi

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
A signal according to Callaghan

Here's my two cents:

It seems to me that the responsibility of timing a program falls on the coach and the skater. I have heard Kwan call her coach "a genius". He doesn't appear to be as sharp as she claims.

Dizzy
 

Panther2000

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
S & Z(Pairs) for instance, or anyone who skates past the last note of their music. Their music is timed to the second( for the program) During the Long Progams for S &Z. They did about 3 or 4 more poses before they finished their program. ( think they were finishing off their final lift when the music stopped) & anyone else over the years who has skated beyond their music. & sometimes their music is too long & they have to hold their starting position for a few seconds to come under the time limit.


But, whatever it is water under the bridge now. & Michelle showed all she is a legend in the sport. Professional & Grace. She pretty much shrugged it off & focused on the LP( As she should)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
B.O.H.I.C.Astan said:
Richard Callaghan. Hmmm. I'm sure that if skating wanted to send a message to Michelle the messenger they'd select would not have molestation charges on his resume.
?? Callaghan isn't the one sending the message, he is claiming that the judges are sending Michelle a message.

Just to keep the facts up with the rumors, we might recall that the investigation into the charge of inappropriate relations between a coach and a student was dropped without resolution by the USFSA because the allegations were too old. And that the young man in question was over eighteen at the time of the alleged incidents.

Mathman
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Panther...

My understanding of the timing rule is that it has nothing to do with ending on or off the music. It has to do with the lenth of time between the beginning and end of the actual skate. The point here is that if your music is timed to, say, 2:35, that gives you five extra seconds if you do finish after your music. If the music is timed to exactly 2:40, which it appears Michelle's may be, then you have no room for error in terms of ending a second or more after your music.

DG
 

thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
I don't think any messages were sent except for these:

*Michelle, we love you, but if you make a mistake in the QR, we can't hold you up.

*Irina, same thing.

*Miki- grow up some before we put you on the podium.

*Sasha, we love you too, but with a mistake like that in the LP, we can't give you gold...

No retirement messages...
 

adamlondon

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
why all the conspiracy theories?

I think that after watching it LIVE in DOrtmund I thought that Michelle was placed where she was placed in the SP because she deserved to be there. Reagardless of the time penalty her standing would be the same. No doubt Sasha would be in 1st. She really is stunning in the SP as she always is. Shizuka 2nd although she has a slightly cheated triple toe and Ando 3rd because of the triple lutz triple loop. ANdo also has pretty good spins and nice quality and smoothness although she's a bit slow. You know after someone does huge combos like the Japanese it sucks out the energy from the stadium and when MK skates there's a feeling that whatever she does it wont be as technically fabulous as whats happened before. So that gives the viewers like me and the judges a sense of dissapointment almost even before she starts. I thought it was fair judging..
 

Panther2000

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Re: why all the conspiracy theories?

adamlondon said:
I think that after watching it LIVE in DOrtmund I thought that Michelle was placed where she was placed in the SP because she deserved to be there. Reagardless of the time penalty her standing would be the same. No doubt Sasha would be in 1st. She really is stunning in the SP as she always is. Shizuka 2nd although she has a slightly cheated triple toe and Ando 3rd because of the triple lutz triple loop. ANdo also has pretty good spins and nice quality and smoothness although she's a bit slow. You know after someone does huge combos like the Japanese it sucks out the energy from the stadium and when MK skates there's a feeling that whatever she does it wont be as technically fabulous as whats happened before. So that gives the viewers like me and the judges a sense of dissapointment almost even before she starts. I thought it was fair judging..

Just take a look at her scores. With out the deductions. outside ot the retarded 5.1 in the tech. She would have been in 3 or maybe tied for 2nd. Remember, she would have had 4 6.0's in Presentation. & mostly between 5.7 & 5.8 for tech. No one is doubting sasha's SP. & She & Michelle had the same jumps. That was great However, with her skate in the LP. She would have ended up with Silver not bronze. Nothing wrong with the bronze either. But, there was a difference because of the deduction. However, I am glad that they let the deduction stand. Othewise, the boards would be filled with Basher claming that Michelle gets special treatment. This way her medal has no negative scandal attached to her. But, my point is that without the deduction she would have have been 4th but second. Yes, the other ladies had 3/3's but, that was about it. Their Presentations scores would have been much lower.

But, that is water now under the bridge.
 

dfj

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
Re: why all the conspiracy theories?

You know after someone does huge combos like the Japanese it sucks out the energy from the stadium and when MK skates there's a feeling that whatever she does it wont be as technically fabulous as whats happened before. So that gives the viewers like me and the judges a sense of dissapointment almost even before she starts.[/B]


:confused: Then why have a competition at all?

I doubt there are many judges who are "disappointed" after watching MK skate (and I am not a fan). This is just a ridiculous statement.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
ITA the mandatory deductions. I also agree that w/o the deduction, Michelle should be 2nd. Some European commentators thught Shizuka and Ando with their 3/3 should be placed above Sasha and Michelle. I guess I won't challenge that view too much. I however totally don't understand and disagree with the view that Michelle without a 3/3 should be placed behind Ando (even w/o deduction), but Cohen without a 3/3 should be ahead of Shizuka and Ando. This particular view to me is inconsistent, either vote for the jumps or vote for the presentation, and overall package.

Michelle's sp was very good, to me it is a toss up between Sasha and Michelle, and if people think Sasha is one slot ahead of MK I have no problem either.

In summary, IMO without the deduction if the sp goes
SC
MK
SA and
Ando

I agree

With deduction, as judged
SC
SA
Ando
and MK

I agree too.

I do not agree with the thought that even without deduction it should be
SC
SA
Ando and
MK
 
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diamondqueen

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
Sometimes I think Richard Callagha is upset that Michelle is still as popular or more popular then any skater he has ever coached. I think we should not read anythink more into. Michelle is still the star attraction with COI and gets standing O's after every performance. Look at the long at the worlds, they were out of the seats before she was finished. That is a testament to how loved she is. My hats off to the brilliant and still on top of the world Michelle Kwan.......

diamond:love:
 

Seonaid920

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Did anyone see Michelle on The View? She said she was frustrated because she used the same program last season and nobody ever said anything, then at worlds in the practices nobody every said she was over the time limit. I can understand the frustration. Who else was docked for going over time? I've seen loads of skaters finish the final pose after their music but never heard of them taking deductions.

Maybe this happens a lot and we just don't hear about it because it doesn't effect the top 3. Does anyone know?
 
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